Harassment - Was I Wrong?

Ever see those 1950/60's's movies where guys at work hit on any single woman and noboby does anything becasue it is just expected behaviour? I wish I had worked in that time ha ha. When I saw the movie "Anchorman:Ron Burgundy" I was laughing so hard I fell of my chair...though I don't remeber it being that easy going in the 70's.

My policy now is no overt flirting with the girls at work. I used to when I was in my 20's, but got slightly toasted doing so and decided not to anymore. Of course every company I've worked at had co-workers sleeping together (yes, the whole office does know). The problem is when you like the girl and she doesn't want anything to do with you...

See in the outside world of nigtclubs she could shoot you down with a one liner and be gone, but at work you two have to be in close quarters all day...and if you're superior to her in title/rank, most likely she won't tell you to buzz off. This is what happened to me once many years ago (before things were quite like they are now). She smiled and I took it as encouragement, when really it was just that she was too spineless to tell me to buzz off.

In my case she went to my male boss and complained that I was sexually harrassing her. So he called me in and told me what she said, and asked if I had repeatedly asked her out on a date, stared at her breasts in meetings, etc. Now this boss and I were tight - we drank together after work at the bar and he was a pal. I said "H-ll yes, sure I did that - she's hot and she never told me to GFM or anything". So he called her back in and told me later he said to her "Suzzy, why wouldn't he want to ask you out - you're hot - you should be flattered. If he stares at your tits it's probably because you leave so many buttons on your blouse undone - FFS I stare at your tits too, only I'm engaged or I'd have asked you out myself. Every guy in the office probably wants to do you. If you don't want to go out with him tell him so. If he gets fresh, kick him in the nuts - that will get the message through loud and clear and I gurantee he'll stop asking. Now stop wasting my time with this junior high s--t. I'll tell him you don't want to go out with him, but the next guy who starts in with you I expect you to deal with yourself".

So then over a scotch at the bar he tells me she is a pain in the ass and I wouldn't want to go out with her anyway - I could do better. So I never talked to her again and avoided her at work after that. She trasfered to another group a few months later. Funny thing is, another guy who hit on her at work she DID have an affair with (and he was married). So I guess it was just a question of whine for protection if a guy you don't fancy hits on you, but play the available femme fatal seductress if you do fancy him sexually. I heard later that the guy left his wife and had shacked up with her. And yes, I'm still pals with my old boss - he was a great boss to have! I wish I had him as a boss today.

But yes, today in business at my age I wouldn't ever try to hit on the girls. If they like you, let them make the first move. Office flirting is looked on as sexual harrassment these days and most managers just fire the offending party as it is the route of least hassle for them. There is a double standard though - hot girls can flirt and come on to guys at work because guys just do them and don't complain to anyone. Now I saw a case in my current workplace of a young 20's guy at work flirting with an obviously uninterested hot chick just a few months ago (2008 Toronto)...I felt like saying "Hey buddy, she's not into you...its all over her face" to help him out, but then of course I'd be 'tight-assed guy' lol.

The VS subscription was kind of strange - not sure why you'd have wanted to do that...doesn't seem to be the most productive approach to winning her heart.

So to sum up, IMO these days flirting with the girls in the support staff at work usually gets you fired. Not a good idea.
 
Don't fish off the company pier.
 
Start looking for a new job NOW. And take something appropriate if it comes up, the sooner the better.

She can turn on you at anytime, and you have already told someone else that thought you were a brain dead idiot, so it if very likely that others in the work place know. It is only a matter of time before you get your ass hauled in.

Get out while you can before you get fired or someone gets to say "great worker, but women complained about sexual harassment" as your reference call.
 
I'm torn between telling you to eithr put your resume on Workopolis OR arrang a meeting with an HR rep present and make a profuse, on the record, apology.

You really put yourself in a bad position.
 
