GM bankruptcy seen as all but inevitable
- Thread starter onthebottom
- Start date
At this point, the Auto Workers are damned if they do and damned if they don't. The people who run the CAW have to play hardball because they know their members will not accept such severe wage cuts.FAST said:
The CAW members will not accept such severe wage cuts, and I can understand why they think that way. For years, they have called the Auto Manufacturers bluff and received concessions.
Who the hell is going to agree to accept $16/hour when they are making over $30/hour.
What they refuse to comprehend is that they are in the perfect storm. Give them a few months of job searching in the real world.
Ford will be at the barganing table with the CAW for the nexrt contract with a great big "LETS DO A PATTERN CONTRACT". They will expect and will get a deal similar to the other two.
Ford started getting therir house in order 5 or 6 years ago and are prettyu much done. The will get something from the govt probably a tax holiay or expansion funds at a very favorable rate . The publicity is worth more than a lot of people think, just ait for the adds that say, Buy a Ford the govt does not need to cover our warrantees.
GM haas massive investments in China and South America thats where the markets are , the problem is going to show up when they try to import those cheap chinese made cars. The CAW will go apeshit and the govt will take notice. Lord help you can't get childrens toys from china without major problems how are they going to work cars?>
Ford started getting therir house in order 5 or 6 years ago and are prettyu much done. The will get something from the govt probably a tax holiay or expansion funds at a very favorable rate . The publicity is worth more than a lot of people think, just ait for the adds that say, Buy a Ford the govt does not need to cover our warrantees.
GM haas massive investments in China and South America thats where the markets are , the problem is going to show up when they try to import those cheap chinese made cars. The CAW will go apeshit and the govt will take notice. Lord help you can't get childrens toys from china without major problems how are they going to work cars?>
It is once again ironic that President Obama wants to favor the UAW/CAW who together with management have driven the company into the ground, while stockholders who for years have been attempting to force changes in GM, are going to be left up you know what creek.
Now, before anyone says so - that indeed is the capitalist system. But it is not the capitalist system to prevent the standard legal rules of bankruptcy from operating.
Now, before anyone says so - that indeed is the capitalist system. But it is not the capitalist system to prevent the standard legal rules of bankruptcy from operating.
Socialist
Don't get me wrong, Bush's bunch were a bunch of fricken idiots.
But, you either have a free market system or a comminist system, not both at the same time.
There is only one or the other, you can't be a little bit pregnant.
Glad I could help, FAST
Obama's party (Clinton) caused the whole financial mess in the first place, by giving morgages to people who qualified by checking "do not have a job" in the application forms.Aardvark154 said:
Don't get me wrong, Bush's bunch were a bunch of fricken idiots.
But, you either have a free market system or a comminist system, not both at the same time.
There is only one or the other, you can't be a little bit pregnant.
Glad I could help, FAST
The Race To The Bottom
This is the real story.....
The gutting of America for greed.....
They're Shutting Detroit Down
Featuring Mickey Rourke and Kris Kristofferson
A touching tribute to all the good honest working people around the world that have suffered so much
I hope this video will reach the whole world for all our workers
This is the real story.....
The gutting of America for greed.....
They're Shutting Detroit Down
Featuring Mickey Rourke and Kris Kristofferson
A touching tribute to all the good honest working people around the world that have suffered so much
I hope this video will reach the whole world for all our workers
You're the guy buying knock off cheap imported computers when you could get a quality Apple machine for just a little moreWoodPeckr said:This is the real story.....
The gutting of America for greed.....
They're Shutting Detroit Down
Featuring Mickey Rourke and Kris Kristofferson
A touching tribute to all the good honest working people around the world that have suffered so much
I hope this video will reach the whole world for all our workers
OTB
WoodPeckr said:This is the real story.....
The gutting of America for greed.....
They're Shutting Detroit Down
Featuring Mickey Rourke and Kris Kristofferson
A touching tribute to all the good honest working people around the world that have suffered so much
I hope this video will reach the whole world for all our workers
What a pile of shit!
Wall street did not destroy Detroit.
They had nothing to do with
a) ridiculous labor costs
b) poor management decisions
Now before you reply with your standard response that the banisters choked off the credit & dried up sales, think a bit.
