A-ROD said:Fight! Fight! Fight!
Doesn't anyone kiss anymore??
Papa kisses every A-ROD he sells. He says its for good luck but I suspect something a little kinkier.
Homosexuality...
- Thread starter Quest4Less
- Start date
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Papa kisses every A-ROD he sells. He says its for good luck but I suspect something a little kinkier.
A-ROD said:I was trolling for cocks__kers and I think I just got a nibble...
If you are looking for cockshuckers speak to Cobster, he wears silk and is all ears.
In Reponse...
If it was nurture, how do you explain homosexual behaviour from children who are brought up in a heterosexual household? If it was nurture, how do you explain hetersexual children who live with homosexual parents?
Do you accept or reject EVERYTHING your parents taught you, that they valued, that was core to THEIR identity? how do explain persons who grow up in very religious households that reject religon entirely? What about the children of upstanding law abiding citizens who turn to crime?
If it's nurture, how do you explain a farm boy who is totally cut off from homosexual influence being a homosexual? I personally know a couple farm boy homosexuals. They frequent my business. If you never knew they were gay, you would never guess it. They act straight, obviously look like a reg cowboy but are as flaming as the walkers of the pride parade.
Show me someone who is "totally cut off" from external influences and I will show you someone who grew up on the moon. How can we say WHAT a "homosexual" influence is?
How do explain that homosexuality is more prevelant on some cultures than others? In some geographic areas than others?
My position is that it is a choice - not necessarily rooted in either nature or nuture. It is a choice, and hiding behind "who I am attracted too" to me is poppycock. I am attracted to women. I don't fuck them all, or even everyone who would gladly let me. I chose not to.
If it was nurture, how do you explain homosexual behaviour from children who are brought up in a heterosexual household? If it was nurture, how do you explain hetersexual children who live with homosexual parents?
Do you accept or reject EVERYTHING your parents taught you, that they valued, that was core to THEIR identity? how do explain persons who grow up in very religious households that reject religon entirely? What about the children of upstanding law abiding citizens who turn to crime?
If it's nurture, how do you explain a farm boy who is totally cut off from homosexual influence being a homosexual? I personally know a couple farm boy homosexuals. They frequent my business. If you never knew they were gay, you would never guess it. They act straight, obviously look like a reg cowboy but are as flaming as the walkers of the pride parade.
Show me someone who is "totally cut off" from external influences and I will show you someone who grew up on the moon. How can we say WHAT a "homosexual" influence is?
How do explain that homosexuality is more prevelant on some cultures than others? In some geographic areas than others?
My position is that it is a choice - not necessarily rooted in either nature or nuture. It is a choice, and hiding behind "who I am attracted too" to me is poppycock. I am attracted to women. I don't fuck them all, or even everyone who would gladly let me. I chose not to.
Well if, as you say, it is nurture, then how come the same results don't happen? If it's nurture, you would think that influence from surroundings has to do with the orientation of the individual.MLAM said:
I liken homosexuality to a preference of the mind. Just like baseball. I don't want to downgrade the topic here but I wanted to use an analogy.
Lets say I was born to a household of doctors who loved baseball. They watched baseball religiously, and on their free time they studied baseball almost as much as they studied medicine. They are adament about teaching me how to play baseball. I, on the other hand, have no liking for baseball.
You can't influence someone to like something that in their mind they inherently hate. It's a natural course for them to dislike whatever it is they like. Same goes for their likes. How can you nurture a behavioural pattern for a mind which is deadset against it.
Think about this. How many parents of the old guard do you think were proud to find out that their heterosexual household was shattered by their homosexual offspring? These households DO NOT NURTURE HOMOSEXUALITY. And don't even begin to tell us that homosexuality is the means of rebellion for some.
Well...
Well if, as you say, it is nurture, then how come the same results don't happen? If it's nurture, you would think that influence from surroundings has to do with the orientation of the individual.
Because individuals are just that. Given the same inputs we react differently to different things. Identicals twins are just that - yet most have differences in the way they lead their lives and everything else. I am certain their are identical twins with varying sexualities - I'd stake anything on it. Same physically - same parents - different life choices.
BTW - I didn't say it was nuture. I said it was a choice.
I liken homosexuality to a preference of the mind.
This is pretty much what I am saying as well. I do not doubt that homosexuals prefer the same sex versus a different sex to have intercourse with. I am saying that it is a choice - either way. To me, on some level, the preference itself is almost secondary to the conscious choice.
You can't influence someone to like something that in their mind they inherently hate. It's a natural course for them to dislike whatever it is they like. Same goes for their likes. How can you nurture a behavioural pattern for a mind which is deadset against it.
I agree with all this, but you seem to be implying that this like or dislike was something you were born with. I'd disagree. I would say it would have everything to do with the circumstances to which you were introduced to the game. It could be as simple as whether or not you caught or dropped the ball the first time it was tossed to you. I don't know - humans are very, very, very complex ceatures. I will say though that I would nver be convinced a person is born with a inclination to dislike baseball. And yes, I would say that a person is not born with an inclination to prefer intercourse with the same gender versus the opposite. i simply do not believe it, both based on my personal beliefs and for the reasons I gave (homosexuality percentages amongst the population vary by culture, geography, etc...)
Think about this. How many parents of the old guard do you think were proud to find out that their heterosexual household was shattered by their homosexual offspring? These households DO NOT NURTURE HOMOSEXUALITY. And don't even begin to tell us that homosexuality is the means of rebellion for some.
Ok, I won't tell you, even though that is what many homosexuals have said themselves.
That not withstanding - how does that relate to the nature / nuture question? I did not say homosexuals were homosexuals to spite their parents or anyhting else like that. I said it was a choice, made for reasons the person themselves may not fully understand. Again, I remind you that I never said it was "nuture"....
Well if, as you say, it is nurture, then how come the same results don't happen? If it's nurture, you would think that influence from surroundings has to do with the orientation of the individual.
Because individuals are just that. Given the same inputs we react differently to different things. Identicals twins are just that - yet most have differences in the way they lead their lives and everything else. I am certain their are identical twins with varying sexualities - I'd stake anything on it. Same physically - same parents - different life choices.
BTW - I didn't say it was nuture. I said it was a choice.
I liken homosexuality to a preference of the mind.
This is pretty much what I am saying as well. I do not doubt that homosexuals prefer the same sex versus a different sex to have intercourse with. I am saying that it is a choice - either way. To me, on some level, the preference itself is almost secondary to the conscious choice.
You can't influence someone to like something that in their mind they inherently hate. It's a natural course for them to dislike whatever it is they like. Same goes for their likes. How can you nurture a behavioural pattern for a mind which is deadset against it.
I agree with all this, but you seem to be implying that this like or dislike was something you were born with. I'd disagree. I would say it would have everything to do with the circumstances to which you were introduced to the game. It could be as simple as whether or not you caught or dropped the ball the first time it was tossed to you. I don't know - humans are very, very, very complex ceatures. I will say though that I would nver be convinced a person is born with a inclination to dislike baseball. And yes, I would say that a person is not born with an inclination to prefer intercourse with the same gender versus the opposite. i simply do not believe it, both based on my personal beliefs and for the reasons I gave (homosexuality percentages amongst the population vary by culture, geography, etc...)
Think about this. How many parents of the old guard do you think were proud to find out that their heterosexual household was shattered by their homosexual offspring? These households DO NOT NURTURE HOMOSEXUALITY. And don't even begin to tell us that homosexuality is the means of rebellion for some.
