I am getting tired of the rampant anti-israeli comments on this board

[BigHarv]

It is possible to distinguish between the two , but why bother, just eliminate the virus.

If you want to look at it that way, the original virus would be the UN mistake of establishing a Jewish state in an area of land surrounded by hostile Arabs.
Similiar to a parasite infecting the host. The Arab countries over the past 60 years or so have been acting like white blood cells trying to rid themselves of this infection.
So why bother, just eliminate Israel according to Lancslad.

 

[DATYdude]

MAO: "Until the Israelis retreat from the settlements, nothing will change. If they do so, they will inspire tremendous support equaling or exceeding the goodwill they are losing in bombing Lebanon. They won't do it of course."

-- they left Gaza last summer
-- they left Lebanon in 2000, and the UN confirmed that they no longer occupied any of Lebanon's territory

 

[basketcase]

I don't agree. There are some of us that are disappointed at
the approach of the US, the EU and Israel.

I personally think we can do better. And, should be held to
a higher standard than those in the ME. We can do much better.
We have no alternative but to criticize ourselves. Lest we be
nothing more than a home town lacky.

Does this mean that you believe that the ME should not be held up to the same higher standard because the can not do better. That seems a trifle racist (or at least elitist), similar to the imperialistic view of "white man's burden"

 

[smyth]

MAO: "Until the Israelis retreat from the settlements, nothing will change. If they do so, they will inspire tremendous support equaling or exceeding the goodwill they are losing in bombing Lebanon. They won't do it of course."

-- they left Gaza last summer
-- they left Lebanon in 2000, and the UN confirmed that they no longer occupied any of Lebanon's territory

in the absence of the peace process unilateral withdrawl doesn't mean anything

Israel: Gaza pullout paves way for further West Bank land grab

http://www.palestinemonitor.org/nueva_web/updates_news/news/gaza_future_landgrab.htm

But the withdrawal from Gaza is nothing more than a smokescreen to mask Israel’s consolidation of a far more significant land grab of the West Bank, land it has brutally occupied for nearly 40 years in breach of international law and in defiance of countless United Nations resolutions.

What do these latest developments mean for the Palestinians? Despite the reams that have been written by the 6,000 media journalists and their support staff that came to cover the Israel’s disengagement from Gaza—nearly as many as the Israeli settlers in Gaza—few have even attempted to address this question. Most coverage has been made up of sympathetic accounts of the plight of the settlers, generally couched in terms either favourable to Sharon or critical of him from the right.

Yet anyone who looked at the context in which the pullout took place would see it as only a stage in a long-standing effort on Sharon’s part to establish a Greater Israel by permanently annexing the large majority of the land seized in the 1967 war.

Already there has been a massive expansion in the number of Israeli settlers in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, where 2.3 million Palestinians live. This is now set to increase. The number of settlers in the West Bank has grown from zero in 1967 to about 246,000 in June 2005—an increase of more than 12,000 (5 percent) in the last year alone. They now form more than 10 percent of the population, but control a far greater percentage of the land, including that which is most fertile and productive.

The number of settlers in East Jerusalem, which Israel formally annexed into West Jerusalem in 1980 and which it routinely excludes from its statistics, has risen from zero in 1967 to 210,000. Together with the quarter of a million settlers in the West Bank, they now form one fifth of the population that lived in what was Jordan in 1967.

These figures have now been boosted by many of the 8,140 settlers displaced from Gaza, who have moved into settlements in and around Jerusalem and Hebron, as well as Ariel in the north of the West Bank.

In addition to the 323 official settlements—that are really heavily guarded colonies from which Palestinians are excluded—there are at least 150 hilltop communities that have incomplete or nonexistent permits, and are therefore illegal even under Israeli law.

 

[DATYdude]

True, it's not like they gave the Palestinians a viable state when they left gaza. It was a headache they didn't want.

But that doesn't address the Palestinian reaction to the pullout of Gaza or the Hezbollah reaction to the pullout of Lebanon.

Is Israel supposed to respond to H+H (and PFLP, Islamic Jihad, the Al-Aksa Murderers Brigade etc...) with an olive branch?

Do you really believe that there is a strong entity which would support living in peace with Israel, even if it retreated to the Green Line? I'm starting to think that there is no person capable of uniting the factions and no party willing to make a lasting peace.

What must Israel do, bear its throat to see whether the knife will be used?

