Garbage Strike - Give Me a Break

[Rockslinger]

There is no such thing as democracy without a powerful union movement.

Private sector unions are tolerable because they are subject to market discipline. Monopolistic public sector unions are not subject to market discipline and that is a problem because they can and will hold a city hostage. To be perfectly blunt, even parasites are smart enough to know not to kill the host .

 

[Mrbig1949]

You think public sector unions don't have market discipline? Try going a few weeks without your paycheck and see if the system is not balanced. Thats right, the city workers are not being paid. An argument can be made for almost every single union that the work they do is essential. The labour boards have ruled forever that essential means that people will die if you strike, not that you will be inconvenienced. The city of Toronto-your councillors, your trustees, your MPPs have been voting to ratify these contracts for generations. Try paying attention once in a while. The "market discipline" people are out of political favour. Hadn't you noticed?

 

[oldjones]

United we bargain; divided we beg.

 

[squash500]

You think public sector unions don't have market discipline? Try going a few weeks without your paycheck and see if the system is not balanced. Thats right, the city workers are not being paid. An argument can be made for almost every single union that the work they do is essential. The labour boards have ruled forever that essential means that people will die if you strike, not that you will be inconvenienced. The city of Toronto-your councillors, your trustees, your MPPs have been voting to ratify these contracts for generations. Try paying attention once in a while. The "market discipline" people are out of political favour. Hadn't you noticed?

I was listening to Howard Levitt who is a Toronto Labour lawyer on the Oakley show on AM640 yesterday morning. Levitt was basically saying that Miller was deceiving all Torontonians. If Miller wanted to he could have started to train replacement workers as early as January 2009 when the unions contract expired.

Miller then could have told the unions that if you don't agree to the cities offer then we won't sit down at the bargaining table with you for the next six months. In the meantime the members of these two unions would be getting desperate and replacement workers would be fully in place.

According to Levitt nothing was stopping Miller from doing this. However levitt admits that Miller is pro-union and is just waiting for the Toronto public to eventually become so irate and irritated with this prolonged strike that Miller can then give the union all the concessions and wage increases that they asked for.

In conclusion Miller could have played total hardball with the two unions in question but he refused to do so.

 

[blackrock13]

Ok
..................... If you think its tough because your garbage is piling up, well so is mine and I can't pay my rent!

Are you telling me you don't have enough in the bank to cover 1 months expenses, Woo! I wonder where all your money goes. Something's not right here.

 

[landscaper]

A couple of things

First the concept of there is no democracy with out a powerfull union movement is pure and unadulterated bullshit. Democracy gets along just fine with out unions, it also gets along fine with unions in the private sector.
Private sector unions have competion, something that public sector unions don't have, Ford employees go on strike Honda still builds and sells cars, that is the equalizer that does not exist in public sector strikes. If there was a serious attempt to privatize the garbage collection that would balance the scale but that won't happen in Toronto.

Second the concept that its in the current agreement it must by god stay there. The sick days bank is not there to provide a " retirement bonus" for employees it was created in the days prior to short term disability coverage which is widely available now.

The pay rates of city union employees artificially raises the labour costs of everything in the city of toronto, there is a rider on all tendered contracts from the city that the winner of teh contract must pay 90% of the unionized labour rate , that cuts out all the non union shops and raises the costs of everything that happens in toronto.

 

[blackrock13]

Howard Levitt has been around for 20+ and has worked both sides of the fence as a labour lawyer. He 's bang on with this statement. the scary part is that others know it but haven't got the balls to say it out loud.

 

[squash500]

A couple of things

First the concept of there is no democracy with out a powerfull union movement is pure and unadulterated bullshit. Democracy gets along just fine with out unions, it also gets along fine with unions in the private sector.
Private sector unions have competion, something that public sector unions don't have, Ford employees go on strike Honda still builds and sells cars, that is the equalizer that does not exist in public sector strikes. If there was a serious attempt to privatize the garbage collection that would balance the scale but that won't happen in Toronto.

Second the concept that its in the current agreement it must by god stay there. The sick days bank is not there to provide a " retirement bonus" for employees it was created in the days prior to short term disability coverage which is widely available now.

The pay rates of city union employees artificially raises the labour costs of everything in the city of toronto, there is a rider on all tendered contracts from the city that the winner of teh contract must pay 90% of the unionized labour rate , that cuts out all the non union shops and raises the costs of everything that happens in toronto.

Excellent post. That's another thing Levitt brought up. The lack of competition among public sector unions. Levitt was saying that it would only take a month or two to train some of these replacement workers to drive garbage trucks etc. Unemployment is so high in Toronto right now that these replacement workers would be grateful for the jobs.

They would also do the work for much cheaper wages. Similar to the wages that are paid to the contracted out garbage workers in Etobicoke.

However Levitt did also acknowledge that these union workers are set for life. Once you have worked for the city of Toronto for 10 years then you can't be fired or laid off. Just too repeat myself. These replacement workers could easily and legally be hired as long as these garbage workers stayed on strike. If the strike went on for 2 years then these replacement workers could work for 2 years. In the meantime these city union workers wouldn't get paid at all for those 2 years.

Once the strike was eventually settled then the replacement workers would have to be fired but by that time most of these striking union workers would probably be filing for bankruptcy!

 

[landscaper]

Excellent post. That's another thing Levitt brought up. The lack of competition among public sector unions. Levitt was saying that it would only take a month or two to train some of these replacement workers to drive garbage trucks etc. Unemployment is so high in Toronto right now that these replacement workers would be grateful for the jobs.

They would also do the work for much cheaper wages. Similar to the wages that are paid to the contracted out garbage workers in Etobicoke.

