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Human sexuality: what's the real story?

Scott75

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Well, firstly reciprocal alturism is kind of a conflict of terms. Altruism implies it is not reciprocal. Mutually beneficial, like certain symbiotic relationships is a whole different problem.
I agree that altruism as a term implies that. Reciprocal altruism doesn't though. I actually don't believe in pure altruism per se. Put another way, I think that everything that any creature does is either to increase their happiness or decrease pain.

I suggested the article has important implications for the selfish gene school. I did not suggest it bears directly on alturism. It does bear directly on the relationship between genes and adaptation(ism).
Ok.

And with great respect, apes or monkeys inspecting each other for ticks has nothing to do with evolution, it is a behaviour which has no real impact on evolutionary outcomes. To influence evolutionary outcomes it must impact either a) the ability to survive or b) reproductive success.
I have a feeling that tick infested monkeys don't do as well as non tick infested monkeys :p.

While it is an interesting behaviour you will be hard pressed to find a scientist or any evidence to suggest that this behaviour impacts evolutionary outcomes.
Admittedly, I don't know what Dawkins has to say about this particular trait, so I'll leave it at what I said above.

The proponents of biological alturism or kin selection and their related theories are talking about something completely different.
I did read Dawkins' Selfish Gene book; it seems that it would fit right in...
 

rld

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I have a feeling that tick infested monkeys don't do as well as non tick infested monkeys :p.
If I was to suggest that I have a feeling that tick infested monkeys do just fine in an evolutionary sense, it would be as non-sensical as your "feeling" that they do worse. If you want to discuss your feelings talk to your mom or SO. If you want to talk about science either go with theory or evidence. Otherwise you are just wasting our time with a classic "just so" story, which while easy to enjoy, holds no value.

There are some traits in evolved animals, particularly insects, that are a) products of natural selection and b) appear to be completely alturistic. That is what is usually being talked about. The bird example, often discussed is really on its way out.

Finally, for it to be evolutionary altruism, the act in question must have a cost to the organism carrying it out in evolutionary terms. That is it must either a) reduce reproductive opportunities or b) reduce their chance of survival. Your tick example does neither.

By the way the literature generally concedes the term is wrong.

Again, I challenge you to find an expert or paper that uses your tick example as reciprocal altruism. The proponents of the concept concede that there are very few examples of it in nature, and I have never seen the tick example used. Do you think the scientists who favour the theory don't know about monkeys and ticks? Do you think you have discovered something new that should be added to the literature?
 

Scott75

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If I was to suggest that I have a feeling that tick infested monkeys do just fine in an evolutionary sense, it would be as non-sensical as your "feeling" that they do worse. If you want to discuss your feelings talk to your mom or SO.
Laugh :). I agree that feelings are best followed up by research, but if I'm mentioning a feeling, I generally have atleast a logical argument to back it up. I think that most people would agree that it makes sense that monkeys that aren't tick infested would do better then monkeys that are.

If you want to talk about science either go with theory or evidence.
Perhaps you could say that what I have above is a hypothesis based on reasonable assumptions. As to your points, just thought I'd add that theories require evidence; evidence doesn't require theories.

Otherwise you are just wasting our time with a classic "just so" story, which while easy to enjoy, holds no value.

There are some traits in evolved animals, particularly insects, that are a) products of natural selection and b) appear to be completely alturistic. That is what is usually being talked about. The bird example, often discussed is really on its way out.
The way I understood Dawkins' books, he doesn't believe in pure altruism, but rather the reciprocal type I was talking about. That being said, some reciprocal altruism an get pretty subtle.

Finally, for it to be evolutionary altruism, the act in question must have a cost to the organism carrying it out in evolutionary terms. That is it must either a) reduce reproductive opportunities or b) reduce their chance of survival. Your tick example does neither.
I think you misunderstood me; I don't believe in pure altruism, only reciprocal altruism. Essentially, that everyone does something to increase happiness or minimize pain/unhappiness for themselves.

By the way the literature generally concedes the term is wrong.
I think that wikipedia isn't a bad place to start a simple discussion, but if you come up with a better term then reciprocal altruism for what I'm describing, I may go with that.