Ok, I won't tell you, even though that is what many homosexuals have said themselves.
That not withstanding - how does that relate to the nature / nuture question? I did not say homosexuals were homosexuals to spite their parents or anyhting else like that. I said it was a choice, made for reasons the person themselves may not fully understand. Again, I remind you that I never said it was "nuture"....
Dave in Phoenix
Well-known member
acutus said:
Happy to, these are old examples many more since but:
"A Polysexual, Polygendered World," In the Animal Kindom as in humans
Gay sheep may shed light on sexuality
November 5, 2002 Highlights
Complete article at http://europe.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/11/05/science.sheep.reut/index.html
Scientists studied 27 sheep -- 10 ewes, nine rams that mated only with other rams and eight rams that mated only with females.
WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- Gay sheep that mate only with other rams have different brain structures from "straight" sheep, a finding that may shed light on human sexuality, U.S. researchers said on Monday.
The differences are similar to those seen in some homosexual humans, but probably only go a small way to explaining the causes of different sexual preferences, the team at Oregon Health & Science University said.
Brains may hold the answer
First the scientists watched the sheep to be sure of their behavior -- something that cannot be done with humans. Then they took apart their brains.
"There had been reports in humans that a certain area of the hypothalamus, the preoptic area ... was usually larger in males than females," Roselli said. This area was also found to be larger in heterosexual humans than in homosexual men.
But the researchers had used the brains of men who had died of AIDS in their study, which meant the disease or drugs used to treat it could have had an effect on the brain.
"With an animal model you can be more selective and do more controlled studies," Roselli said. The sheep had similar differences in their brains, the researchers told a meeting in Orlando, Florida, of the Society for Neuroscience. "In a sense we confirmed what been found in humans," Roselli said. The brain cells in this area also made greater amounts of an enzyme called aromatase in the heterosexual rams. Aromatase is involved in the action of testosterone, the so-called male hormone.
Roselli believes that exposure to hormones while still in the mother's womb may affect the brain and cause differences in sexual preference, and more experiments will aim to show whether this is true.
===============================================
"A Polysexual, Polygendered World," In the Animal Kindom that is....
Gayness in the Animal Kingdom is very common and natural just as in man/women kind.
Biological Exuberance : Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity by Bruce Bagemihl,
751 pp, with illus, $40, ISBN 0-312-19239-8, New York, NY, St Martin's Press, 1999.
Reviewed in JAMA of the American Medical Assn April 26, 2000 Highlights:
Reviewed by William Byne, MD, PhD
A good thing about science is that, given enough time, it will eventually correct itself. Biological Exuberance by Bruce Bagemihl illustrates that self-correcting process by dispelling two prevalent myths: that reproduction is the sole reason for sexual behavior and that homosexuality is hard to find in the animal kingdom.
The book contains two sections. In the first, "A Polysexual, Polygendered World," Bagemihl examines the hidden assumptions behind the way scientists interpret homosexual behavior in animals. Assumptions that tend to explain animal homosexuality out of existence are carefully analyzed as are the double standards often used in characterizing behaviors as sexual when they involve members of the other but not the same sex.
As stated succinctly by James Lovelock, "as diversity increases, so does stability and resilience." From this perspective, diverse sexualities, including homosexualities, should be expected throughout the animal kingdom. Biological Exuberance thus offers a hypothesis for the maintenance within populations of homosexual behaviors and other behaviors that are often presumed to be at odds with reproduction.
The second section, "A Wonderful Bestiary," is organized in a field-guide format and documents homosexuality as well as "nonreproductive and alternative heterosexualities" in 190 species. In total, this abundantly illustrated book compiles more than two centuries of observations of homosexual behavior, pair bonding, and coparenting in more than 400 species. These include observations of species in which homosexual but not heterosexual pair bonding has been documented and others in which same-sex courtship and sexuality are so pervasive that "females are said to `mimic' males in order to mate with them." The sheer scope and thorough documentation of this book make it an extremely valuable resource for anyone interested in the diversity of animal behavior and sexuality.
"What is remarkable about the entire debate about the naturalness of homosexuality," according to Bagemihl, "is the frequent absence of any reference to concrete facts or accurate, comprehensive information about animal homosexuality." Heretofore, for reasons that are examined in the first section of the book, much of this information has been virtually inaccessible to scholars. Biological Exuberance fills that void, and there can no longer be any excuse for such omissions.
Another review:
He firmly dispels the prevailing notion that homosexuality is uniquely human and only occurs in "unnatural" circumstances. An overview of biologists' discomfort with their own observations of animal homosexuality over 200 years would be truly hilarious if it didn't reflect a tendency of humans (and only humans) to respond with aggression and hostility to same-sex behavior in our own species. In fact, Bagemihl reports, scientists have sometimes been afraid to report their observations for fear of recrimination from a hidebound (and homophobic) academia. Scientists' use of anthropomorphizing vocabulary such as insulting, unfortunate, and inappropriate to describe same-sex matings shows a decided lack of objectivity on the part of naturalists. Astounding as it sounds, a number of scientists have actually argued that when a female Bonobo wraps her legs around another female ... while emitting screams of enjoyment, this is actually "greeting" behavior, or "appeasement" behavior ... almost anything, it seems, besides pleasurable sexual behavior. Throw this book into the middle of a crowd of wildlife biologists and watch them scatter. But Bagemihl doesn't let the scientific community's discomfort deny him the opportunity to show "the love that dare not bark its name" in all its feathery, furry, toothy diversity. The second half of this hefty tome is filled with an exhaustive array of species that exhibit homosexuality, complete with photos and detailed scientific illustrations of the behaviors described. Biological Exuberance is a well-researched, thoroughly scientific, and erudite look at a purposefully neglected frontier of zoology. --Therese Littleton
Continued
Dave in Phoenix
Well-known member
GAY SHEEP COME OUT OF THE CLOSET
by Rex Wockner, 11/22/89
Eight percent of the male sheep at the United States Department of Agriculture's Sheep Experimental Station in Dubois, Idaho, are gay, officials confirmed in late November. "These animals are homosexual. They are responding physically to how they are," explained Anne Perkins, a doctoral student at the station who is completing her dissertation on "Reproductive Behavior In Rams." Station officials deferred to Perkins when asked for details on the matter.
"It's a very interesting model and we can learn a great deal about homosexuality from it," Perkins said. "They are not morally or culturally or ethically behaving like humans. These sheep are just doing what their bodies are telling them to do." Homosexuality among animals is "nothing real unique," according to Perkins, who said gay sex has been observed in 63 distinct mammalian species. "It's not considered aberrant in farm animals at all," she said.
The gay sheep, like some gay men, practice anal intercourse, according to Perkins, although some achieve orgasm simply by rubbing their penis around another male sheep's tail. There is, however, a serious social problem currently in gay sheep culture in that most gay sheep, Perkins said, only want to be on top. "The difficulty for homosexual sheep is that it's difficult to find another male who will stand still," Perkins explained. "If there is a ram that is hurt or caught in a fence, then they can mount him, but otherwise there are so few receivers that it becomes difficult for homosexuals to express themselves." Only two of the gay sheep in Perkins' study population don't mind being on the bottom. "They tolerate it," she said. "They may have been the wimps that got beat up so much that it was easier to tolerate it than anything else."
