You can't blame him (or anyone) for not being able to unfurl your ever-twisting narratives.
Here is what peace loving Russian liberation looks like
- Thread starter SchlongConery
- Start date
To you? Not twisted at all.
But the contortions you go through to spin everything, including Putin's and the Kremln's official statements, to make it all NATO and USA's fault are twisted logically and on their face.
But there is no changing your opinion so it's not relevant.
*Shrug*
I have always maintained that NATO provocation was the reason for the war and that everything else amounted to either propaganda, domestic or otherwise or statements of convenience.
Now the Chief of The Wagner Mercenary Russian group that are vital to the Russian Invasion of Ukraine has publicly threatened to withdraw from Ukraine.
he is pissed off with the manner in which The Russians have conducted themselves in Ukraine.
Wagner chief says his forces are dying as Russia’s military leaders ‘sit like fat cats’
Standing in front of the bodies of dozens of what he claims are his fighters killed in Russia’s war with Ukraine, the head of the private military company Wagner unleashed an expletive-laden challenge to Russia’s military leadership, and later blamed defense chiefs for “tens of thousands” of Wagner casualties.
“We are lacking 70% of the needed ammunition!” Wagner chief Yevgeny Prigozhin says in a video posted Thursday on the Telegram messaging app.
Shining a small flashlight on the corpses laying outdoors near what appears to be the front lines of the war, Prigozhin claims they are the casualties of just one day of fighting.
“Shoigu, Gerasimov, where … is the ammunition?” says Prigozhin, calling out Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu and chief of the Russian armed forces Gen. Valery Gerasimov.
“The blood is still fresh,” he says, pointing to the bodies behind him. “They came here as volunteers and are dying so you can sit like fat cats in your luxury offices.”
In another video statement, released Friday on Telegram, Prigozhin said, “The dead and wounded – and that’s tens of thousands of men – lie on the conscience of those who did not give us ammunition, and this is Defense Minister Shoigu and this is Chief of the General Staff Gerasimov.
“For tens of thousands of those killed and wounded, they will bear responsibility before their mothers and children, and I will make sure of that,” he added.
In the same video message, Prigozhin praised the former Deputy Defense Minister Mikhail Mizintsev, who has recently joined the Wagner Group as its deputy commander.
Prigozhin, whose Wagner mercenary group has taken on a growing role in the Ukraine conflict as Russian forces falter, has been highly visible on the front lines in recent months – where he has claimed credit for territorial gains, particularly in the battles raging around the eastern Ukrainian city of Bakhmut.
Wagner fighters will ‘leave Bakhmut’ on May 10
Prigozhin’s call for more ammunition is not new, nor are his methods. He has repeatedly complained of receiving insufficient support from the Kremlin in the grueling fight for the eastern city.
In February, he made a similar appeal for ammunition, posting a picture on Telegram of a pile of corpses. Shortly after that posting, he made another saying a shipment of ammunition was on its way to the Wagner troops.
But the support does not seem to have lasted, at least to Prigozhin’s liking. Last weekend, he threatened to withdraw his troops from the city if Moscow didn’t provide more ammunition.
In a separate statement posted to Telegram on Friday, Prigozhin repeated the threat, saying his private military company would leave Bakhmut on May 10 due to a lack of ammunition.
“I declare on behalf of the Wagner fighters, on behalf of the Wagner command, that on May 10, 2023, we are obliged to transfer positions in the settlement of Bakhmut to units of the Defense Ministry and withdraw the remains of Wagner to logistics camps to lick our wounds,” Prigozhin said.
“I’m withdrawing Wagner PMC units because without ammunition, they are doomed to a senseless death,” said Prigozhin, adding that Wagner had fallen “out of favor with envious near-military bureaucrats.”
Signs of infighting in Moscow
Known for its disregard for the lives of its own soldiers, the Wagner group’s brutal and often lawless tactics are believed to have resulted in high numbers of casualties, as new recruits are sent into battle with little formal training – a process described by retired United States Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling as “like feeding meat to a meat grinder.”
'Feeding meat to a meat grinder': Analyst describes what new Russian soldiers are facing
01:57 - Source: CNN
But as Prigozhin’s stature has increased, so too have his clashes with Shoigu and Gerasimov, prompting speculation about possible elite infighting in Moscow as Russia’s military campaign fails to advance.