 

[assoholic]

..bottom line is Isreal is a powerful country, the regional bully. When Isreal was founded Ben -Gurion when asked about the Palestinians basically assumed
the world would forget about them. They would just become absorbed into the other countries.
Unfortunately, he forgot about Arab history. The fueds going back thousands of years.
Something to do with living in a desert, having to fight for every water hole.
Arabs hate each other almost as much as they hate the Jews.
However the sting of all those defeats still hangs on.
Especially as in the last one it wa s a Isreali nuclear threat that turned around those Syrian tanks.
They would love a chance get pay back.
However, with the Nuclear advantage , Isreal is untouchable.
Except of course through guerilla warfare.
Those Rockets were placed there by Iran to draw Isreal into the only war they can fight against them, a guerilla war.
As DQ has noted, Chess was invented in Persia.
There are also those within Isreal who favour the use of Nuclear weapons to sieze alot of Arab land. Particularly Southern Lebanon.
The big issue in the ME is water, its a numbers thing and there just aint enough of it for every-one much longer.
A lot of water in Southern Lebanon.
Throw in reigious fanatics on both sides.
The fact that some here refuse to even acknoledge that there are alot of religious fanatical jews in Isreal really is an embarassment.
What percentage I have no idea , but they are a big segment of society.
What you have is a whole bunch of people at each others throats.
Someone better start letting go soon, and the US should knock off stirring them up.Or the whole place may blow up.

 

[DATYdude]

The link?

 

[smyth]

Daty.

I just posted a link to the Economist's article:
Self-doomed to failure.

Its all there. Finally, the issue has been framed.
Yet, the date of the article is 7/4/02

The conclusion is pretty much close to what Bush says...

'With so many paths closed to them, some are now turning their dangerous anger on the western world.'


it doesnt answer anything in relation to todays conflicts going on in Iraq and Palestine and the international polictics behind those events yet overall a good article .

 

[y2kmark]

Equating oppositon to Israel with anti semitism

They are now showing their true colors and alliances. You are begining to see the pattern many established. Take our resident woody and his KKK refrences. Now he rushes to bash Israel?

Nothing but a fundamental right wing fallacy.

 

[smyth]

As for Bush. He has moral authority but no moral
credibility. He's led us down such an irrational road.

and what about American foreign policy which has been supporting those arab monarchies and dictaorships for decades

 

[GlennQuagmire]

This struggle has been going on for what is beginning
to seem like an eternity.

This Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the most important
issue in the ME. There will be no peace, security and
economic stability in the region until there is a final
resolution of their differences.

Problem is, both sides have blood on their hands.

Problem is, the US used to be an honest broker.
But that's now in the past tense.

Who will be the honest broker to arbitrate the
disputes in the future? Who will come forward
from both Israel and Palestine to compromise
the intransigent differences between the parties?

I'm both anti-Israeli and anti-Palestinian. I've had
it with both. Neither party has earned or deserves
my respect.

Militant Zionists and Islamic fundamentalists -
what's the difference?

How ridiculous. The Israelis have been fighting a war for their very survival since 1948. The Arabs have been trying to eliminate the "Zionist entity" for almost 60 years. Do you honestly believe the Jews would be outside their 1948 boundaries if they hadn't been attacked in 1948, 1956, and 1967. Give me a break.

 

[basketcase]

The Messiah must be coming. Smyth actually went beyond linking!!!

 

[themexi]

How ridiculous. The Israelis have been fighting a war for their very survival since 1948. The Arabs have been trying to eliminate the "Zionist entity" for almost 60 years. Do you honestly believe the Jews would be outside their 1948 boundaries if they hadn't been attacked in 1948, 1956, and 1967. Give me a break.

As I said before, there are valid arguments to lay blame on both sides.....

Can anyone answer this simple question:

Since the Palestinians had absolutely nothing to do with the Holocaust, how can anyone blame them for resenting those who now occupy what was their land? If your land was stolen would you not have the right to fight for it any way you could?

I would like someone to justify this without resorting to the tired claim that it was a "necessary evil". Jews could have been given part of Germany with a LOT less outrage. Someone explain to me with facts & logic why the state of Israel had to be founded in Palestine.

Seriously, if there is some reason why the European Jews absolutely could not be settled anywhere other than Palestine (other than religious or historical, as the Palestinians have equally valid & more recent claims of this variety), please help me out.

The simple fact is that these particular wars would not have to be fought in the middle east if Israel had not been re-created in Palestine.