Lesbian sheep, meanwhile, are apparently wrestling with a major "invisibility" problem in the gay sheep world, a difficulty that has plagued human lesbians too. "It's very difficult to look at the possibility of lesbian sheep," Perkins explained, "because if you are a female sheep, what you do to solicit sex is stand still. You don't mount. So, it's very rare that a female sheep would mount another female sheep." "Maybe there is a female sheep out there really wanting another female," Perkins speculated, "but there's just no way for us to know it."
In addition to the rams who are practicing homosexuals, another eight percent of Perkins' ram population fail to express interest in any kind of sex. "They have a very low libido," she explained. Two percent of the gay sheep, meanwhile, begin dabbling in bisexuality following one year of exclusive homosexuality, Perkins said.
Researchers don't have many theories yet about why some sheep are gay, but Perkins says she is convinced that the animals are genuinely homosexual. "We're not embarrassed or ashamed of this," she added. "But we do hope it doesn't get twisted and distorted in a way that could do harm to the United States Department of Agriculture."
"Homosexuality/Bisexuality in the Animal Kingdom"
Judd Marmor, "Homosexual Behavior," 1980; chapter 1: Ambisexuality
in Animals, by R. H. Denniston, p. 34
Frequent homosexual activity has been described for all species of mammals of which careful observations have been made. This behavior is so common in domestic stock as to attract little notice from the husbandman, unless he chooses to use it for some specific purpose. Cows in heat so frequently mount other cows that the behavior is considered diagnostic of the estrous condition. Young bulls or steers are often used as "teasers" to arouse mature bulls in preparation for the collection of ejaculates for use in artificial insemination.
...Geist (1974) in his mountain sheep demonstrates that male-male mounting is a "normal" part behavior and happens frequently. When a dominant ram is courting and copulating with an estrous ewe, the subordinate males become excited and mount each other indiscriminately. Geist counted sixty-nine male homosexual mounts out of one hundred encounters in such a situation. Feral goats show the same behavior. Rams may ejaculate at any time during the year in homosexual interaction.
...[p. 35] Young (1961) describes estrous mounting in twelve species of animals ranging from the shrew to the chimpanzee. .P ...[p. 37] According to McBride and Hebb (1948) ... the mature male dolphin has perhaps as broad an array of self-stimulating methods as has the mature human male. The males show evidence of sexual excitation throughout the year. Much of this evidence is in the area of homosexual behavior. .P ...Both male and female homosexual behaviors are shown in the primates, but the former is more obvious and may go to apparent climax per anum. .P ...[p. 38] Female primate homosexual behavior seems to take the form of mutual grooming, including oral contacts with the external genitalia and occasional mounts. .P ...Cow elephants in one-sexed groups spend much time masturbating each other with their trunks (Morris, 1970). .P ...This survey of homosexual activity among lower animals should serve to explode several widely held misconceptions. First, it certainly is not a uniquely human practice. It occurs in every type of animal that has been carefully studied. Second, it has little relation to hormonal or structural abnormality. Even as lowly an organism as the fish show homosexuality related to social dominance-subordination conditioning rather than to endocrine aberrations. It is behavioral preconditioning that is directive, with hormones playing a permissive or generalized activating role.
Other articles
Agar, M.E. & Mitchell, G., 1975
Behavior of free-ranging rhesus adults: a review. In Bourne, G. (Ed.) The Rhesus Monkey (Vol. I, Chapter 8). New York: Academic Press, pp. 323-342
Carpenter, C. R., 1942
Sexual behaviour of free-ranging rhesus monkeys (Macaca mulatta). II: Periodicity of estrus, homosexual, autoerotic and nonconformist behavior J COMPARATIVE PSYCH. 33: 143-162
Dagg, A. I., 1984
Homosexual behaviour and female-male mounting in mammals - a first survey. MAMMAL. REV. 14(4): 155-185
Edwards, A-M. A. R. & Todd, J. D., 1991
Homosexual behaviour in wild white-handed gibbons (Hylobates lar) PRIMATES 32(2): 231-236
Erwin, J. & Maple, T., 1976
Ambisexual behavior with male-male anal penetration in male rhesus monkeys. ARCH. SEXUAL BEHAV. 5(1): 9-14
Fairbanks, L. & McGuire, M., 1977
Homosexual behavior and female aggression in rhesus macaques. Paper presented at the Western Psychological Association meeting, Seattle, Washington, April.
Fox, G. S., 1977
Social dynamics in siamang. Doctoral dissertation, University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee.
Goy, R. W. & Goldfoot, D. A. 1975
Neuroendocrinology: animal models and problems of human sexuality ARCH. SEXUAL BEHAV. 4(4): 405-420.
Kling, A. & Dunne, K., 1976
Social-environmental factors affecting behavior and plasma testosterone in normal and amygdala lesioned M. speciosa PRIMATES 17(1): 23-42
Kuroda, S., 1980
Social behaviour of the pygmy chimpanzee PRIMATES 21: 181-197
van Lawick-Goodall, J., 1968
The behaviour of free-living chimpanzees in the Gombe Stream reserve ANIM. BEHAV. MONOGR. 1(3): 161-311
Yamagiwa, J., 1987
Intra- and inter-group interactions of an all-male group of Virunga Mountain gorillas (Gorilla gorilla berengei) PRIMATES 28: 1-30
--
by Rex Wockner, 11/22/89
Eight percent of the male sheep at the United States Department of Agriculture's Sheep Experimental Station in Dubois, Idaho, are gay, officials confirmed in late November. "These animals are homosexual. They are responding physically to how they are," explained Anne Perkins, a doctoral student at the station who is completing her dissertation on "Reproductive Behavior In Rams." Station officials deferred to Perkins when asked for details on the matter.
"It's a very interesting model and we can learn a great deal about homosexuality from it," Perkins said. "They are not morally or culturally or ethically behaving like humans. These sheep are just doing what their bodies are telling them to do." Homosexuality among animals is "nothing real unique," according to Perkins, who said gay sex has been observed in 63 distinct mammalian species. "It's not considered aberrant in farm animals at all," she said.
The gay sheep, like some gay men, practice anal intercourse, according to Perkins, although some achieve orgasm simply by rubbing their penis around another male sheep's tail. There is, however, a serious social problem currently in gay sheep culture in that most gay sheep, Perkins said, only want to be on top. "The difficulty for homosexual sheep is that it's difficult to find another male who will stand still," Perkins explained. "If there is a ram that is hurt or caught in a fence, then they can mount him, but otherwise there are so few receivers that it becomes difficult for homosexuals to express themselves." Only two of the gay sheep in Perkins' study population don't mind being on the bottom. "They tolerate it," she said. "They may have been the wimps that got beat up so much that it was easier to tolerate it than anything else."
Lesbian sheep, meanwhile, are apparently wrestling with a major "invisibility" problem in the gay sheep world, a difficulty that has plagued human lesbians too. "It's very difficult to look at the possibility of lesbian sheep," Perkins explained, "because if you are a female sheep, what you do to solicit sex is stand still. You don't mount. So, it's very rare that a female sheep would mount another female sheep." "Maybe there is a female sheep out there really wanting another female," Perkins speculated, "but there's just no way for us to know it."
In addition to the rams who are practicing homosexuals, another eight percent of Perkins' ram population fail to express interest in any kind of sex. "They have a very low libido," she explained. Two percent of the gay sheep, meanwhile, begin dabbling in bisexuality following one year of exclusive homosexuality, Perkins said.