In February, he accused the two men of “treason” for their alleged failures to support and supply the Wagner group in Ukraine.
His newest challenge to Russian defense officials comes as Bakhmut remains heavily contested.
“These are someone’s f**king fathers and someone’s sons. And you f**kers who aren’t giving [us] ammunition, you b*tches, will have your guts eaten out in hell!” yelled Prigozhin in Thursday’s video.
he is pissed off with the manner in which The Russians have conducted themselves in Ukraine.
Wagner chief says his forces are dying as Russia’s military leaders ‘sit like fat cats’
Standing in front of the bodies of dozens of what he claims are his fighters killed in Russia’s war with Ukraine, the head of the private military company Wagner unleashed an expletive-laden challenge to Russia’s military leadership, and later blamed defense chiefs for “tens of thousands” of Wagner casualties.
“We are lacking 70% of the needed ammunition!” Wagner chief Yevgeny Prigozhin says in a video posted Thursday on the Telegram messaging app.
Shining a small flashlight on the corpses laying outdoors near what appears to be the front lines of the war, Prigozhin claims they are the casualties of just one day of fighting.
“Shoigu, Gerasimov, where … is the ammunition?” says Prigozhin, calling out Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu and chief of the Russian armed forces Gen. Valery Gerasimov.
“The blood is still fresh,” he says, pointing to the bodies behind him. “They came here as volunteers and are dying so you can sit like fat cats in your luxury offices.”
In another video statement, released Friday on Telegram, Prigozhin said, “The dead and wounded – and that’s tens of thousands of men – lie on the conscience of those who did not give us ammunition, and this is Defense Minister Shoigu and this is Chief of the General Staff Gerasimov.
“For tens of thousands of those killed and wounded, they will bear responsibility before their mothers and children, and I will make sure of that,” he added.
In the same video message, Prigozhin praised the former Deputy Defense Minister Mikhail Mizintsev, who has recently joined the Wagner Group as its deputy commander.
Prigozhin, whose Wagner mercenary group has taken on a growing role in the Ukraine conflict as Russian forces falter, has been highly visible on the front lines in recent months – where he has claimed credit for territorial gains, particularly in the battles raging around the eastern Ukrainian city of Bakhmut.
Wagner fighters will ‘leave Bakhmut’ on May 10
Prigozhin’s call for more ammunition is not new, nor are his methods. He has repeatedly complained of receiving insufficient support from the Kremlin in the grueling fight for the eastern city.
In February, he made a similar appeal for ammunition, posting a picture on Telegram of a pile of corpses. Shortly after that posting, he made another saying a shipment of ammunition was on its way to the Wagner troops.
But the support does not seem to have lasted, at least to Prigozhin’s liking. Last weekend, he threatened to withdraw his troops from the city if Moscow didn’t provide more ammunition.
In a separate statement posted to Telegram on Friday, Prigozhin repeated the threat, saying his private military company would leave Bakhmut on May 10 due to a lack of ammunition.
“I declare on behalf of the Wagner fighters, on behalf of the Wagner command, that on May 10, 2023, we are obliged to transfer positions in the settlement of Bakhmut to units of the Defense Ministry and withdraw the remains of Wagner to logistics camps to lick our wounds,” Prigozhin said.
“I’m withdrawing Wagner PMC units because without ammunition, they are doomed to a senseless death,” said Prigozhin, adding that Wagner had fallen “out of favor with envious near-military bureaucrats.”
Signs of infighting in Moscow
Known for its disregard for the lives of its own soldiers, the Wagner group’s brutal and often lawless tactics are believed to have resulted in high numbers of casualties, as new recruits are sent into battle with little formal training – a process described by retired United States Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling as “like feeding meat to a meat grinder.”
'Feeding meat to a meat grinder': Analyst describes what new Russian soldiers are facing
01:57 - Source: CNN
But as Prigozhin’s stature has increased, so too have his clashes with Shoigu and Gerasimov, prompting speculation about possible elite infighting in Moscow as Russia’s military campaign fails to advance.
In February, he accused the two men of “treason” for their alleged failures to support and supply the Wagner group in Ukraine.
His newest challenge to Russian defense officials comes as Bakhmut remains heavily contested.