However Levitt did also acknowledge that these union workers are set for life. Once you have worked for the city of Toronto for 10 years then you can't be fired or laid off. Just too repeat myself. These replacement workers could easily and legally be hired as long as these garbage workers stayed on strike. If the strike went on for 2 years then these replacement workers could work for 2 years. In the meantime these city union workers wouldn't get paid at all for those 2 years.

Once the strike was eventually settled then the replacement workers would have to be fired but by that time most of these striking union workers would probably be filing for bankruptcy!

Why bother training new workers, contract out the service for 4 months with the contract renewable on a quarterly basis. The contract would simply renew itself if the strike was not settled. Once settled the contract would simply not be renewed and the city workers would go back to work. This would give you

A) trained workers with equipment so you would not need to wade through a piquet line .

B) No out of pocket expenses for terminated workers.

At present the temporary garbage dumps are a source of overtime after the strike is over. The union is counting on it to make up the lost pay due to the strike at overtime rates no less. At the very least a contractor should be hired to remove that garbage prior to its becoming a health issue, at the same time the city should have a restraining order issued preventing piquets at the removal.

 

[Mrbig1949]

Those are great policies union only contracting etc. Helps create a high wage high standard of living city. That is where I want to live, where organized workers make high wages.

 

[Mrbig1949]

The solution to the strike is 3% per year like all other city workers, cops, teachers, firefighters etc. Leave the rest of the contract status quo.

 

[5hummer]

It's disgusting that dump sites are City Parks. There must be other locations?

I remember during the snow storms there was a huge area where snow was moves to -- dundas/bloor/islington.

There must be similar areas throughout the city?

 

[landscaper]

Those are great policies union only contracting etc. Helps create a high wage high standard of living city. That is where I want to live, where organized workers make high wages.

You may want to live there but what do a majority of the population think? The other issue is a non union plumber or electrician can not bid a contract in Toronto, they are charging a good labour rate but nmot the union rate, that does a couple of things, first it raises the costs to the taxpayers, and second it can delay the work being completed with an insufficient number of available workers. The stories of appartment buildings with out of service elevators appear on a regular basis, and granted some of them are part supply problems but a good number of them are the delays involved in gettint the " qualified" people there. Qualified in this case being somebody from a company that pays the required rate in Toronto.

 

[landscaper]

It's disgusting that dump sites are City Parks. There must be other locations?

I remember during the snow storms there was a huge area where snow was moves to -- dundas/bloor/islington.

There must be similar areas throughout the city?

Snow dumps are not usable as garbage dumps because of the drainage, the waste would run into the water courses, those sites are picked so that the snow melts in to a creek or river without needing to be moved again.

The other thing is the sites can be picked to maximize the agravation of the population. If theey get mad enough a hero can show up and solve the problem by forcing a solution. Now some might think I am giving the powers that be in Toronto a little to much credit for intelligence but back to work legislation would solve a whole bunch of political problems for hizz worship not being the guy who forc ed the union back to work as well as being seen to get the garbage trucks moving again. Are the bright enought o pull something like this off?

 

[kohan]

Agreed.

I totally agree with that, I worked at the U of T library system while going to school, and the CUPE full-timers there were some of the fattest, whiniest, laziest, useless slobs I've ever seen who thought they were entitled to everything in return for nothing.

I used to work in the same building a detachment of CUPE workers were in. I spend much of my days visiting clients and would come and go from the office. Without fail, no matter the time of day I would come and go from my office, the elevator would stop on the CUPE floor. The same sloppy dressed overweight employees got on the elevator to go for one of their many smoke breaks. In the afternoons they smelled like beer. Their conversations were always petty. I always thought they would be well-challenged if they worked for any other outfit.

 

[kohan]

Agreed 2!

Howard Levitt has been around for 20+ and has worked both sides of the fence as a labour lawyer. He 's bang on with this statement. the scary part is that others know it but haven't got the balls to say it out loud.

I read his article about this matter last week. He calls issues as they should be called. It was a great article, and de-mystified the whole concept of replacement workers. I thought they were prevented from hiring them. In light of this, the city can hire temporary workers.

 

[wantoplay]

Considering they are handling one of the filthiest things on the planet - GARBAGE - having sick days is essential. But they need to be accountable for using them. And when they retire you are only paid for a percentage of what is in your bank, not for all of them.

I do not agree with the attitude that the union is displaying, because they should be lucky to have a job, let alone a sweet ass gig like the one they have now. Unions have outlived their usefulness.

I hope you Torontonians can have a Nice Canada Day despite the garbage build up.

 

[masterchief]

Where does Miller live?

Just northwest of Keele/Parkside & Bloor St W

 

[wantoplay]

I used to work in the same building a detachment of CUPE workers were in. I spend much of my days visiting clients and would come and go from the office. Without fail, no matter the time of day I would come and go from my office, the elevator would stop on the CUPE floor. The same sloppy dressed overweight employees got on the elevator to go for one of their many smoke breaks. In the afternoons they smelled like beer. Their conversations were always petty. I always thought they would be well-challenged if they worked for any other outfit.

Typical. I have often wondered just what goes on in their office.

 

[Anynym]

It's disgusting that dump sites are City Parks. There must be other locations?

I remember during the snow storms there was a huge area where snow was moves to -- dundas/bloor/islington.

There must be similar areas throughout the city?

Or, better, the location can be at a Park, but a city supervisor can drive some sort of collection vehicle in - maybe something that could allow the trash to be compacted as it's being collected. Maybe, say, a Garbage truck.

It should be no threat to the union, as no garbage collection is taking place. But having a manager drive in, man the truck all day, and drive away when the truck is full should be something even the City of Toronto could manage.