Before anyone gets their knickers in a twist, hold on for a second before you pull that Anti-Semite ace from your race card deck. Please note that I'm NOT saying Israel should not have been re-created in Palestine. I don't think it's my place to say one way or the other. I wasn't there. I am stating a simple cause & effect relationship.

The Arabs would not have been trying to eliminate the "Zionist entity" for almost 60 years if Israel had been founded elsewhere. This is an indisputable fact. However, it must be argued that if it was founded elsewhere there might have been similar issues in that locale.

Arabs wouldn't have attacked them in 1948, 1956, or 1967 if Israel had been founded elsewhere. This is also an indisputable fact. However, it must be argued that if it was founded elsewhere there might have been similar issues in that locale.

It is reasonable to assume that these issues could very well have occurred anywhere the land was taken from others to create a Jewish state. However, we will never know for certain because the fact is that the land was taken from the Palestinians.

The Israelis justly claim the right to exist. They are also right in taking any means & measures necessary to preserve their homes & their lives. They occupy it, the land is now theirs, a couple of generations of Israelis are natural born citizens. Fair enough.

However, if it is fair for them to use any means to protect their nation, land & lives it is equally fair for the Palestinians to do the same to reclaim what was taken. The land was theirs 60 years ago as surely as it was the jews over 1000 years ago.

Basically this is a situation where as far as I'm concerned, whoever can keep the land, deserves it. Right now this would appear to be the fairest option according to the history of the region. Whoever is the best at war will earn this land. It doesn't matter what race or religion you are, this land's price has always been blood & it always sells to the highest bidder.

I have no issue with the Israelis doing what they have to do to keep their country & their people safe from harm. that is their business, not mine & I wish them well. I have no issue with the Palestinians doing what they have to do to reclaim their country & keep their people safe from harm. that is also their business, not mine & I wish them well too.

Let me say this again loud & clear: I am not an ANTI SEMITE because I refuse to stand soley by Israel's side in this issue. I am not an ANTI ARAB or against ISLAM because I refuse to stand soley by the Arab's side in this issue. What I am is a CANADIAN. I live in Canada, not Israel/Palestine. This will only be our problem if we let it become our problem.

If you feel so strongly that one side or the other needs aid then by all means, sell your own personal property, buy yourself some weapons or medical supplies, go over there & risk your own life to fight if you want. Don't come begging to the people of Canada to spend OUR tax dollars & throw away OUR children's lives for YOUR problem.

I am neither Israeli nor am I Arab. I am Canadian. As a Canadian, I see no reason why we should invest anything in this cursed land. Not one dollar, not one more Canadian life, not one ounce of anything that could be put to use here for OUR people's benefit.

I personally condemn the innocent lives taken by both sides of this. I wish that it didn't have to happen, but wishing does nothing. No matter which side with which you choose to identify, Innocent lives are being lost. There's something to be said about stepping back & looking at the situation as a human being & seeing the overall tragedy it is....

 

[basketcase]

However, if it is fair for them to use any means to protect their nation, land & lives it is equally fair for the Palestinians to do the same to reclaim what was taken. The land was theirs 60 years ago as surely as it was the jews over 1000 years ago...

This is the only part I'll comment on as your opinion is quite clear and moraly unambigous.

It is a common misconception that the land of Palestine was Arab land taken by European Jews. There are many Sabra Israelis that can trace their family in Israel back through hundreds of years. Many of the other Israelis are decendants (or born in) of immigrants from Arab countries.

Probably the most important thing is that by 1945 (before the post war immigration) Israel's population was 1/3 Jewish.

Yes, a good chunk of the land was Arab but they seemed unwilling to let the Jews keep their part. Remember that there was a Palestinian state briefly in 1948 untill Jordan and Egypt decided to end that.

 

[papasmerf]

Nothing but a fundamental right wing fallacy.

Is it?

Or does it begin to show an adgenda?

 

[PHNINE]

I am getting tired of the rampant anti-israeli comments on this board

Just to be fair, what about all the anti-muslim comments?

 

[papasmerf]

Just to be fair, what about all the anti-muslim comments?

that is a good point.

How much of this have you seen?