“These are someone’s f**king fathers and someone’s sons. And you f**kers who aren’t giving [us] ammunition, you b*tches, will have your guts eaten out in hell!” yelled Prigozhin in Thursday’s video.
Then there is this:
(not sure how much is performative)
Everyone would if those are really the only 2 options and the details you included are correct. But there's very possibly a more options, or you're wrong about the details and option b actually costs more lives than a.
When Germany occupied the Sudetanland in 1938, in an effort to spare lives, a compromise was reached. There were no nukes yet, but certainly memories of the gas attacks were fresh in everyone's mind. How did the compromise work?
You're saying not compromising means more people will die than compromising will. But can you cite an occasion in history when that was true? Most historians agree that the attitude of appeasement in the lead up to WWII cost lives, that there was a chance to stop the German war machine before it was in full swing. So I can show where history says compromise cost more lives, and therefore there's a chance you're wrong in your assessment that compromise is the solution here. I'd love to see any example you can provide that shows the opposite.
Just look at the Anschluss. The German army was massed at the border, ready to go. Briefed and prepared for that new tactic: lightning war. The orders came in.... and everything stalled. The logistics was not prepared, the equipement was lacking, the troops lacking in training and supplies. But the West appeased and compromised. And then what happened? Germany had learned, and so the next time they employed their lightning war against Poland it went much better.
So what happens if you're wrong? We appease Russia, we compromise, and next time they launch a 3-Day Special Military Operation, they don't have logistics problems and get bogged down, their troops aren't fighting low morale, and their manufacturing has ramped up and improved.
So maybe you're right. Maybe option a leads to nuclear war. But if Putin is that crazy, then option b also likely leads to nuclear war. And if so, is it better to fight him now, when his logistics is a mess, when his forces are in disarray, when morale is low.... Or is it better to fight him later, after his fixed those problems?
Appeasement in the 30s lead to millions dead. Appeasement now might lead to billions dead. So maybe things aren't as cut and dry as you think. Maybe your black and white options are incomplete and it's not "A is B but B is amazing!" Maybe it's "A is horrible but B is the end of the world!"
Or perhaps option C is a long, drawn-out war of attrition in the mud that costs millions of lives but weakens the Russian war machine sufficiently that is rendered ineffective and Putin is forced to simply withdraw, or he dies and Russians elect a new government that pulls out, or some other outcome. Maybe we don't need to rush to A or B.
Or maybe A leads to the end of the world too. I'm not so naive that I think it's cut any dry. But it seems to me that B poses every bit as big a risk as A does, and none of us should be as certain as you seem to be that we've unlocked the ideal solution and the only reason the powers that be aren't listening is because they face nefarious ulterior motives.
I'm not sure why you keep adding hard line breaks to your text, but it makes it really hard to read. Are you using some garbage app that does that, or are you doing it manually?
@Valcazar you have a competitor
Sorry @DinkleMouse too long and verbose for me to read as I dont have the energy.
However, I owe you an apology about yesterday when I said you lied about having military experience. I was actually talking with Dutch Oven in mind for some reason as he posts right wing nonsense. I know, your username is right to the left. But for some reason I thought you were Dutch Oven
. So sorry about that. You do seem to know what you are talking about when it comes to the army etc., However, I dont believe you need any of that expertise to comment on what the US might do or how this proxy war will end -because these people with expertise are also the same ones who went looking for WMDs in Iraq, supported the Mujahideen in Afghanistan in the 80s etc., Plus you can always bank on the maliciousness of "US Interests" to speculate on what they may do next.Strange. It's no longer than your posts. You'll make posts that long but won't read them?@Valcazar you have a competitor
Sorry @DinkleMouse too long and verbose for me to read as I dont have the energy.
I wasn't kidding when I said I don't care. And I'm not saying that to sound aggressive, I mean you don't need to apologize because it doesn't bother me one way or the other. Unlike our friend and his Stolen Valour, I really don't have anything to prove, and no one should really care anyway.
I never said you did need experience. I explained in my reply that the reason I asked if you had experience was to gauge how much weight I personally wanted to give your opinion and whether to discuss with you (I'm paraphrasing). But since you got aggressive about it I also did some trolling. When people troll me, I troll back. I never said you were wrong, I never said you shouldn't or couldn't have an opinion, and I never said your opinion was invalid because you didn't have experience or expertise. I simply said I'd stick with my own and not follow up.