2 cents

I think it is a lot of crap. I don't think you harassed her. She led you on and then changed her mind, exploiting her fragile position as a "woman in the workplace." As our gender-egalitarian society matures, less sensitivity will be required of us towards the daintier sex and women will take responsibility for themselves. Office or workplace drama, detracting from the work at hand over some hysterical bird won't be tolerated.
 
midniteflite said:
While much of the counsel here is sage....there is also an implicit aspect of SH related to reporting relationships in the office. In a non-reporting scenario things are a little different. This is why I banged a long succession of hotties on my desk @ work in an otherwise SUPER conservative corporate environment. They didn't report to me or anyone in my portfolio...and I didn't subscribe catalogues to them...
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Yes, I agree. My experience has shown that if the attraction is mutual, the office girls will bang the guy and not report it. I've heard of this happening a lot over the years at work (not with me, but with others I knew). The problem arises when the guy has the hots for the girl and she doesn't want to do the guy, and he can't read the situation.
 
agree with Fiji. A brief succinct apology will hopefly put an end to this. Harassment is all In the eye of the beholder and the beholder is pretty much always the girl. If you are going to engage in this kind of flirti g you must be absolutely sure that the feeling is mutual and be discreet at work for gods sake. Hope that this blows over and that she will take your change to professional behaviour as a sing of good faith. Good luk and now conduct yourself at work with eyes wide open to uses situations.
 
Buddy, look at it positively, fait interviened so that you could dodge this phyco bullet. As for myself, working in an environment with 85% women. several of them have told me who to stay away from.

Stay Away, Far Away !!!!!
 
fuji said:
"If you have ANY further communication with this woman it should be short, polite, and to the point, something like:

"Dear X. Please accept my apologies, it looks like my misreading of the situation has resulted in an unpleasant work life for you. I am mortified. Rest assured that all my future dealings with you will be strictly professional and courteous."

And that's it. Stay away from her after that unless your job requires it.

Do not even ask if you can still be friends: If she wants to have any releationship with you beyond a strictly professional one she will let you know. If she doesn't let you know, the answer is no she does not want to be your friend.
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Tottirules, I don’t think there has been a single piece of bad advice thus far. Start repairing your life right now, do not try to be her friend - stay the hell away from her, and communicate only as polite business associates do.

It might not go very far in a hearing, but before you at least could say that she'd never said anything to you. Now she has and the stakes are up in the "whale" category. Don't be rude but "hello" or "it certainly is a nice day" really are just about as far as you should go and that not every day.

Also I know it's human nature to say I'm sorry. But I'd give some calm thought to communicating with her outside business even to say that.
 
Listen to your Terb brothers....

Friend....take a look at this thread for a good perspective on your situation.

https://terb.cc/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=93123

I went thru a similar situation with a hot # at a previous job and was lucky to escape her trap. She was playing games with me. I friend of mine directed me to a facebook group she was on were I found some very nasty shit she was saying behind me back. Thank god I found out......could have been very ugly.
 
Mr.who said:
I think it is a lot of crap. I don't think you harassed her. She led you on and then changed her mind, exploiting her fragile position as a "woman in the workplace." As our gender-egalitarian society matures, less sensitivity will be required of us towards the daintier sex and women will take responsibility for themselves. Office or workplace drama, detracting from the work at hand over some hysterical bird won't be tolerated.
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Facts:
Innuendos
Teasing
Victoria Secret Catalogue

No matter how one slices the cake, whether he was led on or not, this is textbook harassment.
 
Aardvark154 said:
Also I know it's human nature to say I'm sorry. But I'd give some calm thought to communicating with her outside business even to say that.
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Yes, I agree. I wouldn't bring the matter up with her. She doesn't want to be your friend. Do not say sorry, just stop talking to her other than in an official work capacity.
 
alexmst said:
Yes, I agree. I wouldn't bring the matter up with her. She doesn't want to be your friend. Do not say sorry, just stop talking to her other than in an official work capacity.
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I would have to disagree, I think it depends on the situation and if I were Totti I'd ask Mr. Tight Ass for a bit of advice. Fact is we don't know how far the situation has gone nor do we know the girl involved. The story is relayed to us by Totti and as with all situations there are two sides of it and hers is likely to portray the harrassment as worse than his perception of it.

At the least Totti you crossed a workplace line by flirting with her, you failed to notice what to most people here were obvious signs your advances were unwelcome (eg. cancelling the catalogue) and did not heed the advice of your coworker (Mr. Tight Ass). If Mr. Tight Ass is aware of it already how many others at your work are?
If you suddenly cut off communication with her do you believe you will be able to effectively judge what the limits are? If you suddenly start treating her differently by avoiding her is it possible that you will take it too far and thus be guilty of discriminating against her after she made a complaint? Will she percieve your change in behaviour as anger that she complained? Will others perceive it that way? It's a very fine line and if the situation isn't openly discussed you might find the cues are very subtle and have difficulty managing it by yourself.

It might be best to take Fuji's advice and make a formal apology and encourage an open door policy. Let her know that you are truly sorry and that you did not mean to make her feel uncomfortable. Let her know that if your behaviour should make her feel that way again you would appreciate knowing (and listen to her) and if she is uncomfortable talking to you about it then you would encourage her to speak to a third party. Doing this should show her that you are in fact listening and trying to do the right thing and it will also demonstrate that to your employer. Be sure to have someone witness your doing so as well, don't open yourself up to a he said/she said situation.

If Mr. Tight Ass recommends you don't say anything though you might want to listen to him. He's the only one that has seen the situation and is aware of her feelings. He did try to look out for you and seeking his help will demonstrate to him that you did not mean for this to happen and that you are genuinely concerned about the outcome.

Also I'd start looking for a new job, you don't want this on your record. Very few employers are going to hire a guy that gave female coworkers sexually suggestive material even if it is a shopping catalogue.
 
The problem is men can get really stupid when it comes to women. Look at how many guys on TERB fall in love with ladies in the industry. Shit, I'm surprised this shit doesn't happen to more guys who are on TERB. But many of the responses on here gives me a bit of hope.

Why didn't you just send her a black dildo? Why go half assed?
 
As stated there is a lot of good advice here. The ground rules have changed - it's much easier to file a complaint and things that you'd think were relatively innocent can easily be taken wrong. Human Rights is a HUGE pain in the ass and it's both costly & time consuming (as well as a career killer). One of the key points was the thought that she could turn at any time. I don't believe there is a time limit as to how long she can wait before she throws you under the bus.
 
tottirules said:
Over the past few years a female coworker and I have exchanged smiles, teasing, very light sexual innuendos to the the point I was beginning to have a "thing" for her. Last year, I even arranged to have regular copies of Victoria's Secrets catalogue sent to her at work.

That led to more joking, teasing. A pain-in-the-ass (actually more like tight-assed) male co-worker knew what I was doing and warned me I was skirting with a sexual harassment charge.

Did not think much of it until she called me last week and asked me to stop the innuendos and word play since it was making her uncomfortable. (The catalogue mailings were cancelled at her request a month or so ago.) She added if I didn't stop, she'd report me to her manager.

Now I'm shattered. I thought we had a pretty good friendship and now this!! Tight-ass said I'm lucky she didn't report me now and I still have my job. He's suggested I stay out of her way. If i have to see her, treat her as any other coworker!!!

Tell me, how could I read her so badly!!! And can we still be friends??:confused:

Totti!!
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People re read the opening post and stop trying to get this guy to shoot himself in the foot . They played the flirting game for SEVERAL YEARS . If she participated then there is no apology required . He sent her catalogues that she accepted for a period of time . No apology required . She said stop the catalogues and he did . She said she doesn't want to play anymore and I believe he is complying . Most people want this type of problem to go away quickly but some of you are suggesting to make a federal case out of it . Write an apology, go to HR , find a new job . Get a grip . If he walks away this disappears .

