Hamilton restaurant's use of Confederate battle flag call for trouble, profs say

[canada-man]

TORONTO - A Hamilton restaurateur’s use of the Confederate battle flag on the sign for his Southern barbecue diner is a call for trouble, according to a Kingston-based American history professor.

James Carson, chair of the history department at Queen’s University, said the owner of Hillbilly Heaven is glossing over the racist overtones of the flag and its links to slavery.

The owner, Cameron Bailey, has told Sun News Network that he thinks the flag is akin to the ’80s TV show The Dukes of Hazzard in its representation of the U.S. South.

“What is more iconic than the Confederate flag, the Dukes of Hazzard, the General Lee ... Everyone knows what it is. The connotation’s debatable.”

But Carson, who’s from the U.S., said that the flag immediately evokes powerful images of racism and slavery associated with the American Civil War.

“When he says he’s trying to conjure up the Good Ol’boys of the Dukes of Hazzard, he’s wilfully ignoring the vast story that accompanies that flag.”

Carson, who hails from North Carolina, grew up in a time when the flag was used by the Ku Klux Klan to fight the civil rights movement.

“In the U.S., I would find it offensive. In Canada, I just find it ignorant.”

York University history professor Marc Egnal added the flag is sure to offend African-American patrons.

“No one, including that diner owner, can be naive about what the flag means,” he said. “Symbols have a context.”

Jeremi Suri, a history professor at the University of Texas in Austin, said use of the flag in such a way would even cross the line in the southern United States, where Confederate Civil War heroes commonly have schools named after them.

“It’s too risky for marketing,” he said. “It’s seen, even for those that believe it’s an emblem of regional pride, as something that is not about consumption. I think they would say it cheapens it to do that.”

American history professor Craig Simpson, of the University of Western Ontario, said there are many ways to sustain southern culture without using the battle flag.

“It’s perfectly consistent with southern culture to observe aspects of it, country music, NASCAR, barbecue dinners, without displaying the Confederate battle flag,” he said. “A lot of people do that ... the reason is, most reasonably informed people associate that flag with slavery and racism.”

About the flag:



The rectangular flag was first used as a battle flag for the Army of Tennessee in 1863.
Western history professor Craig Simpson said the 11 stars on the flag represent the breakaway states. Four slave states — Delaware, Missouri, Kentucky and Maryland — are excluded.
In 1956, the Georgia state legislature re-created their state flag to included the Confederate battle flag. Simpson said it was meant as a political gesture at the time, protesting the civil rights movement.

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/03/0...derate-battle-flag-call-for-trouble-profs-say

 

[Aardvark154]

It sounds to me like Professor Carson has more than a touch of "Southern Guilt Syndrome."

How does the CSA Battle Flag have any more "racist overtones" than the first, second and third national flags of the Confederate States of America?

Now I would object to it's use in a restaurant in Hamilton, but that is more about the misuse of a flag under which brave men died (including Black volunteers) than it does getting into a tizz about it being some sort of verboten symbol.

 

[wangbang]

The guy who owns this restaurant is a piece of work. He has been in the news for many things over time.

 

[james t kirk]

The guy who owns this restaurant is a piece of work. He has been in the news for many things over time.

It would seem that he got what he wanted - free publicity.

I can only hope that the good people of my hometown (Hamilton) reject this buffoon of a restaurant owner by simply not purchasing from his establishment.

 

[wangbang]

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/660388--hillbilly-heaven-signs-funny-or-off-base

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/864618--lazy-job-seekers-need-not-apply

 

[needinit]

About every six months or so this guy gets himself into the paper for something 'Southern' with racist undertones/implications - free publicity and probably then draws a certain crowd to his 'restaurant' - a pretty dingy take-out place from what I have seen from the outside.

 

[Bobzilla]

Although I don't agree with this business owner, people need to realize that the South was not just about slavery. The main beef that the South had with the North was that they wanted to decide their own affairs by state rather than having Washington dictate to them what they could & couldn't do. In fact, Robert E. Lee, the man arguably more indentifiable with the South than the CSA President Jefferson Davis, was remarkably anti-slavery.

The assassination of Lincoln who got the Emancipation Proclamation passed led to the identification of the Civil War as a war on slavery. In reality, blacks were not treated much better in the North.