Researchers don't have many theories yet about why some sheep are gay, but Perkins says she is convinced that the animals are genuinely homosexual. "We're not embarrassed or ashamed of this," she added. "But we do hope it doesn't get twisted and distorted in a way that could do harm to the United States Department of Agriculture."
"Homosexuality/Bisexuality in the Animal Kingdom"
Judd Marmor, "Homosexual Behavior," 1980; chapter 1: Ambisexuality
in Animals, by R. H. Denniston, p. 34
Frequent homosexual activity has been described for all species of mammals of which careful observations have been made. This behavior is so common in domestic stock as to attract little notice from the husbandman, unless he chooses to use it for some specific purpose. Cows in heat so frequently mount other cows that the behavior is considered diagnostic of the estrous condition. Young bulls or steers are often used as "teasers" to arouse mature bulls in preparation for the collection of ejaculates for use in artificial insemination.
...Geist (1974) in his mountain sheep demonstrates that male-male mounting is a "normal" part behavior and happens frequently. When a dominant ram is courting and copulating with an estrous ewe, the subordinate males become excited and mount each other indiscriminately. Geist counted sixty-nine male homosexual mounts out of one hundred encounters in such a situation. Feral goats show the same behavior. Rams may ejaculate at any time during the year in homosexual interaction.
...[p. 35] Young (1961) describes estrous mounting in twelve species of animals ranging from the shrew to the chimpanzee. .P ...[p. 37] According to McBride and Hebb (1948) ... the mature male dolphin has perhaps as broad an array of self-stimulating methods as has the mature human male. The males show evidence of sexual excitation throughout the year. Much of this evidence is in the area of homosexual behavior. .P ...Both male and female homosexual behaviors are shown in the primates, but the former is more obvious and may go to apparent climax per anum. .P ...[p. 38] Female primate homosexual behavior seems to take the form of mutual grooming, including oral contacts with the external genitalia and occasional mounts. .P ...Cow elephants in one-sexed groups spend much time masturbating each other with their trunks (Morris, 1970). .P ...This survey of homosexual activity among lower animals should serve to explode several widely held misconceptions. First, it certainly is not a uniquely human practice. It occurs in every type of animal that has been carefully studied. Second, it has little relation to hormonal or structural abnormality. Even as lowly an organism as the fish show homosexuality related to social dominance-subordination conditioning rather than to endocrine aberrations. It is behavioral preconditioning that is directive, with hormones playing a permissive or generalized activating role.
Other articles
Agar, M.E. & Mitchell, G., 1975
Behavior of free-ranging rhesus adults: a review. In Bourne, G. (Ed.) The Rhesus Monkey (Vol. I, Chapter 8). New York: Academic Press, pp. 323-342
Carpenter, C. R., 1942
Sexual behaviour of free-ranging rhesus monkeys (Macaca mulatta). II: Periodicity of estrus, homosexual, autoerotic and nonconformist behavior J COMPARATIVE PSYCH. 33: 143-162
Dagg, A. I., 1984
Homosexual behaviour and female-male mounting in mammals - a first survey. MAMMAL. REV. 14(4): 155-185
Edwards, A-M. A. R. & Todd, J. D., 1991
Homosexual behaviour in wild white-handed gibbons (Hylobates lar) PRIMATES 32(2): 231-236
Erwin, J. & Maple, T., 1976
Ambisexual behavior with male-male anal penetration in male rhesus monkeys. ARCH. SEXUAL BEHAV. 5(1): 9-14
Fairbanks, L. & McGuire, M., 1977
Homosexual behavior and female aggression in rhesus macaques. Paper presented at the Western Psychological Association meeting, Seattle, Washington, April.
Fox, G. S., 1977
Social dynamics in siamang. Doctoral dissertation, University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee.
Goy, R. W. & Goldfoot, D. A. 1975
Neuroendocrinology: animal models and problems of human sexuality ARCH. SEXUAL BEHAV. 4(4): 405-420.
Kling, A. & Dunne, K., 1976
Social-environmental factors affecting behavior and plasma testosterone in normal and amygdala lesioned M. speciosa PRIMATES 17(1): 23-42
Kuroda, S., 1980
Social behaviour of the pygmy chimpanzee PRIMATES 21: 181-197
van Lawick-Goodall, J., 1968
The behaviour of free-living chimpanzees in the Gombe Stream reserve ANIM. BEHAV. MONOGR. 1(3): 161-311
Yamagiwa, J., 1987
Intra- and inter-group interactions of an all-male group of Virunga Mountain gorillas (Gorilla gorilla berengei) PRIMATES 28: 1-30
--
Dave in Phoenix
Well-known member
Even guiltying gays and telling them they will go to hell can't change natural sexual orientation.
Gay 'disease' has no cure, so stop trying
July 1998 By Frank Rich, New York Times
In the latest volley in the escalating, Trent Lott-inspired culture war against gay Americans, 15 religious-right organizations have co-sponsored full-page ads in national newspapers, the New York Times included, to promote the idea that Christian "hope and healing" can rid homosexuals of their sinful ways. The human face for this campaign is Anne Paulk, billed as "wife, mother, former lesbian," but a far more credible poster boy would be Marshall Applewhite, the departed guru of Heaven's Gate.
Paulk represents Exodus International, an association of "ex-gay" ministries and agencies that purport to "change" gay people into straight. Yet the ads don't mention that two Exodus co-founders, Michael Bussee and Gary Cooper, not only failed to "change" but fell in love and exited Exo-dus to start a family they consecrated with a marriage ceremony.
Exodus' unscientific boasts of "success" in general must be taken on faith, and even Paulk's status as a "former lesbian" has been questioned by Margaret Carlson in this week's Time magazine.
But of Applewhite's "change," at least, there can be no doubt: With castration and suicide, he did successfully rid himself and some of his co-religionists of homosexual-ity.
Short of Applewhite's final solution, there is no sound research to suggest that a homosexual can be transformed into a het-erosexual, were that even a desired goal, any more than a heterosexual can be turned gay.
What really happens is a suppression process," said Doug Upchurch, 3O, a computer trade-association executive who spent 12 years being "cured" by ex- gay ministries and now proselytizes against them on the Web .
Though Upchurch had girlfriends and "had experiences with the girlfriends physically," he couldn't change his sexual orientation and eventually realized he didn't want to. He now lives happily with a male partner.
Homosexuality is not a disease and needs no "cure." For all the tough-love sentiments, the real' agenda of this $200,000 Christian Coalition-Family Research Council media blitz is not to heal but to divide Americans for political advantage. By pushing the, false premise that homosexuality is not an innate human condition but a sinful choice that can be reversed through prayer and counseling, the ad's sponsors are putting it in the same category as kleptomania and alcoholism, much as did Lott (whose name is invoked in the ads).
From there, it's only a small step to the argument that gay Americans who refuse to change are no more entitled to civil rights protections than thieves are. "The false premise that homosexuality is a choice also facilitates the ads', promotion of such gay bashing canards as "homosexual recruitment in, public schools."
If Lott and the other congressional leaders, Dick Armey and Tom DeLay, who share his views really want to prove that all gay people should and can turn straight, why don't they begin the experiment at home, by "healing" their own party?
They could enlist high-profile gay Republicans such as Rep Jim Kolbe and D'Amato-Pataki political strategist Arthur Finkelstein in ex-gay ministries, along with gay Capitol Hill staffers, then publicize the results.
