Honest question - women and men roles in Ukraine

[descartes]

Honest question here, no hate, no thoughtless comments please. It's a question that's been on my mind these past few weeks, but I dare not ask at work, or on socials....

With women and children fleeing Ukraine, the able bodied men are left to defend the country against the Russians. No doubt, whether fleeing or fighting, everyone is at great risk. And for the record, I would have it no other way, with the men staying to fight. This is, however, a very romantic, very traditional view on gender roles.

My question is this. As I am bombarded with International Women's Day and #breakthebias talk this week, how do women (and men) who champion equality reconcile having just the men staying back to fight?

This isn't meant to be a "gotcha" question. I have my own, traditional reasons why, none I imagine to be controversial. I am just curious on how modern women reconcile these differences in today's atmosphere of absolute, unquestioned equality.

 

[Vera.Reis]

I see you've done no research and are talking out your ass.

Only in 2018 were Ukrainian women allowed to participate equally in the military. Given this - it is absolutely astounding that over 15% of people fighting this war against Russia, are in fact women.

 

[Vera.Reis]

Furthermore, given the fact that men of age to be in the military are no longer allowed to leave the country, who do you exactly expect to help the CHILDREN get out of the country.

 

[Vera.Reis]

Imagine thinking a governments sexist impositions should be reconciled by women

 

[descartes]

I see you've done no research and are talking out your ass.

Only in 2018 were Ukrainian women allowed to participate equally in the military. Given this - it is absolutely astounding that over 15% of people fighting this war against Russia, are in fact women.

I'm referring to non military, civilians. All men 18-60 must stay to defend. So I'd say 90% of the men on this forum would be fighting, by choice or not.

So perhaps I'll ask YOU, as an equal, able bodied woman under 60, would/should you stay and fight, by choice or not?

And as for military, are you suggesting men and women serving should be equal, 50-50%?

There is no right answer. I'm most interested in your rationale.

 

[Vera.Reis]

For $1,000 I'll write you a properly cited essay of why your devils advocate attempt isn't fooling anyone, especially with ignoring my 2 other comments of this thread that clearly show why you're line of argument is flawed.

 

[JackBurton]

I see you've done no research and are talking out your ass.

Only in 2018 were Ukrainian women allowed to participate equally in the military. Given this - it is absolutely astounding that over 15% of people fighting this war against Russia, are in fact women.

15% is a far way from 50%.
Are you saying 35% more women should have been pressed into military service to defend the Ukraine?

 

[Vera.Reis]

15% is a far way from 50%.
Are you saying 35% more women should have been pressed into military service to defend the Ukraine?

Please delineate exactly where in my words this assumption was made, or where it seemed implied - through proper logical reasoning - because I think you'll find this is your own illogical extrapolation, and I don't argue with strawman.

 

[Vera.Reis]

Government: men of fighting age must stay

Women: oh shit guess we have to be the ones to remove the children

Terbites: wow this behavior is definitely something feminists should defend, those women should have stayed and fought if we are equal, even though they are the only ones who can take the kids to safety, fuck them kids and their safety!

 

[Bagilson]

For $1,000 I'll write you a properly cited essay of why your devils advocate attempt isn't fooling anyone, especially with ignoring my 2 other comments of this thread that clearly show why you're line of argument is flawed.

If I'm going to pay you $1000 it won't be to write things.

As for all women staying to fight, just the same as all the men; this is an impractical idea. As much as what I'm about to say next will make some scream in anger, it is none-the-less true; men and women are not identical. This is why we have separate sports leagues for men and women to compete. If you take the biggest baddest women on the planet, there is no don't she will be able to hand me my half century old ass on a platter. You take that same woman and match her up against the biggest baddest man on the planet, and she is toast. It is an empirically observable fact that the average female is weaker and smaller than the average male and on average women are not going to withstand the rigors of land combat as well or as long as men. That's why women in the military only became feasible with the advent of technology and why you see the majority of female military members in trades where size and strength don't matter, such as the pilots or naval officers/technicians.

 

[Bagilson]

Government: men of fighting age must stay

Women: oh shit guess we have to be the ones to remove the children

Terbites: wow this behavior is definitely something feminists should defend, those women should have stayed and fought if we are equal, even though they are the only ones who can take the kids to safety, fuck them kids and their safety!

Straw
Man

 

[Vera.Reis]

Straw
Man

Actually, every single one of those statements can be supported by comments that have been made here so nope.