 

[james t kirk]

Although I don't agree with this business owner, people need to realize that the South was not just about slavery. The main beef that the South had with the North was that they wanted to decide their own affairs by state rather than having Washington dictate to them what they could & couldn't do. In fact, Robert E. Lee, the man arguably more indentifiable with the South than the CSA President Jefferson Davis, was remarkably anti-slavery.

The assassination of Lincoln who got the Emancipation Proclamation passed led to the identification of the Civil War as a war on slavery. In reality, blacks were not treated much better in the North.

But they were free. I don't think any of us can fathom what it was to be a slave other than it meant to live one's life in fear.

Lincoln got the 13'th ammendment passed which outlawed slavery forever in the United States. The Emancipation Proclamation was not passed, it was proclaimed by Lincoln under his power as Commander in Chief in a time of war. (There was a lot of cont**********sy about that at the time.)

The American Civil War was all about slavery. The north wanted to limit its expansion by outlawing it in the new states. The south wanted slavery expanded because they figured (rightly) that if slavery was not allowed in the newly created states that it would not be long before the abolitionists turned their attention to the old south where slavery was a way of life.

Southerners like to comfort themselves by denying that the Civil War was about slavery by saying that it was about "states rights" and bullshit like that, however, it was all about slavery.

The man himself said, "One section of our country believes slavery is right and ought to be extended, while the other believes it is wrong and ought not to be extended. This is the only substantial dispute." (Abraham Lincoln in his 1861 Inaugural speech)

http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres31.html

 

[mandrill]

What James T Kirk said. The whole attempt by Southern commentators to whitewash the Civil War by claiming it was about self-defence and "state's rights" is pathetic and dishonest. States' Rights? Sure thing! The rights of Alabama and Georgia to pass laws maintaining slavery and all its supporting legislative apparatus.

And Aardy, blacks volunteering to fight for the South?!! Really! This is raised by Southern writers from time to time to prove what a great place for Blacks the South was - when they weren't being raped, whipped, lynched or worked to death, I suppose. But the "evidence" is highly dubious - if indeed it exists at all.

OTOH, 178,000 Blacks fought for the Union and there are hard written records of this.

 

[Petzel]

I've spent considerable time in the past in the deep south and I can tell you that while the laws may have changed, you can't change the way people think.

 

[Aardvark154]

And Aardy, blacks volunteering to fight for the South?!! Really!

OTOH, 178,000 Blacks fought for the Union and there are hard written records of this.

You are absolutely correct that far more Blacks fought in the Union Army (after 1863) than in the CSA. But there are indeed written records of this CSA service.

Then again I've never said that life was pleasant for the vast, vast majority of slaves.

 

[Bobzilla]

But they were free. I don't think any of us can fathom what it was to be a slave other than it meant to live one's life in fear.

Lincoln got the 13'th ammendment passed which outlawed slavery forever in the United States. The Emancipation Proclamation was not passed, it was proclaimed by Lincoln under his power as Commander in Chief in a time of war. (There was a lot of cont**********sy about that at the time.)

The American Civil War was all about slavery. The north wanted to limit its expansion by outlawing it in the new states. The south wanted slavery expanded because they figured (rightly) that if slavery was not allowed in the newly created states that it would not be long before the abolitionists turned their attention to the old south where slavery was a way of life.

Southerners like to comfort themselves by denying that the Civil War was about slavery by saying that it was about "states rights" and bullshit like that, however, it was all about slavery.

The man himself said, "One section of our country believes slavery is right and ought to be extended, while the other believes it is wrong and ought not to be extended. This is the only substantial dispute." (Abraham Lincoln in his 1861 Inaugural speech)

http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres31.html

They most certainly were not free as we know freedom. They were treated as less than second class citizens even up to the 1970s, and I'm sure it still probably happens today in some parts of the US. In fact, one of the northern states was a slave state. (I think Maryland)

However, having said that states' rights was a major part of why the South wanted to secede, it's unquestionably true that some of them certainly wanted the right to keep slavery as an institution. The point I was trying to make is that the Confederate flag was not all the South stood for. To be fair, the flag of Brazil should be considered a symbol of slavery more than the CSA flag, since Brazil was by far the worst perpetuator of that institution.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/23/brazil-struggle-ethnic-racial-identity

Oagre: I'm curious. Do you consider George Washington & Thomas Jefferson "pathetic & dishonest" as well? They both kept slaves. In fact, it's disturbing that half of the presidents on Mount Rushmore kept slaves & that they're revered by US citizens, isn't it?