If a company relies on extending credit to people who can not afford credit, then that company will have to pay the piper some day & its business model was unsustainable.
Just because a pair of washed up celebrities write a song does not make it true.
LOL!onthebottom said:
All computers and parts are made offshore.
Apple costs double or triple what a PC cost and I have NO quality issues with PCs.
How is does that cost only a little more?...
Another casualty of greed
As we move towards a Depression....
Jim Sinclair’s Commentary
Green shoots(signs of recovery) are shot and over for the next seven months of down leg. The point here is what do you think 2000 dealerships devolving into nothingness means in an economy? The 2000 dealerships does not include all that Ford is doing likewise without media coverage.
OTC derivatives are at fault for this and nothing else. What would have been a mild four year recession is now a multi decade disaster.
The OTC derivative dealers have all been bailed out and are as rich as cream, safe in their Greenwich, CT mansions. The OTC derivative manufacturers and distributors have become billionaires while this poor guy and a multitude like him are going straight down the drain. Take this story and times it by 2000, then think of the additional fallout the domino effect has in each town and village. Car dealerships are not small potatoes.
Housing and Autos were the drivers of the big boom of the 2000s. They are both the victims of OTC derivatives and now the downward spiral drivers of a disaster yet to be admitted to as the cause is still out there flourishing.
Nothing at all has been done to help this fellow and therefore nothing has been done to help the economy outside of more fancy paper shuffling of the Wall Street ilk mucking up everything it touches as usual.
God help us all.
Letter from a Dodge dealer
May 19, 2009
letter to the editor
My name is George C. Joseph. I am the sole owner of Sunshine Dodge-Isuzu, a family owned and operated business in Melbourne, Florida. My family bought and paid for this automobile franchise 35 years ago in 1974. I am the second generation to manage this business.
We currently employ 50+ people and before the economic slowdown we employed over 70 local people. We are active in the community and the local chamber of commerce. We deal with several dozen local vendors on a day to day basis and many more during a month. All depend on our business for part of their livelihood. We are financially strong with great respect in the market place and community. We have strong local presence and stability.
I work every day the store is open, nine to ten hours a day. I know most of our customers and all our employees. Sunshine Dodge is my life.
On Thursday, May 14, 2009 I was notified that my Dodge franchise, that we purchased, will be taken away from my family on June 9, 2009 without compensation and given to another dealer at no cost to them. My new vehicle inventory consists of 125 vehicles with a financed balance of 3 million dollars. This inventory becomes impossible to sell with no factory incentives beyond June 9, 2009. Without the Dodge franchise we can no longer sell a new Dodge as "new," nor will we be able to do any warranty service work. Additionally, my Dodge parts inventory, (approximately $300,000.) is virtually worthless without the ability to perform warranty service. There is no offer from Chrysler to buy back the vehicles or parts inventory.
Our facility was recently totally renovated at Chrysler’s insistence, incurring a multi-million dollar debt in the form of a mortgage at Sun Trust Bank.
HOW IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA CAN THIS HAPPEN?
THIS IS A PRIVATE BUSINESS NOT A GOVERNMENT ENTITY
This is beyond imagination! My business is being stolen from me through NO FAULT OF OUR OWN. We did NOTHING wrong.
This atrocity will most likely force my family into bankruptcy. This will also cause our 50+ employees to be unemployed. How will they provide for their families? This is a total economic disaster.
HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN IN A FREE MARKET ECONOMY IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA?
I beseech your help, and look forward to your reply. Thank you.
Sincerely,
George C. Joseph
President & Owner
Sunshine Dodge-Isuzu
As we move towards a Depression....
Jim Sinclair’s Commentary
Green shoots(signs of recovery) are shot and over for the next seven months of down leg. The point here is what do you think 2000 dealerships devolving into nothingness means in an economy? The 2000 dealerships does not include all that Ford is doing likewise without media coverage.
OTC derivatives are at fault for this and nothing else. What would have been a mild four year recession is now a multi decade disaster.
The OTC derivative dealers have all been bailed out and are as rich as cream, safe in their Greenwich, CT mansions. The OTC derivative manufacturers and distributors have become billionaires while this poor guy and a multitude like him are going straight down the drain. Take this story and times it by 2000, then think of the additional fallout the domino effect has in each town and village. Car dealerships are not small potatoes.