Again, I challenge you to find an expert or paper that uses your tick example as reciprocal altruism.
I already said that I have no knowledge of any expert using my tick example, laugh :). But what I'm trying to convey is very well said in evolutionary biologist Dawkins' new edition of his "Selfish Gene" book; it's a chapter near the end, "Nice guys finish first". If you want, I could quote some passages from it that may get my point across better. I'll quote the introduction to the chapter...
****
Nice guys finish last. The phrase seems to have originated in the
world of baseball, although some authorities claim priority for an
alternative connotation. The American biologist Garrett Hardin
used it to summarize the message of what may be called 'sociobiology' or 'selfish genery'.
It is easy to see its aptness. If we translate the
colloquial meaning of 'nice guy' into its Darwinian equivalent, a nice
guy is an individual that assists other members of its species, at its
own expense, to pass their genes on to the next generation. Nice
guys, then, seem bound to decrease in numbers: niceness dies a
Darwinian death. But there is another, technical, interpretation of
the colloquial word 'nice'. If we adopt this definition, which is not too
far from the colloquial meaning, nice guys can finish first. This more
optimistic conclusion is what this chapter is about.

Remember the Grudgers of Chapter 10. These were birds that
helped each other in an apparently altruistic way, but refused to
help—bore a grudge against—individuals that had previously
refused to help them. Grudgers came to dominate the population
because they passed on more genes to future generations than either
Suckers (who helped others indiscriminately, and were exploited) or
Cheats (who tried ruthlessly to exploit everybody and ended up doing
each other down). The story of the Grudgers illustrated an important
general principle, which Robert Trivers called 'reciprocal altruism'.
As we saw in the example of the cleaner fish (pages 186-7), reciprocal
altruism is not confined to members of a single species. It is at work in
all relationships that are called symbiotic—for instance the ants
milking their aphid 'cattle' (page 181). Since Chapter 10 was written,
the American political scientist Robert Axelrod (working partly in
collaboration with W. D. Hamilton, whose name has cropped up on
so many pages of this book), has taken the idea of reciprocal altruism
on in exciting new directions. It was Axelrod who coined the technical
meaning of the word 'nice' to which I alluded in my opening paragraph.



Axelrod, like many political scientists, economists, mathematicians and psychologists,
was fascinated by a simple gambling game called Prisoner's Dilemma. It is so simple that
I have known clever men misunderstand it completely, thinking that there must be more
to it! But its simplicity is deceptive. Whole shelves in libraries are
devoted to the ramifications of this beguiling game. Many influential
people think it holds the key to strategic defence planning, and that
we should study it to prevent a third world war. As a biologist, I agree
with Axelrod and Hamilton that many wild animals and plants are
engaged in ceaseless games of Prisoner's Dilemma, played out in
evolutionary time.

****

Dawkins then goes into a detailed explanation of Prisoner's Dilemma and its evolutionary implications. This prisoner's dilemma concept is what I've been trying to convey.
 
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rld

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I have read Selfish Gene (now an outdated book that even Dawkins admits has many flaws...) and do my best to stay on top of the literature of evolutionary biology.

The simple fact is cases of "reciprocal altruism" are very rare, and not a single scientist in the field suggests tick removal is an example.

You do a fine job of babbling on but can never answer the hard questions. For the trait to qualify it must have an "evolutionary cost" to the organism carrying it out. There is no "evolutionary cost" to taking ticks off another animal. What is the evolutionary cost you suggest occurs from tick removal?

Scientists are desperate for examples of it, and none of them mention tick removal. Are you suggesting they are not aware of the behavior? Have you written them to help expand their field with your startling new discovery.

And while wikipedia is nice, and Selfish (immortal) Gene is a good start, you seem incapable or unwilling to deal with the most basic problems in your suggestion.

1) what is the evolutionary cost of tick removal?
2) how do genes communicate their desires to the organism or;
3) how does the environment act on genes, so that genes become the level of selection?

Even though you may want to remain stuck 30 years in the past, here is a much more recent peice in the field on the subject (which discusses the naming problem) that might help you understand why you are so far off the mark with the tick removal.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/altruism-biological/

Despite the attention paid to reciprocal altruism by theoreticians, clear-cut empirical examples are relatively few (Hammerstein 2003, Sachs et al. 2004). This is probably because the pre-conditions for reciprocal altruism to evolve- multiple encounters and individual recognition - are not especially common. However, one possible example is provided by blood-sharing in vampire bats (Wilkinson 1984, 1990). It is quite common for a vampire bat to fail to feed on a given night. This is potentially fatal, for bats die if they go without food for more than a couple of days. On any given night, bats donate blood (by regurgitation) to other members of their group who have failed to feed, thus saving them from starvation. Since vampire bats live in small groups and associate with each other over long periods of time, the preconditions for reciprocal altruism are likely to be met. Wilkinson's study showed that bats tended to share food with their close associates, and were more likely to share with others that had recently shared with them. These findings accord with reciprocal altruism theory.