"Change" Ministries Abusive
By Steve Smith Denver Colo. July 1998
I am a former "ex-gay" who spent the better part of a decade trying to change my sexual orientation. I spent several years involved in a "change" ministry that teaches gays can "reclaim" their heterosexuality through prayer, Bible study, self-denial, and faith in God.
I committed my life to God, as they advocate, adhered strictly to the scriptural principles they endorsed and waited patiently. Although I was successful at changing my sexual behavior for several years, my same-sex attraction did not change in the least, and I became increasingly anxious, depressed and hopeless.
I have had contact with many of the individuals who participated with me in the program. The vast majority have shared similar experiences. Many former participants with whom I've talked now identify their experiences in these programs as spiritually and psychologically abusive.
Other facts and references
The only "cure" for sexual orientation is ending the biblical lies that there is anything wrong with it and ending prejudice.
The clear history of Gay Conversions show they are fake and the terrible harm done trying to change youy God given sexual orientation based on false teachings and lies about what scripture teaches about natural homosexuality
Sadly many who turn to conversion ministries get a life of continued guilt and despair. It's no wonder that 30% of gay teenagers attempt suicide when faced with this kind of guilt- instilling and self-loathing education. May God save His suffering gay children from the abuse and despair brought on by the well-intentioned, albeit ignorant and destructive, efforts of uninformed Christians and groups like Quest and Exodus.
Here is sample of material that de-bunks the "ex-gay" claims of groups like Exodus. "Ex- Gays? There Are None" by Sylvia Pennington who worked for a "deliverance" ministry, but became convinced that it doesn't work nor does God demand it. The book is documented in great detail and discusses the Colin Cook/Homosexuals Anonymous scandal. PBS also has shown the absurdity of curing gays and the Psychobabble gone psycho trying to falsely try and make it a emotional problem. It discusses former ex-gays such as the Founders of Exodus preaching the change myth, until they fell in love with each other. This might be funny, except we find little humor in the brainwashing tactics Exodus uses.
Gay 'disease' has no cure, so stop trying
July 1998 By Frank Rich, New York Times
In the latest volley in the escalating, Trent Lott-inspired culture war against gay Americans, 15 religious-right organizations have co-sponsored full-page ads in national newspapers, the New York Times included, to promote the idea that Christian "hope and healing" can rid homosexuals of their sinful ways. The human face for this campaign is Anne Paulk, billed as "wife, mother, former lesbian," but a far more credible poster boy would be Marshall Applewhite, the departed guru of Heaven's Gate.
Paulk represents Exodus International, an association of "ex-gay" ministries and agencies that purport to "change" gay people into straight. Yet the ads don't mention that two Exodus co-founders, Michael Bussee and Gary Cooper, not only failed to "change" but fell in love and exited Exo-dus to start a family they consecrated with a marriage ceremony.
Exodus' unscientific boasts of "success" in general must be taken on faith, and even Paulk's status as a "former lesbian" has been questioned by Margaret Carlson in this week's Time magazine.
But of Applewhite's "change," at least, there can be no doubt: With castration and suicide, he did successfully rid himself and some of his co-religionists of homosexual-ity.
Short of Applewhite's final solution, there is no sound research to suggest that a homosexual can be transformed into a het-erosexual, were that even a desired goal, any more than a heterosexual can be turned gay.
What really happens is a suppression process," said Doug Upchurch, 3O, a computer trade-association executive who spent 12 years being "cured" by ex- gay ministries and now proselytizes against them on the Web .
Though Upchurch had girlfriends and "had experiences with the girlfriends physically," he couldn't change his sexual orientation and eventually realized he didn't want to. He now lives happily with a male partner.
Homosexuality is not a disease and needs no "cure." For all the tough-love sentiments, the real' agenda of this $200,000 Christian Coalition-Family Research Council media blitz is not to heal but to divide Americans for political advantage. By pushing the, false premise that homosexuality is not an innate human condition but a sinful choice that can be reversed through prayer and counseling, the ad's sponsors are putting it in the same category as kleptomania and alcoholism, much as did Lott (whose name is invoked in the ads).
From there, it's only a small step to the argument that gay Americans who refuse to change are no more entitled to civil rights protections than thieves are. "The false premise that homosexuality is a choice also facilitates the ads', promotion of such gay bashing canards as "homosexual recruitment in, public schools."
If Lott and the other congressional leaders, Dick Armey and Tom DeLay, who share his views really want to prove that all gay people should and can turn straight, why don't they begin the experiment at home, by "healing" their own party?
They could enlist high-profile gay Republicans such as Rep Jim Kolbe and D'Amato-Pataki political strategist Arthur Finkelstein in ex-gay ministries, along with gay Capitol Hill staffers, then publicize the results.
"Change" Ministries Abusive
By Steve Smith Denver Colo. July 1998
I am a former "ex-gay" who spent the better part of a decade trying to change my sexual orientation. I spent several years involved in a "change" ministry that teaches gays can "reclaim" their heterosexuality through prayer, Bible study, self-denial, and faith in God.
I committed my life to God, as they advocate, adhered strictly to the scriptural principles they endorsed and waited patiently. Although I was successful at changing my sexual behavior for several years, my same-sex attraction did not change in the least, and I became increasingly anxious, depressed and hopeless.
I have had contact with many of the individuals who participated with me in the program. The vast majority have shared similar experiences. Many former participants with whom I've talked now identify their experiences in these programs as spiritually and psychologically abusive.
Other facts and references
The only "cure" for sexual orientation is ending the biblical lies that there is anything wrong with it and ending prejudice.
The clear history of Gay Conversions show they are fake and the terrible harm done trying to change youy God given sexual orientation based on false teachings and lies about what scripture teaches about natural homosexuality
Sadly many who turn to conversion ministries get a life of continued guilt and despair. It's no wonder that 30% of gay teenagers attempt suicide when faced with this kind of guilt- instilling and self-loathing education. May God save His suffering gay children from the abuse and despair brought on by the well-intentioned, albeit ignorant and destructive, efforts of uninformed Christians and groups like Quest and Exodus.
Here is sample of material that de-bunks the "ex-gay" claims of groups like Exodus. "Ex- Gays? There Are None" by Sylvia Pennington who worked for a "deliverance" ministry, but became convinced that it doesn't work nor does God demand it. The book is documented in great detail and discusses the Colin Cook/Homosexuals Anonymous scandal. PBS also has shown the absurdity of curing gays and the Psychobabble gone psycho trying to falsely try and make it a emotional problem. It discusses former ex-gays such as the Founders of Exodus preaching the change myth, until they fell in love with each other. This might be funny, except we find little humor in the brainwashing tactics Exodus uses.
Dave in Phoenix
Well-known member
Another example is Kent Philpott's book, The Third Sex, in which he gives the testimonies of six homosexuals who supposedly became heterosexual. Within a year after the book was published, all six of the people written about sent notarized affidavits to the publisher, stating that the book was untrue and that they were all still homosexuals. Nevertheless, the book continued to be printed and sold to an unwary public for eight years afterwards. To this day, people are "praising God" for changes that never took place. The continued publication of that book, along with its promulgation for eight years after having received written denials from the subjects themselves, highlight the extent of deception fundamentalists are willing to go to foster belief in a goal based on illusion rather than reality. With fundamentalism it appears that honesty and truth are expendable items.
The Kinsey Institute has had an open offer for nearly 40 years to report on a SINGLE case of a true change in sexual orientation, not just behavior. In 40 years there has not been a single scientifically documented case of changed sexual orientation.