 

[peteeey]

Nebraska Alliance - Times Herald
Lincoln, Nebraska July 19, 2006
** Why the World Should Stand Back and Let Israel Do What It Has To Do **
**by Dave Wilson, Capt. retired, US Navy

When I was in the Navy, I once witnessed a bar fight in downtown Olongapo (Philippines) that still haunts my dreams. The fight was between a big oafish Marine and a rather soft-spoken, medium sized Latino sailor from my ship.

All evening the Marine had been trying to pick a fight with one of us and had finally set his sights on this diminutive shipmate of mine... figuring him for a safe target. When my friend refused to be goaded into a fight the Marine sucker punched him from behind on the side of the head so hard that blood instantly started to pour from this poor man's mutilated ear.

Everyone present was horrified and was prepared to absolutely murder this Marine, but my shipmate quickly turned on him and began to single-handedly back him towards a corner with a series of stinging jabs and upper cuts that gave more than a hint to a youth spent boxing in a small gym in the Bronx.

Each punch opened a cut on the Marine's startled face and by the time he had been backed completely into the corner he was blubbering for someone to stop the fight. He invoked his split lips and chipped teeth as reasons to stop the fight. He begged us to stop the fight because he could barely see through the river of blood that was pouring out of his split and swollen brows.

Nobody moved. Not one person.

The only sound in the bar was the sickening staccato sound of this sailor's lightning fast fists making contact with new areas of the Marine's head. The only sound I have heard since that was remotely similar was from the first Rocky film when Sylvester Stallone was punching sides of beef in the meat locker.

Finally the Marine's pleading turned to screams.... a high, almost womanly shriek. And still the punches continued relentlessly. Several people in the bar took a few tentative steps as though they wanted to try to break it up at that point, but hands reached out from the crowd and held them tight. I'm not ashamed to say that mine were two of the hands that held someone back.

You see, in between each blow the sailor had begun chanting a soft cadence: "Say [punch] you [punch] give [punch] up [punch]... say [punch] you [punch]were [punch] wrong [punch]". He had been repeating it to the Marine almost from the start but we only became aware of it when the typical barroom cheers had died down and we began to be sickened by the sight and sound of the carnage.

This Marine stood there shrieking in the corner of the bar trying futilely to block the carefully timed punches that were cutting his head to tatters... right down to the skull in places. But he refused to say that he gave up... or that he was wrong.

Even in the delirium of his beating he believed in his heart that someone would stop the fight before he had to admit defeat. I'm sure this strategy had served him well in the past and had allowed him to continue on his career as a barroom bully.

Finally, in a wail of agony the Marine shrieked "I give up” and we gently backed the sailor away from him.

I'm sure you can guess why I have shared this story today.

I'm not particularly proud to have been witness to such a bloody spectacle, and the sound of that Marine's woman-like shrieks will haunt me to my grave. But I learned something that evening that Israel had better learn for itself if it is to finally be rid of at least one of its tormentors:

This is one time an Arab aggressor must be allowed to be beaten so badly that every civilized nation will stand in horror, wanting desperately to step in and stop the carnage... but knowing that the fight will only truly be over when one side gives up and finally admits defeat.

Just as every person who had ever rescued that bully from admitting defeat helped create the cowardly brute I saw that evening in the bar, every well-intentioned power that has ever stepped in and negotiated a ceasefire for an Arab aggressor has helped create the monsters we see around us today.

President Lahoud of Lebanon , a big Hezbollah supporter and a close ally of Syria , has been shrieking non-stop to the UN Security Council for the past two days to get them to force Israel into a cease fire.

Clearly he has been reading his autographed copy of 'Military Success for Dummies Arab Despots' by the late Gamal Abdel Nasser of Egypt . Ever since Nasser accidentally discovered the trick in '56, every subsequent Arab leader has stuck to his tried and true formula for military success:

** Instigate a war. **

Once the war is well underway and you are in the process of having your ass handed to you... get a few world powers to force your western opponent into a cease fire.

Whatever you do, don't surrender or submit to any terms dictated by your enemy. That would ruin everything! All you have to do is wait it out and eventually the world will become sickened at what is being done to your soldiers and civilian population... and will force a truce.

Once a truce has been called you can resume your intransigence (which probably caused the conflict in the first place), and even declare victory as your opponent leaves the field of battle.

This tactic has never failed. Not once. In fact it worked so will for the Egyptians in 1973, that to this day they celebrate the Yom Kippur War - a crushing defeat at the hands of Israel - as a military victory! No kidding... it's a national holiday over there!