Wow this behavior is something that feminists should defend + those women should have stayed and fought if we are equal = "how do women (and men) who champion equality reconcile having just the men staying back to fight?"

And "All men 18-60 must stay to defend. So I'd say 90% of the men on this forum would be fighting, by choice or not." Shows an understanding that only women can leave with children, as it was posted after I made that link very clear; If men can't leave, women must be the ones to evacuate the children, so therefore any further arguing that some women not staying behind is something that needs defending on the basis of equality infers a disregard for the safety of the children. The argument being made is "if women are equal they should have stayed and fought, despite the fact that they are the only ones who can evacuate the children".

 

[Vera.Reis]

If I'm going to pay you $1000 it won't be to write things.

As for all women staying to fight, just the same as all the men; this is an impractical idea. As much as what I'm about to say next will make some scream in anger, it is none-the-less true; men and women are not identical. This is why we have separate sports leagues for men and women to compete. If you take the biggest baddest women on the planet, there is no don't she will be able to hand me my half century old ass on a platter. You take that same woman and match her up against the biggest baddest man on the planet, and she is toast. It is an empirically observable fact that the average female is weaker and smaller than the average male and on average women are not going to withstand the rigors of land combat as well or as long as men. That's why women in the military only became feasible with the advent of technology and why you see the majority of female military members in trades where size and strength don't matter, such as the pilots or naval officers/technicians.

I think you're mixing up causal mechanisms. Where women were allowed to be in the military, they were known as fierce warriors, rarely have wars been fought by hand to hand combat, weapons have always been a prominent feature of conflict. A woman can shot a gun or a bow just as effectively as a man with the same training. Now, if a society discourages women from working out with heavy weights, learning to fight, learning how to use weapons etc then we actually can't infer anything because we cannot prove, without having a vast marjority of women engage in the same physical activities as men, that these differences are genetic rather than socially based.

 

[superstar_88]

Contrary to what some might think there are differences between men and women. Women have wombs. We're not at that stage yet where we can birth out babies in mechanical wombs. Hence the reason to protect the women and children from a Nation's standpoint.

 

[Vera.Reis]

Contrary to what some might think there are differences between men and women. Women have wombs. We're not at that stage yet where we can birth out babies in mechanical wombs. Hence the reason to protect the women and children from a Nation's standpoint.

This too, but either way, women aren't to blame for being put in a position where they are the only ones who can evacuate children.

 

[descartes]

Government: men of fighting age must stay

Women: oh shit guess we have to be the ones to remove the children

Terbites: wow this behavior is definitely something feminists should defend, those women should have stayed and fought if we are equal, even though they are the only ones who can take the kids to safety, fuck them kids and their safety!

The safety of the children is paramount. That's a huge reach, and some unfortunate to sarcasm, to suggest anyone saying otherwise.

Curious why you think only women are capable of evacuating children to safety. A father wouldn't be capable? It has to be a woman?

 

[Vera.Reis]

The safety of the children is paramount. That's a huge reach, and some unfortunate to sarcasm, to suggest anyone saying otherwise.

Curious why you think only women are capable of evacuating children to safety. A father wouldn't be capable? It has to be a woman?

Did you even read this thread? When the country has imposed a law that men ages 18-60 can't leave the country, yes, in those circumstances I do believe it is only the women who can do it, because they are literally the only adults who can leave. Unlike you, the people I'm replying to knew this was a fact in Ukraine right now, and are still questioning why the women are not staying to fight, so yes, it does imply they don't give a fuck about the children, because they think the women should be staying to fight because ~feminism~ instead of taking children to safety.

 

[JackBurton]

Please delineate exactly where in my words this assumption was made, or where it seen implied - through proper logical reasoning - because I think you'll find this is your own illogical extrapolation, and I don't argue with strawman.

You implied that women aren’t pulling their weight abs are being given preferential treatment over men.
Gotta pump those numbers up. If your country is attacked, wouldn’t you defend it?

Men, women and children defended Stalingrad because it was their home.

 

[Vera.Reis]

You implied that women aren’t pulling their weight abs are being given preferential treatment over men.
Gotta pump those numbers up. If your country is attacked, wouldn’t you defend it?

Men, women and children defended Stalingrad because it was their home.

I never implied that, at all, anywhere.

 

[Mr.Know-It-All]

without having a vast marjority of women engage in the same physical activities as men, that these differences are genetic rather than socially based.

lol yes we can...