Trivers (1985) describes an apparent case of reciprocal altruism between non con-specifics. On tropical coral reefs, various species of small fish act as ‘cleaners’ for large fish, removing parasites from their mouths and gills. The interaction is mutually beneficial — the large fish gets cleaned and the cleaner gets fed. However, Trivers notes that the large fish sometimes appear to behave altruistically towards the cleaners. If a large fish is attacked by a predator while it has a cleaner in its mouth, then it waits for the cleaner to leave before fleeing the predator, rather than swallowing the cleaner and fleeing immediately. Trivers explains the larger fish's behaviour in terms of reciprocal altruism. Since the large fish often returns to the same cleaner many times over, it pays to look after the cleaner's welfare, i.e., not to swallow it, even if this increases the chance of being wounded by a predator. So the larger fish allows the cleaner to escape, because there is an expectation of return benefit — getting cleaned again in the future. As in the case of the vampire bats, it is because the large fish and the cleaner interact more than once that the behaviour can evolve.
I think you should write Stanford immediately and let them know about your new discovery about ticks.

Frankly, I don't think you know the field well enough to understand even the basic concepts that you are discussing in any practical way.

While the Prisoner's Dilemna makes for an interesting mathematical analysis, it does not provide any data to actually solve the problem.
 

Scott75

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Jan 29, 2012
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I have read Selfish Gene (now an outdated book that even Dawkins admits has many flaws...)
Fair enough, but I'm interesting in knowing if you read the original version or the one with "Nice guys finish first" chapter.

and do my best to stay on top of the literature of evolutionary biology.

The simple fact is cases of "reciprocal altruism" are very rare, and not a single scientist in the field suggests tick removal is an example.
You really want to kill my tick removal example I see, laugh :). I said long ago that it simply seemed to be an apt example, but it's clearly not the only one.

You do a fine job of babbling on but can never answer the hard questions. For the trait to qualify it must have an "evolutionary cost" to the organism carrying it out. There is no "evolutionary cost" to taking ticks off another animal. What is the evolutionary cost you suggest occurs from tick removal?
It's time spent on a creature other then the one doing the picking. Creatures only have so much time to do what they need to do to survive and procreate. The reason that I believe it would qualify as reciprocal altruism is that although a monkey picking ticks off of his friends back may not benefit him immediately, it -would- benefit him if his friend returned the favour later. This is why Dawkins' "Grudgers" are so important; essentially, in general, we are more generous to those who are more generous with us; evolutionarily speaking, this makes sense if helping each other out is more then a zero sum game.

Scientists are desperate for examples of it, and none of them mention tick removal.
Dawkins doesn't seem to hold your point of view, what with his belief that "many wild animals and plants are
engaged in ceaseless games of Prisoner's Dilemma, played out in evolutionary time." Dawkins' himself mentions tick removal in one of his examples that I get to further below.

2) how do genes communicate their desires to the organism or;
Dawkins' has never argued that they do. You may want to take a look at his book The Blind Watchmaker.

3) how does the environment act on genes, so that genes become the level of selection?
I would say that the environment is crucial in gene selection. However, I'd also like to point out that, with humans and other fairly intelligent animals, I don't believe that genes are at the forefront anymore; rather, I believe the memes, a term that Dawkins' coined, are the real masters now. Memes are essentially ideas. Ideas can take many forms, from religion to politics, but they can be quite removed from genes, which is how genetically suicidal ideas like a celibate priesthood could exist.

Even though you may want to remain stuck 30 years in the past, here is a much more recent peice in the field on the subject (which discusses the naming problem) that might help you understand why you are so far off the mark with the tick removal.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/altruism-biological/

Despite the attention paid to reciprocal altruism by theoreticians, clear-cut empirical examples are relatively few (Hammerstein 2003, Sachs et al. 2004). This is probably because the pre-conditions for reciprocal altruism to evolve- multiple encounters and individual recognition - are not especially common. However, one possible example is provided by blood-sharing in vampire bats (Wilkinson 1984, 1990). It is quite common for a vampire bat to fail to feed on a given night. This is potentially fatal, for bats die if they go without food for more than a couple of days. On any given night, bats donate blood (by regurgitation) to other members of their group who have failed to feed, thus saving them from starvation. Since vampire bats live in small groups and associate with each other over long periods of time, the preconditions for reciprocal altruism are likely to be met. Wilkinson's study showed that bats tended to share food with their close associates, and were more likely to share with others that had recently shared with them. These findings accord with reciprocal altruism theory.

