Reverie

I am getting tired of the rampant anti-israeli comments on this board

oneclassyguy

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since when is terrorism acceptable? Since when is it in fashion to align with openly terrorist groups? Since when is is acceptable to hide among decent civilians and launch missles into the homes of innocent people and terrorize 6 million because no one knows where the next slaughter will take place. I am saddened by this - I thought we lived in a country of tolerance and underdstanding - read this story from another point of view

http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/Qana_In_Context.asp
 

Scorpion King

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Feb 18, 2005
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Classy,

I side with neither. I will say that we do live in a country that permits one to have an opinion on either side of the fence.... and you cant 'hate' on anyone because they happen to fall on the other side of that fence.

SK.
 

Edifice

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Tell the U.S. to stop supporting Israel with military arms and in general. :cool:
 

Perry Mason

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The problem is that it is impossible to have a reasonable discussion on such a complex, emotional and historical subject when people like smyth, cyrus and mark pile on so much hatred, misinformation and disinformation.

I agree that there are at least three sides to every conflict. And each side has something positive and something negative that can be said about them.

I am a Jew. And I have always felt that the Palesitinan cause is a noble humanitarian cause. Unfortunately, it is a long journey from theory to practice.

It is a difficult problem. Too bad we can't have intelligent dialogue even on a board like this.

But, then, this is an escort review board... isn't it? :rolleyes:

Perry
 
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frankcastle

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Feb 4, 2003
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I don't see either side as being right. Neither side is particularly saintly.

It's really sad so much violence is being carried out by both sides and I don't see a worthy goal at the end other than the obvious (try and kill the other side).

The only people I truly feel bad for are those caught in the cross fire.

The worst part is that with each day how are they going to ever come to a truce/cease fire every death is going to drive the two sides further apart.

Ironic so much bloodshed is happening in the so called holy land.
 

Cinema Face

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The same people who bash Israel are the same ones that bash the US. Coincidence? These are lefties who hate anything considered Western culture and would side with Satan himself if he could bring down the Western hegemony. They have no original ideas and no concept of how to make the world be a better place. They just cut n past from their lefty hate blogs.


Years ago these same misguided fools were called communists and to a lesser extent, socialists. Since the fall of communism these people don’t know what do to with themselves except bash the west.

There’s no point arguing with them. They’re minds firmly made up. You only confuse them with the actual facts.
 

papasmerf

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Cinema Face said:
The same people who bash Israel are the same ones that bash the US. Coincidence? These are lefties who hate anything considered Western culture and would side with Satan himself if he could bring down the Western hegemony. They have no original ideas and no concept of how to make the world be a better place. They just cut n past from their lefty hate blogs.


Years ago these same misguided fools were called communists and to a lesser extent, socialists. Since the fall of communism these people don’t know what do to with themselves except bash the west.

There’s no point arguing with them. They’re minds firmly made up. You only confuse them with the actual facts.
They are now showing their true colors and alliances. You are begining to see the pattern many established. Take our resident woody and his KKK refrences. Now he rushes to bash Israel?
 

DATYdude

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Oct 8, 2003
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"Militant Zionists and Islamic fundamentalists -
what's the difference?"

Militant Zionist, I'm not sure what you mean by militant, but I think you mean someone who believes in a Jewish national home in Zion, also known as Israel, and who will defend Israel's existence through military means. (If you mean the more extreme forms of Zionism that state that Greater Israel should be strived for and that no Arab should be welcome in the Jewish State, you're probably talking about a coupleof thousand people so I'm assuming you mean mainstream Zionists)

Islamic fundamentalist, again I'm not sure what you mean, but I think you mean someone who believes in some form of Islam which states that all other religions are heretical, and that any non-Muslim ruling lands which are part of the historical Muslim world (and this includes Spain, the Balkans, Israel, and more) is an illegal occupier and has no right to live. Probably the more extreme versions believe that all the world should properly a target for eventual Muslim conquest, and that heretics should convert or die. I think you could safely put the numbers of these zealous Muslims at 100 million people.