On Prodigy Richard Kennedy Jr : I worked on a national syndicated TV show. We contacted numerous groups to find individuals who were former homosexuals and were "cured." Getting lists of names, we called each one. One of our first questions was "did you consider yourself homosexual or bi-sexual before going in for treatment?" EVERYONE of the hundred-plus people we contacted (and remember our names came from the clinics) told us they were bi-sexual. We never found one who (out of 120 people) was "formerly gay" and "now is straight". We also asked the bi-sexual "cured" if they still have a sexual desire toward same sex contacts. Almost everyone who had been "cured" claimed to still have such desires. The handful of those "totally cured" were asked when they finished their treatment not one had their "cure" last more than 2 months. We never found a candidate for the "cured" homosexual program, so we had bisexuals instead.
Thousands of gay and lesbian Christians who previously sought any means to change have now found healing from the self loathing society and the church has taught them to feel. They have gone on to develop Gay Christian organizations such as SDA s Kinship, Catholics Grace, also Dignity, Integrity, Affirmation, Evangelicals United, Reconciling Congregations, and the Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches where they can truly share the Good News of God's love for all his people. They have further helped Gays and Lesbians learn to life lives of honesty and integrity, something which Exodus and the other "lie about who you are for the sake of acceptance: organizations can never do.
Yet another result of the Change Ministries lies about homosexuality: Rev. T.V. Moreland, pastor of Suburban Baptist Church of Glendale Calf, was convicted 6/22/94 of involuntary manslaughter for the death of Michael Larkin, who died of a self- inflicted gunshot wound. Larkin had been under pastoral counseling from Rev. Moreland for several months prior to his suicide. Notes and diaries found in Larkin's home and testimony from his friends and family revealed that Rev. Moreland had attempted unsuccessfully to change Larkin's homosexual orientation. According to Reinzi Page, Los Angeles Country Assistant District Attorney, this counseling caused Larkin to fall into a deep depression and was the direct, material cause of his taking his own life.
And more research: After more than 40 years of research on gender identity and sexual orientation, John Money, director of the Psychohormonal Research Unit of the John Hopkins School of Medicine, has observed that "it is no more possible to change a homosexual orientation into a heterosexual one than it is to change a heterosexual orientation into a homosexual one." He reports that claims of change in orientations when carefully examined turn out to be those of "persons who are bisexual to some degree, but are not 100% homosexual, nor 100% heterosexual."
It's not possible to change someone's sexual orientation, but it is possible to make them miserable over it. Fundamentalists play on the spiritually and emotionally wounded. Using the tenets of born-again fundamentalism, they try auto convince dissatisfied homosexuals - usually young gay men just coming out who are stressed out by family pressure and society's intolerance -that they can change by suppressing their orientation.
The Fundamentalists prey on people who are unhappy. what they can't see or won't admit is that they themselves are the sources of this very unhappiness they claim to be treating.
As one Gay Christian said to someone claiming he knew "cured homos":
I have no doubt that you can present a few homosexuals who have been "cured." For more years than I care to recall, I fervently believed that all I had to do was be a good christian, get married, have a family, do what ??god?? told me, and forget this evil and perverse urge that pervaded my being. I went through a neat little christian invention called aversion therapy. I went through hours of prayer. I went through a lifetime of self denial During those years, I would have died before I would have admitted to being Gay.
Having been there, I truly pity your "cured homos." I just hope that a few of them will see some of the recent posts in this news group and have the courage to go check out the research for themselves.
Aug. 14, 1997 -- The governing body of the 151,000-member American Psychological Association today passed a resolution affirming that homosexuality is not a mental illness and opposing so-called ``conversion'' therapies. At the APA annual meeting in Chicago, members say such therapies have not been proven effective and prey on prejudice and ignorance of sexual orientation.
Supporters of the resolution, approved by the APA's Council of Representatives by an overwhelming margin, argued that it was critical for the APA to make such a statement due to questions of the ethics, efficacy and benefits of conversion therapy.
Countless people have been misled by ex-gay ministries into believing that sexual orientation can be changed, only to find, even years later, that they had found only temporary happiness in the delusion that they had changed. These "ex-gays" no longer call themselves gay but continue to have same-sex feelings, dreams and arousal. Add to that the pain of many spouses of these individuals who thought they had married a heterosexual.
Anyone can suppress one's feelings and live a lie, for a time, but it doesn't work in the long run. Besides, living a lies doesn't seem like much of a Christian ethic. I've known dozens of gay men who at one time or another were pressured or lured into the fundamentalist-run ex-gay movement and all it caused them was more pain. No one I know ever changed. Not only that, no gay person I've ever met has known anyone who changed.
When you look at someone trying to be an "ex-gay" what you find are rather sad, desperate people playing mind games and semantics, no "cures" or lasting changes. The whole motivation behind the movement to change gays is political - fundamentalist and conservative politics dressed up in a lab coat.
The American Psychological Association (750 1st Street NE, Washington DC 20002-4242, Telephone 202-336-5700) has published a free booklet "Answers To Your Questions About Sexual Orientation And Homosexuality" I recommend it highly to anyone who wants unbiased information on this to
The above from: THE DAILY DISPATCH, Moline, Ill.
August 3,1995, Guest column by William Stosine
The Kinsey Institute has had an open offer for nearly 40 years to report on a SINGLE case of a true change in sexual orientation, not just behavior. In 40 years there has not been a single scientifically documented case of changed sexual orientation.
On Prodigy Richard Kennedy Jr : I worked on a national syndicated TV show. We contacted numerous groups to find individuals who were former homosexuals and were "cured." Getting lists of names, we called each one. One of our first questions was "did you consider yourself homosexual or bi-sexual before going in for treatment?" EVERYONE of the hundred-plus people we contacted (and remember our names came from the clinics) told us they were bi-sexual. We never found one who (out of 120 people) was "formerly gay" and "now is straight". We also asked the bi-sexual "cured" if they still have a sexual desire toward same sex contacts. Almost everyone who had been "cured" claimed to still have such desires. The handful of those "totally cured" were asked when they finished their treatment not one had their "cure" last more than 2 months. We never found a candidate for the "cured" homosexual program, so we had bisexuals instead.
Thousands of gay and lesbian Christians who previously sought any means to change have now found healing from the self loathing society and the church has taught them to feel. They have gone on to develop Gay Christian organizations such as SDA s Kinship, Catholics Grace, also Dignity, Integrity, Affirmation, Evangelicals United, Reconciling Congregations, and the Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches where they can truly share the Good News of God's love for all his people. They have further helped Gays and Lesbians learn to life lives of honesty and integrity, something which Exodus and the other "lie about who you are for the sake of acceptance: organizations can never do.
Yet another result of the Change Ministries lies about homosexuality: Rev. T.V. Moreland, pastor of Suburban Baptist Church of Glendale Calf, was convicted 6/22/94 of involuntary manslaughter for the death of Michael Larkin, who died of a self- inflicted gunshot wound. Larkin had been under pastoral counseling from Rev. Moreland for several months prior to his suicide. Notes and diaries found in Larkin's home and testimony from his friends and family revealed that Rev. Moreland had attempted unsuccessfully to change Larkin's homosexual orientation. According to Reinzi Page, Los Angeles Country Assistant District Attorney, this counseling caused Larkin to fall into a deep depression and was the direct, material cause of his taking his own life.