Housing and Autos were the drivers of the big boom of the 2000s. They are both the victims of OTC derivatives and now the downward spiral drivers of a disaster yet to be admitted to as the cause is still out there flourishing.
Nothing at all has been done to help this fellow and therefore nothing has been done to help the economy outside of more fancy paper shuffling of the Wall Street ilk mucking up everything it touches as usual.
God help us all.
Letter from a Dodge dealer
May 19, 2009
letter to the editor
My name is George C. Joseph. I am the sole owner of Sunshine Dodge-Isuzu, a family owned and operated business in Melbourne, Florida. My family bought and paid for this automobile franchise 35 years ago in 1974. I am the second generation to manage this business.
We currently employ 50+ people and before the economic slowdown we employed over 70 local people. We are active in the community and the local chamber of commerce. We deal with several dozen local vendors on a day to day basis and many more during a month. All depend on our business for part of their livelihood. We are financially strong with great respect in the market place and community. We have strong local presence and stability.
I work every day the store is open, nine to ten hours a day. I know most of our customers and all our employees. Sunshine Dodge is my life.
On Thursday, May 14, 2009 I was notified that my Dodge franchise, that we purchased, will be taken away from my family on June 9, 2009 without compensation and given to another dealer at no cost to them. My new vehicle inventory consists of 125 vehicles with a financed balance of 3 million dollars. This inventory becomes impossible to sell with no factory incentives beyond June 9, 2009. Without the Dodge franchise we can no longer sell a new Dodge as "new," nor will we be able to do any warranty service work. Additionally, my Dodge parts inventory, (approximately $300,000.) is virtually worthless without the ability to perform warranty service. There is no offer from Chrysler to buy back the vehicles or parts inventory.
Our facility was recently totally renovated at Chrysler’s insistence, incurring a multi-million dollar debt in the form of a mortgage at Sun Trust Bank.
HOW IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA CAN THIS HAPPEN?
THIS IS A PRIVATE BUSINESS NOT A GOVERNMENT ENTITY
This is beyond imagination! My business is being stolen from me through NO FAULT OF OUR OWN. We did NOTHING wrong.
This atrocity will most likely force my family into bankruptcy. This will also cause our 50+ employees to be unemployed. How will they provide for their families? This is a total economic disaster.
HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN IN A FREE MARKET ECONOMY IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA?
I beseech your help, and look forward to your reply. Thank you.
Sincerely,
George C. Joseph
President & Owner
Sunshine Dodge-Isuzu
May have been debated to death, but you're still misrepresenting it John. Read what you quoted from slowandeasy again (and those [Quote brackets are still giving you trouble, aren't they?). He's clearly talking about workers receiving wages which top out about $30. That'd be Apples.JohnLarue said:
What GM pays out, and decided to lump together and call 'labour cost per hour'† is a completely different concept. That'd be Oranges.
Apples and Oranges are both fruit. Wages received and Labour costs paid are both measured in dollars. The similarities are trivial in both cases.
That seventy-some dollar Labor Cost you're so fond of may be relevant to some issues, but not the point slowandeasy made.
†Note that it includes the costs of all benefits still to be paid, to workers long retired as well as to the guys earning those wages today. Now tell me why the company's longstanding obligation should be considered a workers' cost. To make the concept real simple: GM bellies up, lines stop, no one's employed. No wages paid. Those obligations are still there, even if there's no money to pay them. How would you translate them into 'labour cost per hour' then? Might as well cost the plant where the guys work as a labour cost per hour.
E
enduser1
This is what the Dodge dealer should do: sue the bank who leant him the money and claim that his loan which is a total loss is in fact a TARP II asset. to the bank and liable for a federal bailout.WoodPeckr said:
EU
1. I do not give a rats ass about the quotes or if I am using them to your expectations.
2. The pension obligation is the root of the bankruptcy & you want to exclude it for the purposes of negotiating a new deal for the future, by calling it an orange in an apple basket?
3. The point your missing is that all the parties do not expect GM to go belly up & cease all operations.
What is being negotiated is the future expenses per hour of labor. Not the past expense.
