For those of you that want to fight to the last Ukranian

mandrill

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the facts about the Holomdor are contestable. Ukraine likess to frame it as a genocideal act targeted at them, but there is no definitive documentation that Stalin directly ordered the mass murder of Ukrainians.[33][34] Barkan et al. state that the term Holodomor was "introduced and popularized by the Ukrainian diaspora in North America before Ukraine became independent" and that the term 'Holocaust' in reference to the famine "is not explained at all."[35] Russians died as well. AFIK Russia did not start WWI or II but they certainly played a big role in ending WWII.
Oh look, Komrad Nottsky! Wiki is writing about you, tovarishch.


Cover-up of the famine
Soviet head-of-state Mikhail Kalinin responded to Western offers of food by telling of "political cheats who offer to help the starving Ukraine," and commented, "Only the most decadent classes are capable of producing such cynical elements."[4][8] In an interview with Gareth Jones in March 1933, Soviet Foreign Minister Maxim Litvinov stated, "Well, there is no famine", and went on to say: "You must take a longer view. The present hunger is temporary. In writing books you must have a longer view. It would be difficult to describe it as hunger."[citation needed]

On instructions from Litvinov, Boris Skvirsky, embassy counselor of the recently opened Soviet Embassy in the United States, published a letter on 3 January 1934, in response to a pamphlet about the famine.[9] In his letter, Skvirsky stated that the idea that the Soviet government was "deliberately killing the population of Ukraine" "wholly grotesque." He claimed that the Ukrainian population had been increasing at an annual rate of 2 percent during the preceding five years and asserted that the death rate in Ukraine "was the lowest of that of any of the constituent republics composing the Soviet Union", concluding that it "was about 35 percent lower than the pre-war death rate of tsarist days."[10]

Mention of the famine was criminalized, punishable with a five-year term in the Gulag labor camps. Blaming the authorities was punishable by death.[4] William Henry Chamberlin was a Moscow correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor for 10 years; in 1934 he was reassigned to the Far East. After he left the Soviet Union he wrote his account of the situation in Ukraine and North Caucasus (Poltava, Bila Tserkva, and Kropotkin). Chamberlin later published a couple of books: Russia's Iron Age and The Ukraine: A Submerged Nation.[11][12] He wrote in the Christian Science Monitor in 1934 that "the evidence of a large-scale famine was so overwhelming, was so unanimously confirmed by the peasants that the most 'hard-boiled' local officials could say nothing in denial."[13]

Falsification and suppression of evidence
The true number of dead was concealed. At the Kyiv Medical Inspectorate, for example, the actual number of corpses, 9,472, was recorded as only 3,997.[14] The GPU was directly involved in the destruction of actual birth and death records, as well as the fabrication of false information to cover up information regarding the causes and scale of death in Ukraine.[15]

The January 1937 census, the first in 11 years, was intended to reflect the achievements of Stalin's rule. Those collecting the data, senior statisticians with decades of experience, were arrested and executed, including three successive heads of the Soviet Central Statistical Administration. The census data itself was locked away for half a century in the Russian State Archive of the Economy.[16]

Soviet campaign in the 1980s
The Soviet Union denied the existence of the famine until its 50th anniversary, in 1983, when the worldwide Ukrainian community coordinated famine remembrance.[citation needed] The Ukrainian diaspora exerted significant pressure on the media and various governments, including the United States and Canada, to raise the issue of the famine with the government of the Soviet Union.

In February 1983, Alexander Yakovlev, the Soviet Ambassador to Canada, in a secret analysis "Some thoughts regarding the advertising of the Ukrainian SSR Pavilion held at the International Exposition "Man and the world" held in Canada" put forward a prognosis for a campaign being prepared to bring international attention to the Ukrainian Holodomor which was spearheaded by the Ukrainian nationalist community. Yakovlev proposed a list of concrete proposals to "neutralise the enemy ideological actions of the Ukrainian bourgeoise nationalists".[17]

By April 1983, the bureau of the Soviet Novosti Press Agency had prepared and sent out a special press release denying the occurrence of the 1933 famine in Ukraine. This press release was sent to every major newspaper, radio and television station as well as University in Canada. It was also sent out to all members of the Canadian parliament.