I also don't think you should be so simplistic to say that the Civil War was all about slavery rather than states' rights when the two sides almost came to blows earlier in the 19th century over an issue of Northern intrusion.

http://www.netplaces.com/american-civil-war/causes-of-the-civil-war/expansion-and-states-rights.htm

An example of how strongly the Southern states felt about Northern intrusion can be found in South Carolina's 1832 suspension of a heavy 1828 tariff placed on imports at the insistence of Northern merchants. When a South Carolina state convention issued an ordinance nullifying the tariff, it brought the nation to the brink of war. President Andrew Jackson threatened to send federal troops to the port of Charleston to enforce the tariff, and the governor of South Carolina threatened to meet them with an armed militia. War was only averted with the Compromise Tariff of 1833, which gradually reduced tariffs until 1842. As a result, the South Carolina convention voted to repeal the Ordinance of Nullification, ending the crisis.

 

[Plan B]

Doesn't look too bad..I would try the food...with an antacid though

 

[Aardvark154]

In fact, one of the northern states was a slave state. (I think Maryland)

Actually four: Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky and Missouri. By the way the Emancipation Proclamation had no effect in them.

 

[PussyHunter]

About every six months or so this guy gets himself into the paper for something 'Southern' with racist undertones/implications - free publicity and probably then draws a certain crowd to his 'restaurant' - a pretty dingy take-out place from what I have seen from the outside.

His Upper James location had a Restaurant Makeover done on it. The crowd he draws seem to be a lot of Mohawk College students.

The food is good though. Everyone has a choice to eat there or not. We do live in a country where we have the option to make our own choices.

People need to get a bit thicker skin and spend more time on things that make a difference, like poverty and hunger.

 

[james t kirk]

Getting told to "get a thicker skin" gets a little old sometimes.

Sometimes idiots need to just give it a rest I'd say (the owner of the restaurant in this case.)

But as you said, everyone has a choice whether to eat there or not. I would hope that people would choose to say, "I don't agree with your posting of a racist symbol and therefore, I won't spend my money at your restaurant". That said, I'm sure that there are lots of idiots who will eat there just because they deep down agree with this red neck.

 

[wigglee]

His Upper James location had a Restaurant Makeover done on it. The crowd he draws seem to be a lot of Mohawk College students.

The food is good though. Everyone has a choice to eat there or not. We do live in a country where we have the option to make our own choices.

People need to get a bit thicker skin and spend more time on things that make a difference, like poverty and hunger.

yea...skinheads, neo-naziis and white supremicists need to eat too!

 

[IM469]

It sounds to me like Professor Carson has more than a touch of "Southern Guilt Syndrome.".

Looks like he is familiar with the topic: Education

Ph.D., University of Kentucky, 1996
M.A., Tulane University, 1992
B.A., University of North Carolina, 1990

I was curious if Professor Carson a background that made him more sensitive to the confederate flag than I am. He is white but educated in the south so it could be the flag was used as calling card for hillbilly bigots. I do not associate the flag with slavery but instead the group of southern states that once embraced the flag over the starts and stripes.

Shame on me but I cannot think of a single article that can be placed on a sign or display that represents this southern group of states with their own particular culture, food and charms. Upon entering an eatery with this motif - I would not be expecting to find European or traditional northern cuisine on the menu. I certainly would not be entering there expecting to buy a slave.

 

[Aardvark154]

Looks like he is familiar with the topic: Education

Ph.D., University of Kentucky, 1996
M.A., Tulane University, 1992
B.A., University of North Carolina, 1990

I was curious if Professor Carson a background that made him more sensitive to the confederate flag than I am. He is white but educated in the south

Yes?


As I wrote it sounds like a touch of "Southern Guilt Syndrome." I certainly don't hear him saying although I'm proud to be a member of The Order of the Stars and Bars, or a member of Sons of Confederate Veterans, some people misuse the flag Confederate Veterans fought and died under, and that is a disgrace!

 

[mandrill]

Free Blacks owning Black slaves and fighting for the CSA.

http://www.theroot.com/views/did-black-people-own-slaves?wpisrc=root_lightbox