And more research: After more than 40 years of research on gender identity and sexual orientation, John Money, director of the Psychohormonal Research Unit of the John Hopkins School of Medicine, has observed that "it is no more possible to change a homosexual orientation into a heterosexual one than it is to change a heterosexual orientation into a homosexual one." He reports that claims of change in orientations when carefully examined turn out to be those of "persons who are bisexual to some degree, but are not 100% homosexual, nor 100% heterosexual."
It's not possible to change someone's sexual orientation, but it is possible to make them miserable over it. Fundamentalists play on the spiritually and emotionally wounded. Using the tenets of born-again fundamentalism, they try auto convince dissatisfied homosexuals - usually young gay men just coming out who are stressed out by family pressure and society's intolerance -that they can change by suppressing their orientation.
The Fundamentalists prey on people who are unhappy. what they can't see or won't admit is that they themselves are the sources of this very unhappiness they claim to be treating.
As one Gay Christian said to someone claiming he knew "cured homos":
I have no doubt that you can present a few homosexuals who have been "cured." For more years than I care to recall, I fervently believed that all I had to do was be a good christian, get married, have a family, do what ??god?? told me, and forget this evil and perverse urge that pervaded my being. I went through a neat little christian invention called aversion therapy. I went through hours of prayer. I went through a lifetime of self denial During those years, I would have died before I would have admitted to being Gay.
Having been there, I truly pity your "cured homos." I just hope that a few of them will see some of the recent posts in this news group and have the courage to go check out the research for themselves.
Aug. 14, 1997 -- The governing body of the 151,000-member American Psychological Association today passed a resolution affirming that homosexuality is not a mental illness and opposing so-called ``conversion'' therapies. At the APA annual meeting in Chicago, members say such therapies have not been proven effective and prey on prejudice and ignorance of sexual orientation.
Supporters of the resolution, approved by the APA's Council of Representatives by an overwhelming margin, argued that it was critical for the APA to make such a statement due to questions of the ethics, efficacy and benefits of conversion therapy.
Countless people have been misled by ex-gay ministries into believing that sexual orientation can be changed, only to find, even years later, that they had found only temporary happiness in the delusion that they had changed. These "ex-gays" no longer call themselves gay but continue to have same-sex feelings, dreams and arousal. Add to that the pain of many spouses of these individuals who thought they had married a heterosexual.
Anyone can suppress one's feelings and live a lie, for a time, but it doesn't work in the long run. Besides, living a lies doesn't seem like much of a Christian ethic. I've known dozens of gay men who at one time or another were pressured or lured into the fundamentalist-run ex-gay movement and all it caused them was more pain. No one I know ever changed. Not only that, no gay person I've ever met has known anyone who changed.
When you look at someone trying to be an "ex-gay" what you find are rather sad, desperate people playing mind games and semantics, no "cures" or lasting changes. The whole motivation behind the movement to change gays is political - fundamentalist and conservative politics dressed up in a lab coat.
The American Psychological Association (750 1st Street NE, Washington DC 20002-4242, Telephone 202-336-5700) has published a free booklet "Answers To Your Questions About Sexual Orientation And Homosexuality" I recommend it highly to anyone who wants unbiased information on this to
The above from: THE DAILY DISPATCH, Moline, Ill.
August 3,1995, Guest column by William Stosine
Dave in Phoenix
Well-known member
Many Realize the Absurdity Of Curing Gays
Changing Homosexuality - Atlantic Monthly March 1993
After many terrible attempts at "curing" homosexuals Kinsey showed homosexuality to be surprisingly common across lines of family, class and education. Kinsey for many years tried to find patients who had been converted by therapy and was surprised they could not find one whose sexual orientation had been changed. When they interviewed persons who claimed they have been changed they found that all were simply suppressing homosexual behavior...and they used homosexual fantasies to maintain potency when they attempted intercourse. One man claimed that, although he had once actively homosexual, he had now "cut out all of that and don't even think of men - except when I masturbate."
In 1956 in Chicago a psychologist Evelyn Hooker was puzzled about her training of gayness as a emotional problem when she had a gay friend who seemed quite healthy and well adjusted. She received a grant from the Natl Inst of Health to study a group of gay men who had never had emotional therapy and a similar heterosexual control group. She was prepared to conclude the gay men were not as well adjusted as they appeared. Hooker did extensive psychological tests on both groups in a blind study and gave the unidentified results to three eminent psychologists. One, Bruno Klopfer was convinced he would find the gay men by the tests. As it turned out, none of the three could tell from all the tests which were gay. They were indistinguishable, demonstrating an equal distribution of pathology and mental health. Her study was the first of many that followed which led to the ending of the APAs treating gayness as a disease in the 1970s.
The article discusses the brain studies including the critical statements of Anne Fausto a Brown University geneticist. The article was written before the latest gene marker finding which Ms Fausto has been quoted as being sound science. The articles discusses genital adrenal hyperplasia examining the effects of prenatal sex hormones and luteinizing-hormone feedback. Studies seem to support that this can cause especially lesbianism. The article is a comprehensive study of recognized scientific biological and psychological studies before the latest gene study which provides more confirming evidence. CONCLUSION - Five decades of psychiatric evidence demonstrates that homosexuality is immutable, and non pathological, and growing evidence is implicating biology as the primary cause of homosexuality. How can one justify discrimination against people on the basis of such a characteristic? Science can show the whys of homosexuality, but not answer the more important questions involving human rights, human freedom, human tolerance and love. It is such a pity that sincere homosexuals, many of them Christian have to go through the terrible pains of a society that still thinks homosexuality is more like Epilepsy which was regarded in Biblical times as demon possession - but not a disease, a natural orientation. Soon it will be clear homosexuality is a natural God given orientation that should be uplifted as Gods creation not judged based on scriptures falsely interpreted that have
absolutely nothing to do with condemning homosexual orientation or behavior.
Christian Abuse
Trying to Change Natural Sexual Orientation WSJ Article
A gay man is agonizing over his inability to overcome his so called "homosexual sin". He cries saying he has begged God to free him by surrounding himself with Christians and spending time in a in-patient treatments program but nothing has worked. The Christians suggest its a matter of choice and controlling the flesh, or maybe he is demonic possession. "I just want God to accept me," he finally says.
Many mental-health professionals and former members of "change" groups warn that almost nobody's sexual orientation truly changes and that the road from homosexuality to attempted heterosexuality is littered with failure and suffering. Instead of God's love they find self-hate, failed attempted "normal" marriages, and suicide after they become so distraught over not being able to "cure" themselves. The change movement is destroying peoples lives trying to make homosexuals become something they aren't.
The articles tells of many who have tried to live a lie as to their true sexual orientation and failed. "I think it's the greatest abuse of psychiatry in America today," says Dr Isay, who is a Cornell Medical College professor and chairman of the American Psychiatric Association's gay, lesbian and bisexual issues committee. "The attempt to change is extremely harmful." he says.
Changing Homosexuality - Atlantic Monthly March 1993
After many terrible attempts at "curing" homosexuals Kinsey showed homosexuality to be surprisingly common across lines of family, class and education. Kinsey for many years tried to find patients who had been converted by therapy and was surprised they could not find one whose sexual orientation had been changed. When they interviewed persons who claimed they have been changed they found that all were simply suppressing homosexual behavior...and they used homosexual fantasies to maintain potency when they attempted intercourse. One man claimed that, although he had once actively homosexual, he had now "cut out all of that and don't even think of men - except when I masturbate."