On 5 July 1983, the Soviet Embassy issued an official note of protest regarding the planned opening of a monument in memory of the victims of the Holodomor in Edmonton[19] attempting to smear the opening of the monument.

In October 1983, the World Congress of Ukrainians led by V-Yu Danyliv attempted to launch an international tribunal to judge the facts regarding the Holodomor. At the 4th World Congress of Ukrainians held in December 1983, a resolution was passed to form such an international tribunal.[19]

Former Ukrainian president Leonid Kravchuk recalled that he was responsible for countering the Ukrainian Diaspora's public education campaign of the 1980s, marking 50 years of the Soviet terror famine in 1983: "In the early 1980s many publications began appearing in the Western press on the occasion of the fiftieth anniversary of one of the most horrific tragedies in the history of our people. A counter-propaganda machine was put into motion, and I was one of its wheels." The first book on the famine was published in Ukraine only in 1989, after a major shake-up that occurred in the Communist Party of Ukraine when Volodymyr Ivashko replaced Volodymyr Shcherbytsky and the Political Bureau decided that such book could be published. However, even in this book, "the most terrifying photographs were not approved for print, and their number was reduced from 1,500 to around 350."[20]

Ultimately, as President of Ukraine, Kravchuk exposed the official cover-up attempts and came out in support of recognizing the famine, named the "Holodomor", as genocide.[citation needed]
 

mandrill

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Well sure but Israel was doing that before Oct 7th under the term "administrative detention"
Yes. Of people who were planning to kill Israeli woman and children or had already done / attempted to do so, Nottsky.
 

oil&gas

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Apr 16, 2002
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Ghawar
So you consider Russia uncivilized? That seems a rather antiquated view, especially as you cheer them on.
Between civilized and uncivilized there was a whole
spectrum of levels of economic development and degree of
modernization across world's nations. China for instance
in the 19th century was way more backward than Russia.

Serfdom was not abolished in Russia until around 1860 when
people of the entire Europe by then had already been endowed
with core human rights we are entitled to today. Until the
communist revolution Russian society were still struggling
to modernize and to catch up with the west.
 
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basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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Between civilized and uncivilized there was a whole
spectrum of levels of economic development and degree of
modernization across world's nations. China for instance
in the 19th century was way more backward than Russia.

Serfdom was not abolished in Russia until around 1860 when
people of the entire Europe by then had long been endowed
with core human rights we are entitled to today. Until the
communist revolution Russian society were still struggling
to modernize and to catch up with the west.
Thanks for admitting you think Russians uncivilized so you think it okay for them to act that way.

In the modern world, it's purely racist to describe different cultures as uncivilized. All it does is shows you think certain people are beneath you.
 

basketcase

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sure but Israel refused to incorporate any langauge to ensure the landswaps were fair and equitable. Now WHY is that? 🤣
Um, negotiations. Have you heard about them? Israel proposed a comprehensive deal and put forward what they thought was reasonable. The PA just walked away without any counterproposal.

Are you an elitist like Frank who thinks one side should just unilaterally impose a deal on the other?
 

basketcase

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Well sure but Israel was doing that before Oct 7th under the term "administrative detention"
Most countries arrest people for crimes. Hamas kidnapped their victims for being Jews and accessible. Unless you think the elderly women and infants were really kidnapped for their 'crimes'.
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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the facts about the Holomdor are contestable. Ukraine likess to frame it as a genocideal act targeted at them, but there is no definitive documentation that Stalin directly ordered the mass murder of Ukrainians.[33][34] Barkan et al. state that the term Holodomor was "introduced and popularized by the Ukrainian diaspora in North America before Ukraine became independent" and that the term 'Holocaust' in reference to the famine "is not explained at all."[35] Russians died as well. AFIK Russia did not start WWI or II but they certainly played a big role in ending WWII.
It would be sensible to link your source of Wikipedia instead of claiming it as your own thoughts.
 

oil&gas

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Apr 16, 2002
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Ghawar
Oilsky, what is the biggest country in the world?