Trivers (1985) describes an apparent case of reciprocal altruism between non con-specifics. On tropical coral reefs, various species of small fish act as ‘cleaners’ for large fish, removing parasites from their mouths and gills. The interaction is mutually beneficial — the large fish gets cleaned and the cleaner gets fed. However, Trivers notes that the large fish sometimes appear to behave altruistically towards the cleaners. If a large fish is attacked by a predator while it has a cleaner in its mouth, then it waits for the cleaner to leave before fleeing the predator, rather than swallowing the cleaner and fleeing immediately. Trivers explains the larger fish's behaviour in terms of reciprocal altruism. Since the large fish often returns to the same cleaner many times over, it pays to look after the cleaner's welfare, i.e., not to swallow it, even if this increases the chance of being wounded by a predator. So the larger fish allows the cleaner to escape, because there is an expectation of return benefit — getting cleaned again in the future. As in the case of the vampire bats, it is because the large fish and the cleaner interact more than once that the behaviour can evolve.
Yes, I'd heard of both of those examples before. I imagine I read them in one of Dawkins' books.

While the Prisoner's Dilemna makes for an interesting mathematical analysis, it does not provide any data to actually solve the problem.
That statement really makes me wonder if you read Richard Dawkins' updated version of The Selfish Gene. Let me quote a section of that chapter that's a little further in:

****************
The birds in Chapter 10 who removed ticks from each other's
feathers were playing an iterated Prisoner's Dilemma game. How is
this so? It is important, you remember, for a bird to pull off his own
ticks, but he cannot reach the top of his own head and needs a
companion to do that for him. It would seem only fair that he should
return the favour later. But this service costs a bird time and energy,
albeit not much. If a bird can get away with cheating—with having
his own ticks removed but then refusing to reciprocate—he gains all
the benefits without paying the costs. Rank the outcomes, and you'll
find that indeed we have a true game of Prisoner's Dilemma. Both
cooperating (pulling each other's ticks off) is pretty good, but there
is still a temptation to do even better by refusing to pay the costs of
reciprocating. Both defecting (refusing to pull ticks off) is pretty bad,
but not so bad as putting effort into pulling another's ticks off and
still ending up infested with ticks oneself. The payoff matrix is
Figure B.



But this is only one example. The more you think about it, the
more you realize that life is riddled with Iterated Prisoner's Dilemma
games, not just human life but animal and plant life too. Plant life?
Yes, why not? Remember that we are not talking about conscious
strategies (though at times we might be), but about strategies in the
'Maynard Smithian' sense, strategies of the kind that genes might
preprogram. Later we shall meet plants, various animals and even
bacteria, all playing the game of Iterated Prisoner's Dilemma.
Meanwhile, let's explore more fully what is so important about
iteration.
Unlike the simple game, which is rather predictable in that
DEFECT is the only rational strategy, the iterated version offers plenty
of strategic scope. In the simple game there are only two possible
strategies, COOPERATE and DEFECT. Iteration, however, allows lots of
conceivable strategies, and it is by no means obvious which one is
best. The following, for instance, is just one among thousands:
'cooperate most of the time, but on a random 10 per cent of rounds
throw in a defect'. Or strategies might be conditional upon the past
history of the game. My 'Grudger' is an example of this; it has a good
memory for faces, and although fundamentally cooperative it defects
if the other player has ever defected before. Other strategies might
be more forgiving and have shorter memories.
Clearly the strategies available in the iterated game are limited
only by our ingenuity. Can we work out which is best? This was
the task that Axelrod set himself. He had the entertaining idea of
running a competition, and he advertised for experts in games
theory to submit strategies. Strategies, in this sense, are
preprogrammed rules for action, so it was appropriate for contestants
to send in their entries in computer language. Fourteen
strategies were submitted. For good measure Axelrod added a
fifteenth, called Random, which simply played COOPERATE and
DEFECT randomly, and served as a kind of baseline 'nonstrategy',
if a strategy can't do better than Random, it must be
pretty bad.
****************

I found that the results from Axelrod's competition, as well as his followup competition, were quite illuminating.
 
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