In 1956 in Chicago a psychologist Evelyn Hooker was puzzled about her training of gayness as a emotional problem when she had a gay friend who seemed quite healthy and well adjusted. She received a grant from the Natl Inst of Health to study a group of gay men who had never had emotional therapy and a similar heterosexual control group. She was prepared to conclude the gay men were not as well adjusted as they appeared. Hooker did extensive psychological tests on both groups in a blind study and gave the unidentified results to three eminent psychologists. One, Bruno Klopfer was convinced he would find the gay men by the tests. As it turned out, none of the three could tell from all the tests which were gay. They were indistinguishable, demonstrating an equal distribution of pathology and mental health. Her study was the first of many that followed which led to the ending of the APAs treating gayness as a disease in the 1970s.
The article discusses the brain studies including the critical statements of Anne Fausto a Brown University geneticist. The article was written before the latest gene marker finding which Ms Fausto has been quoted as being sound science. The articles discusses genital adrenal hyperplasia examining the effects of prenatal sex hormones and luteinizing-hormone feedback. Studies seem to support that this can cause especially lesbianism. The article is a comprehensive study of recognized scientific biological and psychological studies before the latest gene study which provides more confirming evidence. CONCLUSION - Five decades of psychiatric evidence demonstrates that homosexuality is immutable, and non pathological, and growing evidence is implicating biology as the primary cause of homosexuality. How can one justify discrimination against people on the basis of such a characteristic? Science can show the whys of homosexuality, but not answer the more important questions involving human rights, human freedom, human tolerance and love. It is such a pity that sincere homosexuals, many of them Christian have to go through the terrible pains of a society that still thinks homosexuality is more like Epilepsy which was regarded in Biblical times as demon possession - but not a disease, a natural orientation. Soon it will be clear homosexuality is a natural God given orientation that should be uplifted as Gods creation not judged based on scriptures falsely interpreted that have
absolutely nothing to do with condemning homosexual orientation or behavior.
Christian Abuse
Trying to Change Natural Sexual Orientation WSJ Article
A gay man is agonizing over his inability to overcome his so called "homosexual sin". He cries saying he has begged God to free him by surrounding himself with Christians and spending time in a in-patient treatments program but nothing has worked. The Christians suggest its a matter of choice and controlling the flesh, or maybe he is demonic possession. "I just want God to accept me," he finally says.
Many mental-health professionals and former members of "change" groups warn that almost nobody's sexual orientation truly changes and that the road from homosexuality to attempted heterosexuality is littered with failure and suffering. Instead of God's love they find self-hate, failed attempted "normal" marriages, and suicide after they become so distraught over not being able to "cure" themselves. The change movement is destroying peoples lives trying to make homosexuals become something they aren't.
The articles tells of many who have tried to live a lie as to their true sexual orientation and failed. "I think it's the greatest abuse of psychiatry in America today," says Dr Isay, who is a Cornell Medical College professor and chairman of the American Psychiatric Association's gay, lesbian and bisexual issues committee. "The attempt to change is extremely harmful." he says.
Esco! said:
I'm not reading it all and suspect there's a little something "gay" and "overcompensating" in a post that size. And its not just "post" envy speaking either.
Dave in Phoenix
Well-known member
If you don't have any interest in facts that don't speak about what you have no clue about. Some folks respect documented facts instead of cute one liners.
Back in the 90s I was active on the old Prodigy boards and was credited with helping prevent a couple gay youths from committing suicide by showing that God loves them just the way HE created them.
I am an extreme heterosexual, hardly like to hug men, but I get very upset especially when biblically ignorant Christians attack gays for being who they are.
Before I take a stand on an issue I reserach it. I was taught in my conservative traditional Christian days what a terrible sin homosexuality, sex out side of marriage etc was.
So decades ago I decided to reserach both sides of these issues. After a few years I had to admit I had been wrong in my tradational beliefs which are lies and distortions. That is why I am outspoken about these views mainly on libchrist.com
I take life and death matters seriously not gliblly and historically gay youth have a very high suicide rate than other groups because of the false teachings and their inablity to change no matter how hard they may want to to conform with what society whats them to be.
Back in the 90s I was active on the old Prodigy boards and was credited with helping prevent a couple gay youths from committing suicide by showing that God loves them just the way HE created them.
I am an extreme heterosexual, hardly like to hug men, but I get very upset especially when biblically ignorant Christians attack gays for being who they are.
Before I take a stand on an issue I reserach it. I was taught in my conservative traditional Christian days what a terrible sin homosexuality, sex out side of marriage etc was.
So decades ago I decided to reserach both sides of these issues. After a few years I had to admit I had been wrong in my tradational beliefs which are lies and distortions. That is why I am outspoken about these views mainly on libchrist.com
I take life and death matters seriously not gliblly and historically gay youth have a very high suicide rate than other groups because of the false teachings and their inablity to change no matter how hard they may want to to conform with what society whats them to be.
Your exhaustive efforts in attempting to make a point is noteworthy, Mr. Dave in Phoenix. However, I would point out that studies on animals in captivity very seldom reveals true natural behaviour. Publications that attempt to show that Homosexuality is a natural occurrence are as flawed as their anthropomorphic authors. One could just as easily compile a list of publications on UFO's; Bigfoot; Loch Ness Monster's; Elvis sightings and Alien abductions. Sincerely, Jon .
I appreciate Dave's detailed answer, but it's not only bigoted christians that discriminate against gays. Most religions have looked down on homosexuality.
Let's try to have an educated debate without making discriminatory comments against other groups. As for the high suicide rate; there's lots of groups with higher than average rates of suicide. For example; teens, aboriginals, Japanese, alcoholics, straights tired of gay pride(I'm guessing on this one)etc.
Also appreciate that Dave saved the 2 teens. it's nice to see people that have changed their opinion. It's shows that people can be open-minded. I'll admit that when I was younger I was afraid of gay people. I now respect them for who they are. My diference is with changing the definition of marriage.
x
x
Let's try to have an educated debate without making discriminatory comments against other groups. As for the high suicide rate; there's lots of groups with higher than average rates of suicide. For example; teens, aboriginals, Japanese, alcoholics, straights tired of gay pride(I'm guessing on this one)etc.
Also appreciate that Dave saved the 2 teens. it's nice to see people that have changed their opinion. It's shows that people can be open-minded. I'll admit that when I was younger I was afraid of gay people. I now respect them for who they are. My diference is with changing the definition of marriage.
x
x
What I find intriguing in these 'Social Issue' debates is the often times hostile and condescending tone of the individuals who support the Homosexual lifestyle and defend that point of view. Sincerely, Jon .
Dave in Phoenix
Well-known member
acutus said:
I have no idea what a homosexual lifestyle is. Being gay/straight/lesbian/bi is a natural sexual orientation. It is not a lifestyles as if someone would choose it.
I only used Christian examples since its usually Christians that are the ones spreading the lies both biblically and about somehow it being a lifestyle that one has a choice over.
On marriage - how does gays being married threaten marriage? I just bet gay marriages would last longer than straight with a 50% divorce rate.
I'm not really strong minded on if its called marriage or civil unions, clearly gay and lesbian couples should have the same legal rights that heteros have. Gays have been denied legally so many things which is why they have finially come out of the closet and are political active to demand the rights they should have just like straight couples.
The "Gay Agenda" is simply to be treated fairly and equally as the straight population.
Enough of this - I'm off to the terb party in Hamilton !
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