Actually, the fact that the purpose of the mission to Tinian was highly classified didn't contribute materially to the lack of rescue operations after the Indianapolis was sunk. It had already made it back to Guam, and was sunk on its way to Leyte. It was open knowledge, within naval command and control, when and where it left, and when and where it was due.
Getting Shot Down in WWII (Pacific)?
- Thread starter Keebler Elf
- Start date
I don't think anything but a lucky shot could have sunk the queen, she could outrun any torpedo the germans had at the time. (or so I believe)LancsLad said:
No, I don't think that's quite right. The typical torpedo used by U-Boats in the second half of WWII went at about 30 knots. The QE had a TOP SPEED of just under 30 knots. So, she couldn't have really outrun a German torpedo.
Anyway, it's moot. Most submarine torpedo attacks against surface vessels are undertaken perpendicular to the target's direction - that is, from the side. So, you just have to be closer to a faster target to execute a successful attack, that's all.
Anyway, it's moot. Most submarine torpedo attacks against surface vessels are undertaken perpendicular to the target's direction - that is, from the side. So, you just have to be closer to a faster target to execute a successful attack, that's all.
It's actually deflection shooting. You have to "lead" your target enough that the target "sails into" the torpedo. The question might be whether any sub could catch up with the Queen. Subs are not fast vessels, particularly if they are travelling underwater.King Elessar said:
In fact, quite the opposite. The German navy (including U-boats) used to rescue survivors and even put them on boats, give them water, and point them towards land (this was a throwback to the "honour on the High Seas" that both Germany and Great Britain possessed). That stopped after several rescuing German U-boats (which were even marked with white sheets as they were in the middle of towing several rowboats to shore) were bombed by Allied aircraft and the edict went out to stop attempting to rescue survivors.asn said:
Ah yes, I sort of remember reading about that.....Keebler Elf said:
One thing about the torpedos: sure they are the same speed but you have to remember the torpedos motors have a finite range and they have to actually catch up to a moving target even with a deflection shot as soon as the torp is spotted the Queen can maneuver and speed up to outrun the torp.
Precisely.oagre said:
But, U-Boats were very often led onto targets by wireless, rather than just chancing onto a target or convoy, so they might arrive at an ambush area well before the target does.
As for spotting a slow-moving torpedo - by that time, it would have been pretty much far too late. A ship like the QE handled like a ... well, like a battleship. And most of the torpedoes used by the Kriegsmarine in the second half of the war -notably the T3 - were very difficult to spot, unlike their predecessors.
Wikipedia:tboy said:
On May 25, 1944 U-853 spotted the Queen Mary, which was loaded with American troops and supplies. The U-boat submerged to attack, but was outrun by the much larger and faster ship.[5] As she surfaced in the Queen Mary's wake U-853 was attacked by Fairey Swordfish aircraft from merchant aircraft carriers MV Ancylus and MV Empire MacKendrick.[6] The U-boat took no significant damage and returned fire, hitting all three aircraft. The planes were able to return to their carrier, but after recovery one was deemed a total loss and jettisoned.
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TO the German who could sink the grand ocean liner RMS Queen Mary, Nazi leader Adolf Hitler had promised $250,000.
On June 12, 1943, the crew of a German U-boat was preparing to collect.
They found themselves in the unique position of being dead ahead of the fast-moving ocean liner, which carried more than 6000 troops across the Atlantic from Britain to America during World War II.
Stafford Heights local Cyril Burcher was flying out in a Liberator bomber to find the Queen Mary and escort her across the Atlantic when he chanced upon the U-Boat through a cloud clearing.
Unaware of the Queen Mary's presence, Mr Burcher attempted to test a new homing torpedo on the U-boat, but first had to get the submarine to submerge.
After a brief exchange of fire, Mr Burcher flew through a rain squall to give the impression he was giving up, in the hope that the sub would submerge on its own.
Cyril Burcher went from being an accountant to saviour of the Queen Mary.
"So I flew through this cloud, and here was the Queen Mary right below us, and heading straight for the U-boat," he recalls.
"That was why it didn't dive. It would have had radar contact with (the ship) and knew it was a very large boat and probably the Queen Mary."
As radio silence couldn't be broken, Mr Burcher signalled in morse code using an Aldis Lamp: 'U-boat on surface, six miles dead ahead'.
"And the Queen Mary immediately did a 90-degree starboard turn at about 36 knots. It was a beautiful sight to see.
"So when we knew the Queen Mary was safe, we went back to see if we could find the submarine, but it had dived, of course."
Five years later, the captain of the Queen Mary, Sir James Bisset, met Mr Burcher and personally congratulated him for saving the lives of more than 1500 troops that day.