If that was the issue the negotiations would be about the asset sale & who gets what
The unions still expect a pension, benefits & they are very opposed to any wage concession. If you are not going to be working what is the point of negotiating a compensation package. Your example is moot & meaningless
4. Now here is the part you do not get. So I will type slow so you understand
Any negotiated outcome will include
a) wages
b) benefits
c) pension expenses (future or past if there is still a past obligation the new company must service)
These are the labor costs the emerging company will have to pay out of their treasury.
If they add up to $20 per hour of labor delivered or $65 / hr of labor delivered. That is the cost for every UAW / CAW hour of labor.
5. And (pay attention now) if that cost is too high, the company that emerges out of bankruptcy will lose money & soon
a) fail outright
b) look for more govt handouts
Note: I said too high, if it needs to lower than the imports, it needs to be lower. If it can be higher than the imports so be it.
Just hitting a benchmark does no good if there are other incremental costs (ie past pension obligations) the new GM will have relative to Honda
The point here is not to match Honda, but to emerge as a viable company, that is able to pay its bills
6. Separating the costs into buckets & calling them different things does not matter when there is no money left in the company treasury.
2. The pension obligation is the root of the bankruptcy & you want to exclude it for the purposes of negotiating a new deal for the future, by calling it an orange in an apple basket?
3. The point your missing is that all the parties do not expect GM to go belly up & cease all operations.
What is being negotiated is the future expenses per hour of labor. Not the past expense.
If that was the issue the negotiations would be about the asset sale & who gets what
The unions still expect a pension, benefits & they are very opposed to any wage concession. If you are not going to be working what is the point of negotiating a compensation package. Your example is moot & meaningless
4. Now here is the part you do not get. So I will type slow so you understand
Any negotiated outcome will include
a) wages
b) benefits
c) pension expenses (future or past if there is still a past obligation the new company must service)
These are the labor costs the emerging company will have to pay out of their treasury.
If they add up to $20 per hour of labor delivered or $65 / hr of labor delivered. That is the cost for every UAW / CAW hour of labor.
5. And (pay attention now) if that cost is too high, the company that emerges out of bankruptcy will lose money & soon
a) fail outright
b) look for more govt handouts
Note: I said too high, if it needs to lower than the imports, it needs to be lower. If it can be higher than the imports so be it.
Just hitting a benchmark does no good if there are other incremental costs (ie past pension obligations) the new GM will have relative to Honda
The point here is not to match Honda, but to emerge as a viable company, that is able to pay its bills
6. Separating the costs into buckets & calling them different things does not matter when there is no money left in the company treasury.
If you really believed your point 6) John, you wouldn't be so adamant about 'labour costs of $72 or more an hour are the problem'; it's an arbitrary "separation into buckets" if there ever was one. So why not include the cost of the plants, the executive salaries and the advertising budet as 'labour costs'? It makes as much sense as calling debt incurred years ago, i.e pensions for workers long retired, an hourly cost today. And don't those execs labour?
I have never disputed that GM has to get its costs down, just your obsession with dumping all those costs at labour's door. And as you did above, and repeatedly in this debate, your misrepresentation of the grossed up 'labour cost' as what the workers get.
Here's what was said:
Here's your reply:
Use your few facts honestly and maybe you'll be convincing enough to get no argument.
Sorry about the quote thing; proofreading to make sure you had both sides of the brackets [], and a [/] at the end for every [] at the beginning would solve that. Or maybe using the 'Wrap
I have never disputed that GM has to get its costs down, just your obsession with dumping all those costs at labour's door. And as you did above, and repeatedly in this debate, your misrepresentation of the grossed up 'labour cost' as what the workers get.
Here's what was said:
True. That'd be Apples.slowandeasy said:
Here's your reply:
Arguable, and anyway it's Oranges, 'cause it has nothing to do with the entirely accurate assessment of what the workers get.JohnLaRue said:
Use your few facts honestly and maybe you'll be convincing enough to get no argument.