President Lahoud has already begun to shriek like a school girl to the UN Security Council to "Stop the violence and arrange a cease-fire, and then after that we'll be ready to discuss all matters."

Uh huh. Forgive me if I find that a tad hard to swallow. He allowed Hezbollah to take over his country. He allowed the regular Lebanese army to provide radar targeting data for the Hezbollah missile that struck the Israeli destroyer. He has turned a blind eye while Iranian and Syrian weapons, advisers and money have poured into his country. And now that his country is in ruins he wants to call it a draw.

As much as it may sicken the world to stand by and watch it happen, strong hands need to hold back the weak- hearted and let the fight continue until one side finally admits unambiguous defeat.

 

[Ulyssses]

I'm not taking sides....

Now THAT is rich. Just had those Zionist massacre links perchance on hand, did you? Puhleeeeze.

Uly

 

[themexi]

This is the only part I'll comment on as your opinion is quite clear and moraly unambigous.

It is a common misconception that the land of Palestine was Arab land taken by European Jews. There are many Sabra Israelis that can trace their family in Israel back through hundreds of years. Many of the other Israelis are decendants (or born in) of immigrants from Arab countries.

Probably the most important thing is that by 1945 (before the post war immigration) Israel's population was 1/3 Jewish.

Yes, a good chunk of the land was Arab but they seemed unwilling to let the Jews keep their part. Remember that there was a Palestinian state briefly in 1948 untill Jordan and Egypt decided to end that.

Thank you basketcase, the location choice due to % of population is a reason that makes good sense to me.

As for noting my opinion being quite clear and moraly unambigous I thank you for that as well. When everyone is being asked to take a stand on one side or another I merely see a third side, my own peoples' best interest. I see no shame in recognizing that a situation must be allowed to play itself out & getting involved will only prolong the harm to them & invite harm upon ourselves as well.

I'm not particularly proud to have been witness to such a bloody spectacle, and the sound of that Marine's woman-like shrieks will haunt me to my grave. But I learned something that evening that Israel had better learn for itself if it is to finally be rid of at least one of its tormentors:

This is one time an Arab aggressor must be allowed to be beaten so badly that every civilized nation will stand in horror, wanting desperately to step in and stop the carnage... but knowing that the fight will only truly be over when one side gives up and finally admits defeat.

Just as every person who had ever rescued that bully from admitting defeat helped create the cowardly brute I saw that evening in the bar, every well-intentioned power that has ever stepped in and negotiated a ceasefire for an Arab aggressor has helped create the monsters we see around us today.

This is sort of the point I wanted to make. Yes, every civilized nation is standing in horror, wanting desperately to step in and stop the carnage in the middle east. However, most realize this fight will only truly be over when one side gives up and finally admits defeat.

The only way I slightly differ from this is that I am stating that neither party has more claim to this land than the other. I also really don't think either side will ever admit defeat. Interference will only prolong the suffering & put off the inevitable; in order for there to be peace over there one group must essentially destroy the other. It's not that I don't care, I simply have no politically based preference as to the outcome.

Historically speaking, the only way to be %100 safe from enemies is to be %100 certain you have none.


I will not cheerlead either side. I will not state a preference, as both sides are made up of people just like me. I can honestly say that If I were born an Israeli I would do exactly what they are doing, furthermore I admire their restraint. If I were born an Arab I would do exactly what they are doing, I admire their tenacity not to give up on what they believe is theirs.

All foreign interference has done is worsen the situation. In the past, American foreign policy supported Arab monarchies and dictaorships for decades. Now it appears that American foreign policy will support Israel militarily, finacially & politically. As a result, of both policies, America has become a target for terrorist Islamic groups.

Now Canadian government wishes to tow the party line of these pricks.
Does this strike no one else as insane???


I know that with all the propaganda on both sides it is not a popular opinion, but one can actually refuse to be counted in the "pro" something camp without being "anti" anything.

The idea that PM Harper is doing what no other PM has done in recent memory & finally took a firm stand on an issue is bull. I would have much preferred his firm stand to be "Don't bring us into it. We will not waste Canadian lives & resources on a fight that isn't ours. We will render medical & humanitarian aid to whomever needs it regardless of sides, as it is not our place to support one side at the expense of the other. Call us when there is a point to rebuilding & helping secure a viable peace & we'll be there with bells on".

I, like a lot of people, just want this to be over, and sadly I have a good idea how it is going to end. There is nothing left to do but bear witness to the horror show.