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In 1942, at the height of World War II, the Curacoa (British light cruiser of 4,290 tons) was in a convoy escorting the Queen Mary when a decision was made onboard to chase a u-boat that had apparently been sighted nearby. Unfortunately, for all aboard the Curacoa, it crossed the path of the Queen Mary in its pursuit of the u-boat and was promptly cut in two in a resulting collision, and sunk. The Queen Mary did not attempt to stop and rescue survivors from the Curacoa. She was too busy trying to survive a potential u-boat attack by engaging in zigzag avoiding manoeuvres at a speed of twenty eight and a half knots . The 'Queen' was badly damaged, her bow plates folded back at least forty feet into the ship. A total of 338 men aboard the Curacao died as a result of this tragedy (25 officers and 313 ratings) There were 26 survivors. The incident occurred some 20 miles off the coast of Donegal, Ireland. The Curacoa lies northwest of Bloody Foreland, Donegal. The two parts of the ship lie on the seafloor about 500 metres apart from each other.
So, all of these instances involved sighting a U-Boat before it could attack.
Sure, no problem. U-Boats handle worse than surface ships, even on the surface. lol
But, if you think the QM did a "90 degree turn at 36 knots" *on a dime*, you're kidding yourself. Not that I believe the QM ever did *36* knots. Sorry, but that maneuver probably took several thousand yards and a minute or more.
Sure, no problem. U-Boats handle worse than surface ships, even on the surface. lol
But, if you think the QM did a "90 degree turn at 36 knots" *on a dime*, you're kidding yourself. Not that I believe the QM ever did *36* knots. Sorry, but that maneuver probably took several thousand yards and a minute or more.
During the war, the Queen Mary carried British Prime Minister Winston Churchill across the Atlantic for meetings with fellow Allied forces officials, he would be listed on the passenger manifest as "Colonel Warden" and insisted that the lifeboat assigned to him had a .303 machine gun fitted to it so he could "resist capture at all costs".King Elessar said:
Yes, the technical info on Wiki does say that 31.69 knots was the fastest the Queen did.
Here is the link to the story about the bomber pilot:
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/extras/ww2/cyrilburcher.htm
Maybe he exagerated the speed of the ship, but from what I can tell the basics of his story are true (with the exception of the 36 knots speed)
It would actually be FAR SAFER to be on a single ship crossing the Atlantic, especially a very fast one, rather than jammed together with a few dozen other targets and escort ships, attracting all sorts of attention.
Which is why the Grey Ghosts were never escorted. They went as fast as they could, on their own.
Which is why the Grey Ghosts were never escorted. They went as fast as they could, on their own.
However Hitler did issue orders about this. However, they were largely ignored by U-Boat commanders (who could get away with it due to crew loyalty and the widespread belief in the Kriegsmarine that doing otherwise was immoral.)Keebler Elf said:
I wouldn't say largely. Some U-boat commanders chose to ignore it. But as things got progressively worse for the U-boats in the Atlantic, taking the added risk of rescuing torpedoed victims wasn't an option.
But they certainly didn't machine gun survivors in the water (as depicted in that Enigma movie).
But they certainly didn't machine gun survivors in the water (as depicted in that Enigma movie).
As has already been mentioned the U.S.S. Indianapolis was under Top Secret Orders having delivered the “guts” of the Uranium “Little Boy” Atomic Bomb to Tinian Island.tboy said:
There were several inexcusable actions which combined to leave the crew in the water as long as they were:
1) The failure of the U.S.S. Indianapolis to arrive on time at Leyte from Guam was known to the Operations Officer at Tacloban, however, he not only failed to make inquirys as to the whereabouts of the Indianapolis but made no immediate report of her failure to arrive up his chain of command.
(He received a Letter of Reprimand, subsequently withdrawn in 1946. Also, in fairness Naval Regulations at the time stated “Arrival Reports shall not be made for combatant ships” In the wake of the sinking of the Indianapolis this regulation was altered to make it plain that overdue combatant ships were to be reported.)
2) Contrary to what the USN stated at the time, the Indianapolis broke radio silence and sent out distress calls. These were received by at least three other USN units however no action was taken (according to the records allegedly because one commander was intoxicated, another had told his radio gang not to disturb him and the third considered it to be a specious Japanese message.)
3) Although but a single Japanese message was intercepted and decrypted reporting the sinking of an unknown U.S. warship, though a tragic failure of pressure and priorities no one in Naval Intelligence in either Pearl Harbor or Guam put together that the location reported in the Japanese intercept and the expected location of the Indianapolis at that time were roughly the same.
The end result was that the survivors were in the water for at least twenty-four hours more than would otherwise have been the case.
I heard stories of Germans pilots in the battle of Britain crashing in farmer's fields and being attacked by pissed off farmers with pitch forks.
Basically, war is a crime and all participating are criminals. No side is free from committing crimes.
Basically, war is a crime and all participating are criminals. No side is free from committing crimes.
Yes he was. U.S. Navy Submarines were not infequently used as lifeguards off some of the Japanese held Islands towards the end of the War.onthebottom said:
