Hamilton

[TESLAMotors]

So over the weekend, we get charged up and go for a road trip to visit a couple of friends in Hamilton.

I couldn't believe how bad the road conditions are over there. I'm not old enough to remember it as a thriving steel town as my father put it, but damn, they sure packed up and left town real quick.
Roads are bumpy and full of potholes. A lot of the homes are older obviously from the early 30s, possibly older, but some people clearly take great pride and take care of them.
Other homes, people just clearly don't care to care for them at all. It's quite sad to see what was once such a thriving city, just falling apart.
I hope the new stadium and outdoor plazas/malls will help invigorate it somehow.

 

[nobody123]

So over the weekend, we get charged up and go for a road trip to visit a couple of friends in Hamilton.

I couldn't believe how bad the road conditions are over there. I'm not old enough to remember it as a thriving steel town as my father put it, but damn, they sure packed up and left town real quick.
Roads are bumpy and full of potholes. A lot of the homes are older obviously from the early 30s, possibly older, but some people clearly take great pride and take care of them.
Other homes, people just clearly don't care to care for them at all. It's quite sad to see what was once such a thriving city, just falling apart.
I hope the new stadium and outdoor plazas/malls will help invigorate it somehow.

Stadiums and malls don't ever do shit for a city. Jobs and a decent infrastructure do. At any rate, if you wanna really get depressed go visit Oshawa (God knows why anyone would want to, though). The decline is more recent, and even more noticeable.

 

[anon1]

You are just hanging out in the wrong parts of the Hammer. The mountain is thriving especially south of the link.
Hamilton has one of the fastest rising property values in Ontario. People are escaping Tdot prices and going to the Exurbs.
I work with several guys who has seen their house increase 50% in the last 5 years.
But I agree that the downtown basin is a wasteland.

 

[james t kirk]

First off, what is wrong with older houses? My house was built in 1920 and I live around High Park in Toronto. I would sooner eat glass than live in a new house in some soul crushing banal suburb of the 905 wasteland irrespective of how many cars I could fit in the garage bolted onto the front of the house.

Now with that said, I was born and raised in Hamilton and have lived the last 20 years in Toronto so I have a unique perspective on what you speak. (and I was raised to despise all things Toronto as well.)

Hamilton was once a manufacturing power centre. We made things. Value added things. There was Stelco and Dofasco and Westinghouse and Proctor and Gamble and Firestone and American Can and National Steel Car and a host of others. They are all pretty much gone now save Dofasco which is now Arcelor Mittal.

Hamilton is a metaphor for what truly concerns me about the Canadian economy. Those value added industries have been sacrificed and allowed to die because that was the path of least resistance. Hamilton is a victim of globalisation and free trade and multi-national corporate rationalization (read buying the competition and then shutting them down as in the case of Alcan, or Stelco, or a host of others.) Don't think it can happen in Toronto? Guess again. Toronto is not an island. It's just bigger and has more inertia, but it can happen here too. When I was growing up in the Hammer, we used to call Toronto "Hogtown". Not because of hogs, or anything cute, but because Toronto "hogged" all the government money and opportunity to itself. (Not saying that that is true, but that is what was said.) The problem now is that Ontario is dying just like Hamilton is dying (witness the debt of the provincial government in denial). Those industries in Hamilton and Oshawa and all over Ontario that are drying up and blowing away in the wind used to feed the provincial coffers in Toronto which in turn paid all the government workers (read teachers, doctors, nurses et al) in Toronto and the rest of the province. What is going to happen now with the cumulative affect of all those industries shutting down?

Anyway, as much as I love Toronto now and living here still get a little irked at the Toronto arrogance that I do come across. Toronto is not Canada. It's not even close. You want to see Canada, drive from Toronto Winnipeg to Calgary. Canada is a massive sparsely populated country with a hostile climate and a few cities scattered across a country that is bigger than most continents. Toronto is the exception, not the rule.

Hamilton has a lot of very good neighbourhoods. There's Westdale, the area around McMaster, Gage Park, Lock Street, etc. There are some really great homes to be had at about half or less than the comparable home in Toronto. You just have to know the place.

 

[Big Sleazy]

I agree. The non stop globalization of work has created an economy that no longer produces anything. Having interest rates near zero may help the housing market and construction but eventually people are going to need work. Real work. I don't consider Banking and Insurance real work. Sitting around pushing cocktail napkins back and forth to each other and sucking a commission out of it is what Toronto has become. This country needs an enema. Real work with real wages. Not some parasitical Banking and Hedge fund industry that loads up the board of Directors and asset strips the Corporations and sells it off to China. We are building our own Third World right before our eyes. A country and Province with some uber rich and the rest poor.

BS

 

[SchlongConery]

Agreed Big Sleazy. But what would you propose?

 

[TESLAMotors]

First off, what is wrong with older houses? My house was built in 1920 and I live around High Park in Toronto. I would sooner eat glass than live in a new house in some soul crushing banal suburb of the 905 wasteland irrespective of how many cars I could fit in the garage bolted onto the front of the house.

Now with that said, I was born and raised in Hamilton and have lived the last 20 years in Toronto so I have a unique perspective on what you speak. (and I was raised to despise all things Toronto as well.)

Hamilton was once a manufacturing power centre. We made things. Value added things. There was Stelco and Dofasco and Westinghouse and Proctor and Gamble and Firestone and American Can and National Steel Car and a host of others. They are all pretty much gone now save Dofasco which is now Arcelor Mittal.

Hamilton is a metaphor for what truly concerns me about the Canadian economy. Those value added industries have been sacrificed and allowed to die because that was the path of least resistance. Hamilton is a victim of globalisation and free trade and multi-national corporate rationalization (read buying the competition and then shutting them down as in the case of Alcan, or Stelco, or a host of others.) Don't think it can happen in Toronto? Guess again. Toronto is not an island. It's just bigger and has more inertia, but it can happen here too. When I was growing up in the Hammer, we used to call Toronto "Hogtown". Not because of hogs, or anything cute, but because Toronto "hogged" all the government money and opportunity to itself. (Not saying that that is true, but that is what was said.) The problem now is that Ontario is dying just like Hamilton is dying (witness the debt of the provincial government in denial). Those industries in Hamilton and Oshawa and all over Ontario that are drying up and blowing away in the wind used to feed the provincial coffers in Toronto which in turn paid all the government workers (read teachers, doctors, nurses et al) in Toronto and the rest of the province. What is going to happen now with the cumulative affect of all those industries shutting down?

Anyway, as much as I love Toronto now and living here still get a little irked at the Toronto arrogance that I do come across. Toronto is not Canada. It's not even close. You want to see Canada, drive from Toronto Winnipeg to Calgary. Canada is a massive sparsely populated country with a hostile climate and a few cities scattered across a country that is bigger than most continents. Toronto is the exception, not the rule.

Hamilton has a lot of very good neighbourhoods. There's Westdale, the area around McMaster, Gage Park, Lock Street, etc. There are some really great homes to be had at about half or less than the comparable home in Toronto. You just have to know the place.

Actually I agree with you 110%,I love older style homes compared to the glass/drywall nouveau garbage they have today.
It's just sad to see them falling apart and a good portion of people don't care for them as others do.

 

[grizzy]

If it's such a shitty city why does your friends live there?
Every fukin city has potholes. Maybe you can't see past your nose. Get outside more.

 

[frankcastle]

It sounds like you are judging Hamilton based on the Barton street area. That is like characterizing toronto using Jarvis and Gerard.

 

[anon1]

50% huh? From $100,000 to $150,000 no doubt.

from $200,000 to over $300,000

 

[onthebottom]

I agree. The non stop globalization of work has created an economy that no longer produces anything. Having interest rates near zero may help the housing market and construction but eventually people are going to need work. Real work. I don't consider Banking and Insurance real work. Sitting around pushing cocktail napkins back and forth to each other and sucking a commission out of it is what Toronto has become. This country needs an enema. Real work with real wages. Not some parasitical Banking and Hedge fund industry that loads up the board of Directors and asset strips the Corporations and sells it off to China. We are building our own Third World right before our eyes. A country and Province with some uber rich and the rest poor.

BS

All rich economies are mostly services driven - making stuff (especial easy stuff to make) has limited value and can be done by almost anyone. The key is to make IP.

Banking is just a derivative of the underlying economy.

 

[Frankfooter]

I have friends moving out to Hamilton.
Cheaper housing and the GO train commute that can be shorter then some drives make it a reasonable option.

Its picking up a bit more lately.

 

[james t kirk]

No doubt failing to account for maintenance and repair costs.

Meanwhile a $1,000,000 house in Toronto is now worth $1,300,000.

Hamilton has no future. It's a zombie town. Might as well move to Buffalo. Cheaper housing, cheaper beer, better wings and at least they have professional sports teams.

And Toronto has the Leafs and the Blue Jays.

 

[james t kirk]

All rich economies are mostly services driven - making stuff (especial easy stuff to make) has limited value and can be done by almost anyone. The key is to make IP.

Banking is just a derivative of the underlying economy.

Manufacturing is a value added industry. Witness Germany, the United States, Japan, China

There is little value added in a service industry.

It's a race to the bottom in Canada (less so in the USA I will admit.) There is no future digging shit out of the ground and selling a bulk commodity.

 

[Jennifer_]

I have friends moving out to Hamilton.
Cheaper housing and the GO train commute that can be shorter then some drives make it a reasonable option.

Its picking up a bit more lately.

I grew up in Hamiltin- my parents' neighbourhood is gorgeous and much much more-affordable than Toronto.

Just like Toronto, there are nice and not-so-nice neighbourhoods.

I commuted from "da Hanmer", (well I owned a home in Ancaster), while I worked at HFH and resented when people made fun of me for living there.

I love Toronto and don't want to leave but I have been considering following several of my friends' lead and move back once it's time to start a family.

 

[james t kirk]

Agreed Big Sleazy. But what would you propose?

1. We need to encourage education in high tech trades and engineering.

2. Look at how they do things in Germany and France. Germany is an economic and manufacturing powerhouse and their education system is completely different than ours. One of my best friends is a High School teacher and she tells me that all the kids in her HS (York Region) all want "to go to University" and they all think that they should become doctors, and lawyers and dentists because anything else is meaningless. (Good luck with that.) I say France because believe it or not, they are one of the most productive nations on earth. Both France and Germany have higher average wages than Canada, but they are more productive than Canada.

3. Encourage research and development in Canada. Without it, we're doomed.

4. Invest in Colleges and Universities but only in programs that lead to real careers - Medicine, science, engineering, commerce, nursing, etc. Liberal arts are all well and good but there is a very limited future.

5. Invest in improving our cities and their public infrastructure. Montreal, Vancouver, Toronto, Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa all need to improve their public transit after decades of neglect. There is little if any future in remote rural locations.

6. Encourage Canadian start ups and offer more tax incentives to foreign companies to locate here.

7. Encourage free enterprise, not government jobs.

8. Subsidize electricity. Believe it or not, cheap power really helped attract manufacturing at one time to Ontario. Electricity rates in Ontario have sky rocketed and investment has run away.

9. Attract skilled immigrants from Europe and close the door to the unskilled uneducated and never will be anything but unskilled and uneducated and unmotivated immigrants.

10. Get rid of Stephen Harper and his band of Reform Party blowhards.

 

[John Henry]

Hamilton is, and will always be, a massive shit hole. No jobs, no growth, scorched earth, poverty and crime.

50% huh? From $100,000 to $150,000 no doubt.

No doubt failing to account for maintenance and repair costs.

Meanwhile a $1,000,000 house in Toronto is now worth $1,300,000.

Hamilton has no future. It's a zombie town. Might as well move to Buffalo. Cheaper housing, cheaper beer, better wings and at least they have professional sports teams.

Seriously , you are one stupid fuk . You know nothing about Hamilton . Like other people have said , don't just look at Barton Street . The highways are packed with commuters going home after work . Where do they live ??? Hamilton you Idiot . Housing prices are a lot cheaper . I have many neighbours that have moved to Hamilton in order to buy a nice home .

This is why people outside of To hate To . It's because of Idiots like you and your stupid ignorant remarks .

You must be a multi millionaire with all of the money you have made buying and selling all of your homes . Wonder why your on this board paying for a piece when someone as rich and smart as you would think that the ladies would be banging on your Castle door . Yea right . :eyebrows:

By the way , your name represents a shitty beer . Might as well be drinking pony piss. I have to say it does a good job of representing you . Molson Canadian = pony piss .