So if I'm more or less correct about the definitions, do you not see the difference?
 

smyth

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Militant Zionism in America: The Rise and Impact of the Jabotinsky Movement in the United Sates, 1926-1948 (Judaic Studies)

http://www.powells.com/biblio?isbn=0817310711


Excerpt


Although it was surely not Rafael Medoff's intent, Militant Zionism in America casts an eerie light on the present. Contemporary supporters of Israel are likely to squirm when they read of the ease with which Revisionists convinced American media personalities and politicians of the 1940s that Irgun and Stern Gang members were reincarnations of American heroes (Dov Gruner = Nathan Hale, for example), and that Palestine under the British in those years was similar to "the Hitler regimes in occupied Europe" (166). Medoff quotes a 1944 editorial in the Bulletin of the New Zionist Organization of America (one of the main Revisionist organizations of the day) declaring that attacks on the British by Jews "can neither be condoned nor condemned by us" (175). When the Jewish "militants" (Medoff refrains from calling them "terrorists") who had assassinated Lord Moyne, the British minister of state in the Middle East and a relative of Winston Churchill, were put on trial, the same organization issued a press release describing them as "patriots and fighters for freedom" whose suffering under the British and Germans ought to serve as exculpatory evidence (175). And in May 1947, Ben Hecht, who had become the chief publicist for the Revisionists in the United States, published a "Letter to the Terrorists in Palestine" in two New York newspapers in which he asserted that every act of violence against the British—including murder—causes "the Jews of America to make a little holiday in their hearts" (197).

http://muse.jhu.edu/cgi-bin/access.cgi?uri=/journals/american_jewish_history/v090/90.4brown.html
 

papasmerf

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smyth said:
Militant Zionism in America: The Rise and Impact of the Jabotinsky Movement in the United Sates, 1926-1948 (Judaic Studies)

http://www.powells.com/biblio?isbn=0817310711
Why not tell us about the poeple who flew planes into the World Trade Center. I would like to know something you know alittle more about.
 

DATYdude

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Sorry I don't have time to read about a 60 year old pre-state movement, nor do I think that's what DQ is referring to when he refers to Militant Zionists. Anyway, smyth if you have time maybe you can give us a synopsis of the book you link to (I'm not kidding here, I am always ready to learn and always willing to be convinced).

Show me the people now in Israel who want all Arabs kicked out/killed, and tell me what the extent of their power or influence is.

Then show me the people in the Arab world who want all Jews kicked out of Israel or killed and tell me what the extent of their power/influence is.

I know the liberal tradition states that we ought to be balanced, but that doesn't mean not taking context into consideration. It's OK to agree that a Jewish State in Israel is acceptable without agreeing with everything Israel's government does. But I don't think it's EVER acceptable to side with Hamas or Hezbollah as long as their raison d'etre remains the destruction of Israel.
 

DATYdude

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Well that'sprobably not right, sometimes siding with Hezbollah or Hamas should be acceptable, when they are not acting toward the destruction of Israel.
 

smyth

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DATYdude said:
Sorry I don't have time to read about a 60 year old pre-state movement, nor do I think that's what DQ is referring to when he refers to Militant Zionists. Anyway, smyth if you have time maybe you can give us a synopsis of the book you link to (I'm not kidding here, I am always ready to learn and always willing to be convinced).

Show me the people now in Israel who want all Arabs kicked out/killed, and tell me what the extent of their power or influence is.

Then show me the people in the Arab world who want all Jews kicked out of Israel or killed and tell me what the extent of their power/influence is.

I know the liberal tradition states that we ought to be balanced, but that doesn't mean not taking context into consideration. It's OK to agree that a Jewish State in Israel is acceptable without agreeing with everything Israel's government does. But I don't think it's EVER acceptable to side with Hamas or Hezbollah as long as their raison d'etre remains the destruction of Israel.

Book Review: Militant Zionism in America

and its relevance to today's conflict

http://www.jewishsightseeing.com/wr...manson/2005-06-14-manson_militant_zionism.htm



In our fast-moving world, events of the 1930s and '40s may seem almost like ancient history, but this account of the maximalist - some might say extremist - Zionist movement in those tumultuous, tragic years bears considerable relevance to today's conflict over the future of the state of Israel.

For those who participated in "the Jabotinsky movement," as named in the book's subtitle may well be regarded as the spiritual ancestors of those struggling to prevent any Israeli withdrawals from the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. How the current situation will be resolved is anyone's guess, of course, but those who battled valiantly to save Jews and forge an independent Jewish state were certainly at least partly responsible for Israel coming into being when it did.

Ze'ev Jabotinsky was the leader, the inspirational figure of the Revisionist, or maximalist, wing of Zionism. He lived in what was then Palestine, but also spent time in Europe and occasionally visited the U.S. He died of a massive heart attack in 1940, while on one of his U.S. visits.

While he was the key figure in the movement, the book focuses mainly on how his followers split from mainstream Zionism, which basically advocated a low-key approach to achieving Zionism goals, to form groups - they were by no means always united - that pushed for militant action, confronting the British rulers of Palestine, as well as trying to rescue Jews from nazi-occupied Europe, and attempting to form a Jewish brigade to fight in World War II. Generally more
conservative than the mainstream labor-oriented faction of Zionism, they were more attractive to Orthodox Jews as well as to those of a more capitalist bent. On the other hand, to those on the liberal side of the ideological spectrum, their tactics smacked of fascism and even nazism.