How much of your own prejudices are coming into play here . Most of you have him throwing himself on his sword . Why ? Any half attractive male working around women knows if there's 20 woman in your office more than one will be a flirt . Yes it is dumb for a man to fall for that shit because it will bite him on the ass if she decides it's gone further than she intended . I by no means intend to absolve the creep who preys on women in the workplace but the OP doesn't sound like that type of guy .

With internet access at work I get jokes from woman I work with of a sexual nature all the time . I never send them any because I know what the risk is . Now the OP knows what the risk is . If he insists on trying to pursue a relationship when told to back off then he deserves what he gets . If he walks away now the story ends without all the drama some people are pushing him towards .

From what he has told us the last thing he needs to do is apologize .
 
Smiley,

I hear ya. But sometimes we see things that just aren't there. Like I said, look at how many guys fall for SP's or MPA's? "She rubs my cock, she must have a thing for me". I wasn't there so I'm not sure how she really felt. Did she just tolerate it until it got out of hand, or was she into it until someone else found it. Either Way, the dildo would have made a better gift he would have known how she felt right there! Even it was pink.
 
Women's logic is an oxymoron.

It's only sexual harrassment if the attention is unwanted. If she likes the guy, he can get away with murder. She will love all the sexual attention. If she doesn't like the guy, then he's toast if he so much as looks at her the wrong way.

Basically, her feelings for you changed somewhere along the line and the attention she once enjoyed is now harrassment.
 
Back Burner said:
Smiley,

I hear ya. But sometimes we see things that just aren't there. Like I said, look at how many guys fall for SP's or MPA's? "She rubs my cock, she must have a thing for me". I wasn't there so I'm not sure how she really felt. Did she just tolerate it until it got out of hand, or was she into it until someone else found it. Either Way, the dildo would have made a better gift he would have known how she felt right there! Even it was pink.
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That's really the heart of the problem . A woman gives you that sideways look , holds your gaze a little longer than normal , giggles like a school girl whenever you are around, and we start acting like fools . That's just the subtle flirts and I think that's where most of the problems are . Most of the time they are just playing and want to be reassured they are attractive . Men tend to see it as an invitation for more when that's not what the ladies are looking for . Its a very subtle dance frought with danger for men in the workplace as the OP has found out .

For the record if you are considering giving a woman in the workplace a gift of a dildo you might as well make it a strap on because you know where its going to end up (without lube) LOL .
 
Listen, you guys who are defending this dude either work in a strip joint or in a nightclub.

Women want to go to work and go home to their social life loved ones. Just like I do. Just like you do.

Imagine gong to work every day and some 300 lbs. , toothless creepy lady sends you garbage and tries to "flirt" with you. Day in. Day out. How would you feel?

As I said HE says they were flirting. I doubt she sees it that way.

And if Mr. "tightass" noticed this crap then how bad was it? I guess the OP thinks Mr. "tightass" is jealous or a prude. Or maybe he can be a gentleman with honor and respect and sees what this poor lady has to put up with.

As a manager of a major stock brokerage we have a lot of hot shots like this who think they are "cute" and "flirting" with the ladies. 9/10 times the ladies HATE it . One of their problems is they are too polite and let it go on too long. I wish they would report it ASAP. None like it or find it flattering. Many find it terrifying and it causes great anxiety at a place you should feel safe and secure.

What's flirting to Joe Jigglo is actually disgusting to others. Some guys are like hungry dogs when a fine looking employee comes in. You can already see the losers and fiends licking their lips and practicing their best pick up lines. I fire them and tell them they are lucky she's not involving the police.

Work is work. Act like a professional or fuck off and go home. If a male employee sent one of my females a catalog of this nature I would strongly suggest she seek police help. Not only is that creepy it's so damn unprofessional I don't even know what this guy was thinking.
 
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