Harassment - Was I Wrong?

[Mencken]

At some point she became uncomfortable with what was going on. Maybe at the start...maybe a bit later. The catalogue would certainly make many people very uncomfortable. And she has let you know that she is not comfortable. That is something someone else may have even suggested to her to do (such as the HR department/representative). It may be to put you on "notice" and if you really really watch what you are doing you may dodge the bullet. But it may be just a "Step 1" is laying an official complaint.

I would say you should avoid her at all costs...and somehow make it clear that you are very very sorry - but in some way that does not seem creepy or like a stalker or anything negative. And be very very sorry. It seems like you don't know why/when she began to be uncomfortable...but that is not necessary to know...what is real here, and what is all that matters is that you made her feel uncomfortable in some way related to "sexual harrassment". You admit yourself that you were starting to get feelings for her...and obviously she does not share those - at least does not any more if she ever did. So whether something changed, or you mis-read it from the start....none of that matters. What matters is she has let you know that she is not comfortable with it...and if you are very very very lucky you may keep your job.

 

[kurrupt]

That's really the heart of the problem . A woman gives you that sideways look , holds your gaze a little longer than normal , giggles like a school girl whenever you are around, and we start acting like fools . That's just the subtle flirts and I think that's where most of the problems are . Most of the time they are just playing and want to be reassured they are attractive . Men tend to see it as an invitation for more when that's not what the ladies are looking for . Its a very subtle dance frought with danger for men in the workplace as the OP has found out .

For the record if you are considering giving a woman in the workplace a gift of a dildo you might as well make it a strap on because you know where its going to end up (without lube) LOL .

Or maybe she's being friendly? Polite? Playful? Or maybe you think that smile is being held too long,.Maybe some weirdo creepy sociopaths see what they want to see? You know like those guys who think the pretty girls on TV are talking directly to them.

I have seen so many of these cases and in only about 1/50 the woman is being the aggressor and truly bringing to a level she shouldn't.

 

[a 1 player]

In my occupation these harassment allegations are something I have to personally deal with several times a year. I'm not going to bullshit and say that they have a happy ending, most of the time they do not, but it does not always end in termination of the employee either One of the difficult things in my job is investigating the harassment claims, removing the emotion from both sides and discovering the true facts. Like anything else in life, usually the truth is somewhere in the middle.

The most common complaints I have seen, (been doing this job for 15+ years), are lewd e-mails, sexist/racist jokes, teasing based on gender, and unwanted flirting. In all my years I have only had two complaints, one where there has been inappropriate touching and one being the request for sex to keep ones job.

The way it is usually solved is that I, and the (human rights advocate or woman's advocate **both are union stewards**) have both parties in the office at the same time once the investigation has concluded. The company policy is read to both parties, and they are made to sign an understanding of the document. In certain circumstances the offending party is kept for a few more minutes and REALLY raked over the coals and threatened with his/her job. This is one point both management and the union agree on, thank goodness. Only in the severest of cases is the employee terminated.

99% of the time the issue is resolved (with hard feelings), but both parties understand that flirting, joking, etc. though innocent at the time, can quickly produce some dire results.

This has worked well in the past for me, and will continue using this approach in the future.

 

[The Cunning Linguist]

In my mind, the key to when this crossed the line is the Victoria's Secret catalogue. Without this, it does become a he said/she said case. The OP said several years of this type of behaviour was accepted, and reciprocated. Obviously, she changed her mind, and the attention became unwanted. It's too bad she had to resort to a threat to go to HR, which does seem to be a 0-100 turnaround. Unless the OP missed some previous signal, it does seem like overkill.

The workplace has become such a minefield, and the pendulum has swung too far the other way IMO. Those who are watching the series Mad Men will see how shocking the way things used to be. Women worked in an office setting in order to meet men, and find husbands. When I went to University in the late 70's, we used to joke about some of our female classmates that "she's just here to get her MRS degree".