 

[John Henry]

9. Attract skilled immigrants from Europe and close the door to the unskilled uneducated and never will be anything but unskilled and uneducated and unmotivated immigrants. .

Well not really , it's these kind of people that will do the jobs that the so called well educated people will not do . For example there're people working in the orchards and vineyards in Niagara getting the plants ready for spring . These jobs have to be done in order for the fruit to grow . It's these people who also pick the fruit and work the farms so the well educated have food to eat . To me these people are just as important as any person with an MBA behind their name .

Not too long ago some States made it a Law that migrants had to show papers that they were legal in the US when asked by the local LE . Guess what , the farmers crops sat rotting in the fields that year because the poorly educated people left those States . Sure as heck we didn't see any Harvard graduates running to pick the fruits and veggies . Just because you don't have an education makes a person unimportant . Thousands of people with a good education are lazy bastards and think that the world owes them .

10. Get rid of Stephen Harper and his band of Reform Party blowhards.

I like Harper . He got rid of the Long Gun Registry .

 

[icespot]

1. We need to encourage education in high tech trades and engineering.

2. Look at how they do things in Germany and France. Germany is an economic and manufacturing powerhouse and their education system is completely different than ours. One of my best friends is a High School teacher and she tells me that all the kids in her HS (York Region) all want "to go to University" and they all think that they should become doctors, and lawyers and dentists because anything else is meaningless. (Good luck with that.) I say France because believe it or not, they are one of the most productive nations on earth. Both France and Germany have higher average wages than Canada, but they are more productive than Canada.

3. Encourage research and development in Canada. Without it, we're doomed.

4. Invest in Colleges and Universities but only in programs that lead to real careers - Medicine, science, engineering, commerce, nursing, etc. Liberal arts are all well and good but there is a very limited future.

5. Invest in improving our cities and their public infrastructure. Montreal, Vancouver, Toronto, Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa all need to improve their public transit after decades of neglect. There is little if any future in remote rural locations.

6. Encourage Canadian start ups and offer more tax incentives to foreign companies to locate here.

7. Encourage free enterprise, not government jobs.

8. Subsidize electricity. Believe it or not, cheap power really helped attract manufacturing at one time to Ontario. Electricity rates in Ontario have sky rocketed and investment has run away.

9. Attract skilled immigrants from Europe and close the door to the unskilled uneducated and never will be anything but unskilled and uneducated and unmotivated immigrants.

10. Get rid of Stephen Harper and his band of Reform Party blowhards.

What are you stuck in the industrial revolution and lacking any creativity to develop a new solution, a new way of life. Why only immigrants from Europe? Do you believe immigrants from other countries don't have the work ethic of Europeans? Maybe the parents don't have the skill, but what about the kids once they have an education.

We need to lead and become more creative by spending more on the arts and creative programs in school, but don't take it from me.

 

[james t kirk]

What are you stuck in the industrial revolution and lacking any creativity to develop a new solution, a new way of life. Why only immigrants from Europe? Do you believe immigrants from other countries don't have the work ethic of Europeans? Maybe the parents don't have the skill, but what about the kids once they have an education.

We need to lead and become more creative by spending more on the arts and creative programs in school, but don't take it from me.

Yeah, I'm stuck on value added industry and skilled immigration that's correct. Arts programs are all well and good but frankly we already have far too many teachers and lawyers already and most arts grads end up in very low paying low skill jobs. Sure, there's exceptions, but very few. The truth sucks, but I don't make the rules.

I look at things very pragmatically. See what works well elsewhere in the world and emulate those aspects that work well. And speaking of that, I was told, and I don't know if it is true, but in Germany the education system is geared towards encouraging youth to go into programs where they have a skill AND where there is opportunity. For example, if there are already too many teachers, the numbers of students accepted into teachers college are reduced. Students who want to be teachers are encouraged to consider a vocation that is in demand.

The new world order you are dreaming about won't pay the taxes required in order to fund the system we already have in place, let alone going forward. Just check out the deficit and debt that Ontario has. It's not sustainable and it's not going to be pretty. An arts grad working at Starbucks making 10 bucks an hour is not paying the same taxes as a high skill tradesman making 120 grand a year.