But as things progressively worsened, especially for Europe's Jews, there was a noticeable shift from mainstream, peace-oriented Zionism to the more militant variety. And Rafael Medoff, a Jewish studies scholar, graphically depicts this change in attitude, exemplified by growing support from celebrities in various fields - Jews and non-Jews alike - by large-scale newspaper advertising, and by well-attended protest rallies in New York and other large American cities.

And this constant pressure did bring results, even if some were too little and too late. FDR did appoint a War Refugee Board, which saved a few Jews; a Jewish Brigade did fight in Italy in the closing months of World War II (and, in so doing, laid the groundwork for aiding Holocaust survivors in their difficult journeys to Palestine) and, finally, they probably were instrumental in getting Britain to give up its mandate, which led to the establishment of Israel.

While most of the book is easy to follow, especially for a relatively scholarly study, the multiplicity of "alphabet soup" organizations that Medoff follows can be just a little confusing. Also, there are a few minor factual errors - he calls Dean Acheson the secretary of state in 1946, but Acheson did not gain that position until 1949. And he may have slightly overstated the role of the Revisionists.

Still, this is a subject pretty much neglected by historians until now, so the detailed treatment Medoff gives it is well-deserved. And its relevance to current events further enhances its value
 

papasmerf

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DonQuixote said:
Off topic, pops.
Start a new thread.
Not off topic

might be a tangent but is on topic when you consider reasons
 
Sep 8, 2003
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Away from here.
www.reddit.com
It's a very hopeless period, especially with the complicating force of George Bush and Iraq destroying whatever sense there was in the Arab world of the U.S. being an honest broker in the Arab/Israeli conflict.

Until the Israelis retreat from the settlements, nothing will change. If they do so, they will inspire tremendous support equaling or exceeding the goodwill they are losing in bombing Lebanon. They won't do it of course.

There are two excellent columns in New York magazine this week about the subject. One notes how Beirut has become a fountain of Arab freedom, where Arabs go to shake loose religion and experiment with freedom (hey George, paying attention? You can't force it on people, it happens conditionally and organically), and the fact that the bombing has destroyed so much possibility for this freedom to continue. Very sad from every angle.

The other is Kurt Anderson's (former editor of Spy magazine) piece on the lack of truth-telling on both sides of the conflict and blind support for one side or the other amongst prominent Americans. Depressing.

Between the environment and the endless loop of war and destruction, life on this planet is becoming a constant state of dread and anxiety.

Time to get laid! :(
 

johnhenrygalt

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Force is the original sin of nations. There are no nations which are "saints". Virtually all nations, through action and/or inaction, have caused the death of innocents.

This truth does not mean that all sides to a conflict are equivalent. That the Israelis have acted with force doesn't mean their cause isn't just or that the means employed were necessarily wrong (at this stage is world history, it is not always possible to avoid errors or "collateral damage" - I don't know enough about the particulars of this conflict to form a personal judgement on whether or not the Israeli's went overboard).

The means used by Hezbollah are repulsive, as well as the end sought by them (establishment of a Revolutionary Islamic Republic). This does not mean that the cause of the Palestinian people is without merit.
 

papasmerf

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DonQuixote said:
My hunch is that the rise of Islamic militancy will
delay the resolve of both parties to settle this
matter.
WHAT THE HELL IS THAT?

Millitants killed almost 3000 people on 9-11?

Don you are dancing because you hate Bush
 

LancsLad

Unstable Element
Jan 15, 2004
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In a very dark place
It is possible to distinguish between the two , but why bother, just eliminate the virus.
 

themexi

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Jun 12, 2006
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Both sides are to blame. Pity that the Arabs don't have a term like "Anti-Semite" in their arsenal to invoke pity & instantly stifle any opposing argument. Israel does have a right to exist, but their treatment of the Palestinians is certainly born of desparation but still despicable. A person walking into a civilian area & blowing themseves up to kill as many as possible is a desparate act & equally despicable.

I think we should back right out of it & condemn BOTH the Israelis & the Arab governments in the area bent on destroying them. We should either A) Stay totally out of it & let them sort it out. or B) Have ALL UN countries descend on the area, disarm everyone, & enforce a peace by using maximum force on anyone who breaks the ceasefire.

I know neither A nor B is palatable to most people.....but half measures are just prolonging this & quite frankly...I'm just sick of hearing about & our nations being in any way involved with this foreign bullsh!t.
 
Ashley Madison
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