Sorry about the quote thing; proofreading to make sure you had both sides of the brackets [], and a [/] at the end for every [] at the beginning would solve that. Or maybe using the 'Wrap
This 72 doller per hour crap drives me nuts. how they get this number is by
taking all the workers currently working + their pensions and benifits
then add all the pensioners + their benifits
then add all the surviving spouses + their benifits
then you add all that together and divide the total by the amount of people currently working in the plants and that is how you get 72 per hour and it is a dishonest way to come by it. it reality if they cut 5000 more out of the plants they go up per hour. I would love to know how many politicians we have + their benifits and golden handshake pensions. then add all the retired politicians and their golden handshake pensions. then add all the retiree surviving spouse of politicians and their benifits and pensions and divide that by the current number of poiticians and see what kind of hourly rate we get lol!
taking all the workers currently working + their pensions and benifits
then add all the pensioners + their benifits
then add all the surviving spouses + their benifits
then you add all that together and divide the total by the amount of people currently working in the plants and that is how you get 72 per hour and it is a dishonest way to come by it. it reality if they cut 5000 more out of the plants they go up per hour. I would love to know how many politicians we have + their benifits and golden handshake pensions. then add all the retired politicians and their golden handshake pensions. then add all the retiree surviving spouse of politicians and their benifits and pensions and divide that by the current number of poiticians and see what kind of hourly rate we get lol!
The big problem here is the difference in the opinion of what is the cost of labour. It basically comes down to HOW MUCH DOES IT COST TO BUILD A CAR.4nik8or said:
That number includes all the costs incured in the provision of labour for manufacturing. The costs of the pensions of retired members that is incurred in the maunfacturing of an automobile is in fact a labour cost. The fact that GM should have paid that cost out of previous profits is irrelevent it is a current cost doesn't matter if its apples oranges or midget wrestlers it is still a current cost. That is where the 72.00 per hour number comes from. Other manufacturing costs are also included in the cost of a car/truck, building costs , energy, materials everything it all adds up to the cost of making a car, what you call it is irrelevant to the conversation all those costs have to go down, labour, executives, suppliers f they want to keep working they really have to stop bitching and start bleeding. The CAW is taking its fair share of grief because of the statements over the yearsmade by its leaders . They made huge headlines about their agendas and how much money they had secured for there members, the excellent pension plans they negotiated basically at the point of a gun.( amazing how that statement comes home to roost) Now they have to pay.
Managment is also due for a good bloodletting, the lack of intellegence and basic arrogance of the people who just "knew " that GM was the be all and end all of manufacturing on the planet are about to take it right in the nuts. They have basically 1 chance to get this right there is absolutly no patients in the general public for bullshit on this issue. If GM does go the way of the Dodo other manufacturers will step up to provide the product, and those high paying union jobs will be gone for good. Its time for the idiots to put their agendas away and fix the problem .
The pensions of politicians and civil servants are not actually part of this discussion.They are in fact obscene and need to be removed from the politicvians at least but until a politician comes along with a platform that people will believe and vote for it woun't happen. It belongs in another rant....thread anyway.
Here endeth the rant
Does anyone really argue with:
- GM management and corporate culture of arrogance and shortsighted strategy have driven the company into the ground.
- GM's labor contracts put them at a competitive advantage by lowering productivity (work rules) and raising costs (pay and benefits for workers and retirees)
If both of these are root causes then why the endless debate about one vs the other.
OTB
- GM management and corporate culture of arrogance and shortsighted strategy have driven the company into the ground.
- GM's labor contracts put them at a competitive advantage by lowering productivity (work rules) and raising costs (pay and benefits for workers and retirees)
If both of these are root causes then why the endless debate about one vs the other.
OTB
Sure beats me. Although quite clearly only one of those parties had their hand on the tiller, steering (or pretending to), while the other was down below, rowing (or pretending to), at the time of the corporate shipwreck.onthebottom said:
But everyone's swimming now. Although my understanding is the guys who steered onto the rocks have better lifejackets. Oh, and it was the same guys who were allowed to get away with under-ordering lifeboats because their corporate ship was unsinkable.
But if you drown, well that was your own fault. Keeping you rowers happy distracted the steersman, and anyway, everyone knows you can't have gruel and lifeboats, even promised lifeboats. You chose gruel. So drown.
Rescue anyone? With my boat? Nope.
And on the TERBian evolutionary scale, it'll be the greedy, self-serving, incompetent steersman that climb from the water to do it all over again, only worse the next time.
On TERB, captains have no responsibility, it's all the damn rowers' fault.