I had something similar happen to me at my workplace. A much younger (25 years) woman started in my department. We became friendly, as she was interesting (and it didn't hurt she was good looking), and we went out to lunch 3-4 times a week. She was married, new to this country, and she often confided in me(unasked) about some problems in her marriage, problems with co-workers, etc. I alway drove (she took transit). She also confided to me that she had a thing for older men, and her first sexual experience at 14 came with a 45 year old friend of the family. She told me she started it. I confided in her some personal stuff I shouldn't have.

Several months later I became a manager there (but did not supervise her directly). Then the flirting started. She started calling me at home, and emailing me at home at well. Things were not going well with her husband, and she confided she was thinking of leaving him. My personal relationship was also rocky, due to my partner's substance abuse, and I began to think that maybe there would be some future to this relationship outside our office.

Several more months of this type of behaviour passed. She then patched things up with her husband, and bought her own car. She became a citizen. Meanwhile, I had stepped down from my management role for personal reasons, but continued in my old job, since basically, they were fucked without me. The frequency of our lunches together reduced to once a week, and then stopped entirely.

I came to the conclusion I had been used by this woman. As she became more independent, and I became less use to her, her interest in me stopped.

We now confine our interaction to strictly business. And I think I am lucky that she did not(and has not yet) made any sort of complaint against me. It would be bogus, but in today's office climate, the innuendo would probably be enough to get me at least censured, or fired.

 

[King Midas]

How were you used? You were friends and enjoyed each other's company but you clearly evolved professionally and personally and so did she. Do you feel taken advantage of? Why - because you didn't fuck her?

 

[alexmst]

Here's one from my experience where the girls in the office decided to play a prank on a manager (just to prove that the girls at work had a sense of humour and weren't all stuck up).

This manager (we'll call him Rob). He was good looking in his early 30's back in the day. Anyway, Rob gets a new g/f (not from work) and is talking about how hot she is, how he is crazy about her, etc for a couple of weeks. So one day he tells all of us he is having lunch with his g/f tomorrow and then bringing her back to see his office after lunch for a minute as she wants to see where he works.

Next day while he is out at lunch the secretary girls go into his office in a planned raid and trash it, making it look like he just had sex with one or two of them in there. They brushed all his papers, pens, etc off his desk onto the floor, brought in a man's white shirt and kissed it so it had five or six lipstick kisses on it, brought in unrolled condoms and draped one half over the wastepaper basket, and another on the crapet and left the wrappers on the floor, put a bra hanging over his chair, panties half in an open drawer, put two glasses (one with lipstick on it) on his desk with a splash of booze in each, put a cig with lipstick on it in his desk ashtray (yeah, you could smoke at work back then) and I think they said that they sprayed the shirt with Oscar de la Renta too.

So he comes back with his g/f, shows her the hall, watercooler, meeting rooms, and then opens the door to his office and they walk in. He is speechless. The g/f takes a look around and finally says "You've been busy I see" and turns around and walks down the hall. He goes after her saying "I didn't do it...guys, tell her I didn't do it!" But everybody is playing the straightman and saying "didn't the janitorial staff clean that up yet Rob?. Then when she gets to the elevator the whole floor cracks up laughing and his g/f stops and gets that it is a practical joke and laughs too and all is well.

Today such a stunt would probably get somebody in hot water for sexual harassment (esp. if they worked for Kurrupt lol, although maybe he only has it in for the guys and would let the ladies have some fun). Work isn't always about professionalism - it has a human side too...people need to live a little. Remember the recent film version of the Broadway musical "The Producers"? When the accountant goes back to his office and the boss has the drones in rows of identical desks stamping paperwork and yelling at them if they express any personality? Haha - Kurrupt, your office environment you describe made me think of that. Personally I am glad I don't work for you and think you need to lighten up a bit. I'm sure you're glad I don't work for you too ha ha. According to you every guy in your office who sprays breath freshner in his throat and wants to ask a new girl out needs to be hauled off to jail and fired. I'm not trying to bust your balls here, and maybe you run a tight ship and are proud of your department's productivity, but you seem a little too serious and uptight to me (since I also work in the financial world). Do any of your male staff actually like you or want to spend time with you outside of the office? Just wondering.

 

[fuji]

One of the key points was the thought that she could turn at any time. I don't believe there is a time limit as to how long she can wait before she throws you under the bus.

This is why an apology is needed, a formal one, in writing (e.g. an email, and save a copy personally). I think essentially that would reset the clock. Of course she could still file a complaint but with a record of the apology and NO further harrasing behavior after that I think the OHRC (the easiest place for her to file) would see it as a situation that has been resolved already.

It might or might not be a good idea to copy HR on the apology as others have suggested; but then again if she were that pissed off she would already have gone to management.

 

[fuji]

If she participated then there is no apology required.

First, there is a real possibility that she participated out of fear. Maybe he has seniority over her.

Second, even if you are right in some moral sense, you are painfully naive as to how bad this can get for him in a legal sense, and very quickly.

The apology is not for her benefit, it is for his own self preservation in the event this ever goes any further.

 

[Aardvark154]

This is why an apology is needed, a formal one, in writing (e.g. an email, and save a copy personally). I think essentially that would reset the clock. . .

I had not considered it in this light. . .

 

[alexmst]

Quote:
Originally Posted by fuji
This is why an apology is needed, a formal one, in writing (e.g. an email, and save a copy personally). I think essentially that would reset the clock. . .

But then he is admitting in writing that he did it, and that he knows it was wrong. Seems like a bad idea to me. Remember that piece I posted a few days ago about the German guy who sent the e-mail telling the girl he "was sorry for causing her the trouble" after he killed her b/f over an online arguement? He had gotten away with it, but his e-mail was promptly forwarded to the police by the dead guy's g/f, who then arrested the German guy. Never admit wrongdoing in writing.

If he wants to verbally apologize, he can. Persoanlly I do not think he should, but should rather just do his job and not socialize with the woman anymore. Don't descriminate against her at work, but don't socialize with her either. Avoid any personal contact. It will probably blow over. If it doesn't, better she not have an e-mail from you apologizing for all the wrongs you've done her.

 

[Hard Idle]

A pain-in-the-ass (actually more like tight-assed) male co-worker knew what I was doing and warned me I was skirting with a sexual harassment charge.

When other people start to be aware of it, thats a pretty good indication it's going too far - unless a) the two of you are known to be a couple, or b) she openly does the exact same things with everyone in the office.

If i have to see her, treat her as any other coworker!!!

Good advice. I'd go further, treating her the same as an outside client, extremely formal and professional. I'd also avoid ever working alone with her.

Tell me, how could I read her so badly!!! And can we still be friends??

NO you can't be friends as long as you work together. Not unless she provides you a written statement acknowleging her previous flirting and explaing the reason for her change of temperament - after it's sworn in and publically Notarized, with a copy going to your HR department.

This woman either
a) is a Martian
b) is a basketcase who was trying to set you up for a harassment threat
c) was so convinced you were 100% Gay that she could have fondled your exposed penis without provoking you to take it anywhere sexually with her.

 

[a 1 player]

If he does decide to apologize (which I think would be a good idea), the message has to be very specific yet vague to keep him out of the hot seat. Please think carefully and choose your words accordingly before hitting the send button. DO NOT ADMIT GUILT.

Ms. XXX

It has come to my attention that there is some concern that I may have acted in a manner that was perhaps not in the best interest of either the staff or the company which I represent. If this is indeed the case, it was certainly not intentional. I have since read the company policy regarding business relationships, and will adhere to them by the letter as they were written for all of our best interests, and will ensure my staff does the same. If I have caused either yourself or any other member of the team any discomfort, I offer my sincere apologies. I look forward to a long lasting business relationship and prosperity for all involved.

Kindest regards,

Mr. ZZZ

 

[fuji]

DO NOT ADMIT GUILT.

I agree with that. As few words as possible, maybe even just something as short and sweet as:

"Dear XXX, I apologize for any offense I may have given, as until you spoke to me I was unaware of your discomfort. Please rest assured that I will treat you in a strictly professional and courteous manner."

Do not mention any specifics.

 

[Mr.who]

The man had the hots for a woman. The woman participated in a flirting program that lasted months if not years. She accepted the underwear catalogue for a spell and then turned off the situation. The dynamic changed and she informed her courter. The courter needs to be given the opportunity to stop before he is brandished a stalker. We are not little children in a sandbox, we are adults who seek romance and erotic fulfillment in many scenerios including the workplace. Noone, including women wants to be prevented from acting as an independant grown up. A woman learns by a certain age that men will pursue her and she has to learn how to deal with that. She is fortunate if she is so pretty. A man has to pursue, or he ends up like me, with his hand in a hooker rut. We need to leave the textbook and ugly labels for men such as "harasser" and "sexual assailant" for real criminals. Women need to grow up and take responsibility for themselves. Daddy is not watching over their shoulders anymore and they are sexually mature adults.

 

[smylee52]

First, there is a real possibility that she participated out of fear. Maybe he has seniority over her.

Second, even if you are right in some moral sense, you are painfully naive as to how bad this can get for him in a legal sense, and very quickly.

The apology is not for her benefit, it is for his own self preservation in the event this ever goes any further.

There is no mention of fear or him having seniority over her so you might want to check your imagination and stick to what's presented .

You know nothing of my level of involvement with these types of cases but let me say if anyone is naive here its you with the advice you are giving with the apology , and a written one to boot .

Unless a formal complaint is made there is no self preservation required . Should he write a formal apology it will not be a shield but a club used to beat him with .

If he actually harassed the young lady then I would be the first to chastise him . What he's presented is office flirting that went to far and she said stop . Sounds like he has stopped . No need for a federal case .

 

[train]

There is no mention of fear or him having seniority over her so you might want to check your imagination and stick to what's presented .

You know nothing of my level of involvement with these types of cases but let me say if anyone is naive here its you with the advice you are giving with the apology , and a written one to boot .

Unless a formal complaint is made there is no self preservation required . Should he write a formal apology it will not be a shield but a club used to beat him with .
If he actually harassed the young lady then I would be the first to chastise him . What he's presented is office flirting that went to far and she said stop . Sounds like he has stopped . No need for a federal case .

Have to agree with you here. If he's not in a position of authority over her, stopped immediately when she asked and was not physical, threatening or vulgar I don't see the problem.

 

[Rylan]

Sounds to me that the women enjoyed the attention being given to her and then changed her mind as many women do. Which is why you don't take chances with women in the work place. They change their mind and you are the one fired.

This is a good lesson for everyone in the future.

 

[fuji]

with no objection from her, sent it on to her!!

It's worth repeating that there is a big gap between "no objection" and "happy". If the women perceived getting along with "the boys" to be key to her success in the company she may have suffered all sorts of things she disliked so as not to piss off "the boys", of which totti was one.

We only have his (and your) version of events, unless you also have heard the woman's version, I bet her version told to her friends is quite different.

At any rate the right action is being taken--he needs to stay away, and keep the "lust in his heart" to himself.

 

[fuji]

with no objection from her, sent it on to her!!

It's worth repeating that there is a big gap between "no objection" and "happy". If the women perceived getting along with "the boys" to be key to her success in the company she may have suffered all sorts of things she disliked so as not to piss off "the boys", of which totti was one.

We only have his (and your) version of events, unless you also have heard the woman's version, I bet her version told to her friends is quite different. Smylee upthread wrote there is "no evidence" of pressure on her, but given Totti's poor judgement so far I imagine it's very possible she does feel a lot of pressure but Totti is ignorant of her feeling.

At any rate the right action is being taken--he needs to stay away, and keep the "lust in his heart" to himself.

 

[Rylan]

It's worth repeating .....

Guess that is why you felt the need to double post - LOL