And how tiny was Muscovy before the Muscovites started killing, genociding and massacring all the people around them and taking their land?

Go look up how Muscovy genocided the Kazan Tartars, the Kazakhs, the Bashkirs, the Yakuts, etc etc etc. Just because you don't inform yourself about this stuff doesn't mean it didn't happen. Rightsky, komrad?
Pretty much all civilizations evolved from barbarians and semi-barbarians.

You are looking back to a time when civilization at least in where
Russia is today had just begun.

Go back to my earlier posts. This discussion originated from talks
about how civilized people/countries don't invade. At one point I
specifically referred to wars of invasion launched from the last 5 centuries.
 

nottyboi

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May 14, 2008
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It would be sensible to link your source of Wikipedia instead of claiming it as your own thoughts.
Why would I claim it as my own thoughts. That would be redicuous. I was not alive at the time so any thoughts I have on the subject would have to come from some external source.
 

nottyboi

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Most countries arrest people for crimes. Hamas kidnapped their victims for being Jews and accessible. Unless you think the elderly women and infants were really kidnapped for their 'crimes'.
There were no charges or crimes for "administrative detention" the Jews were kidnapped as hosstages for exchange. If Hamas was hell bent on slaughter as you say they would have just killed them all.
 
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oil&gas

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Ghawar
That seems a rather antiquated vie..w, especially as you cheer them on.
There was a time I watched WWF wrestling matches regularly.
I didn't necessarily cheer the good guys when I had figured out
they were going to loose.
 

Frankfooter

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The second part is exactly true. In every case because Arab and Palestinian leaders rejected them.
1937, 1947, 2000, 2001, 2008, ... every time Israel said okay to peace while the Arab leaders, Arafat, and Abbas refused and Hamas chose violence.
Post the full deals that were offered, with links to the documents and borders proposed.
Unless you're bullshitting again, of course.
Then you can go back to blaming Hamas for the 75 year old occupation.
 

Frankfooter

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Um, negotiations. Have you heard about them? Israel proposed a comprehensive deal and put forward what they thought was reasonable. The PA just walked away without any counterproposal.

Are you an elitist like Frank who thinks one side should just unilaterally impose a deal on the other?
Sure they did, basketcase.
By the way, one side has unilaterally imposed the apartheid one state solution.
That happened years ago and you just kept cheering it on.

 

basketcase

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Sure they did, basketcase.
...
Yes, they tried. Abbas walked away without counterproposals and Hamas chose terrorism to prevent the possibility.



p.s. Sounds like Hamas is going to reject yet another ceasefire proposal worked on in both Paris and Qatar. Seems Hamas thinks 18 Palestinians convicted of violent crimes aren't enough for the release each Israeli woman.
 
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Frankfooter

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Yes, they tried. Abbas walked away without counterproposals and Hamas chose terrorism to prevent the possibility.



p.s. Sounds like Hamas is going to reject yet another ceasefire proposal worked on in both Paris and Qatar. Seems Hamas thinks 18 Palestinians convicted of violent crimes aren't enough for the release each Israeli woman.
What ceasefire proposal?
There still is none, Netanyahu is only interested in a final solution.

 

basketcase

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What ceasefire proposal?
...
Do you not read news? I know that Musk pays you to spam us with twitter but there are actual news stories out there. Or maybe you think Qatar is lying about the negotiations.


It's amazing how desperately you try to avoid criticizing the Palestinian leadership. As Jon Stewart pointed out, despite the issues with Netanyahu's leadership, Hamas is outright against the Jewish presence. I know you think what Palestinians think isn't important to you but anyone who actually wants peace knows their opinion needs to be included
 
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