Food for thought

Voodoo Child

New member
Oct 14, 2002
61
0
0
Right Behind You
Daily Mirror (newspaper in London)
No matter what your views on President Bush's statement of upcoming war,
this, from an English journalist, is very interesting. For those of you not familiar with the UK's Daily Mirror, this is a notoriously left-wing daily that is normally not supportive of the Colonials across the Atlantic.

"Tony Parsons" Daily Mirror September 11, 2002

ONE year ago, the world witnessed a unique kind of broadcasting -- the mass murder of thousands, live on television. As a lesson in the pitiless cruelty of the human race, September 11 was up there, with Pol Pot's mountain of skulls in Cambodia, or the skeletal bodies stacked like garbage in the Nazi concentration camps. An unspeakable act so cruel, so calculated and so utterly merciless that surely the world could agree on one thing -- nobody deserves this fate. Surely there could be consensus: the victims
were truly innocent, the perpetrators truly evil.

But to the world's eternal shame, 9/11 is increasingly seen as
America's comeuppance. Incredibly, anti-Americanism has increased over the last year. There has always been a simmering resentment to the USA in this country -- too loud, too rich, too full of themselves and so much happier than Europeans - but it has become an epidemic. And it seems incredible to me.
More than that, it turns my stomach.

America is this country's greatest friend and our staunchest ally. We are bonded to the US by culture, language and blood. A little over half a century ago, around half a million Americans died for our freedoms, as well as their own. Have we forgotten so soon? And exactly a year ago, thousands of ordinary men, women and children -- not just Americans, but from dozens of countries -- were butchered by a small group of religious fanatics. Are we so quick to betray them?

What touched the heart about those who died in the twin towers and on the planes was that we recognized them. Young fathers and mothers, somebody's son and somebody's daughter, husbands and wives, and children, some unborn.

And these people brought it on themselves? And their nation is to blame for their meticulously planned slaughter?

These days you don't have to be some dust-encrusted nut job in Kabul or Karachi or Finsbury Park to see America as the Great Satan. The anti-American alliance is made up of self-loathing liberals who blame the Americans for every ill in the Third World, and conservatives suffering from power-envy, bitter that the world's only superpower can do what it likes
without having to ask permission.

The truth is that America has behaved with enormous restraint since September 11.

Remember, remember. Remember the gut-wrenching tapes of weeping men phoning their wives to say, "I love you," before they were burned alive.

Remember those people leaping to their deaths from the top of burning skyscrapers.

Remember the hundreds of firemen buried alive.

Remember the smiling face of that beautiful little girl who was on one of the planes with her mum.

Remember, remember -- and realize that America has never retaliated for 9/11 in anything like the way it could have.

So a few al-Qaeda tourists got locked without a trial in Camp X-ray?

Pass the Kleenex...

So some Afghan wedding receptions were shot up after they merrily fired their semiautomatics in a sky full of American planes? A shame, but maybe next time they should stick to confetti.

AMERICA could have turned a large chunk of the world into a parking lot. That it didn't is a sign of strength. American voices are already being raised against attacking Iraq - that's what a democracy is for. How many in the Islamic world will have a minute's silence for the slaughtered innocents of 9/11? How many Islamic leaders will have the guts to say that the mass murder of 9/11 was an abomination?

When the news of 9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving Palestinians were dancing in the street. America watched all of that and didn't push the button. We should thank the stars that America is the most powerful nation in the world. I still find it incredible that 9/11 did not provoke all-out war. Not a "war on terrorism." A real war.
 

Voodoo Child

New member
Oct 14, 2002
61
0
0
Right Behind You
The fundamentalist dudes are talking about "opening the gates of
hell," if America attacks Iraq. Well, America could have opened the gates of hell like you wouldn't believe.

The US is the most militarily powerful nation that ever strode the
face of the earth. The campaign in Afghanistan may have been less than perfect and the planned war on Iraq may be misconceived.

But don't blame America for not bringing peace and light to these
wretched countries. How many democracies are there in the Middle East, or in the Muslim world? You can count them on the fingers of one hand-assuming you haven't had any chopped off for minor shoplifting.

I love America, yet America is hated. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle. But I would rather be a dog in New York City than a Prince in Riyadh. Above all, America is hated because it is what every country wants to be -- rich, free, strong, open, optimistic. Not ground down by the past, or religion, or some caste system. America is the best friend this country ever had and we should start remembering that.

Or do you really think the USA is the root of all evil? Tell it to the
loved ones of the men and women who leaped to their death from the burning towers. Tell it to the nursing mothers whose husbands died on one of the hijacked planes, or were ripped apart in a collapsing skyscraper. And tell it to the hundreds of young widows whose husbands worked for the New
York Fire Department.

To our shame, George Bush gets a worse press than Saddam Hussein. Once we were told that Saddam gassed the Kurds, tortured his own people and set up rape-camps in Kuwait. Now we are told he likes Quality Street.

Save me the orange center, oh mighty one!

Remember, remember, September 11.

One of the greatest atrocities in human history was committed against America.

No, do more than remember. Never forget.
 

MuffinMuncher

And very good at it
Oct 3, 2001
4,605
5
38
55
Here
Thanks!

As an American and a native New Yorker, I appreciate your thoughts and commend the clarity with which you outlined your points. You are entirely correct, its a shame that so many people, including many Canadians, relish the opportunity to take shots at the US simply for having the courage and ability to do what other countries cannot (or will not) do.

Be prepared.... by the end of this page, or certainly by the end of the next page, the "Death to America" crowd will be out in full force.
 

luckyjackson

Active member
Aug 19, 2001
1,505
2
38
I don't think any reasonable person sees 911 as a comeuppance.

But it would be an injustice to any future victims of terrorism not to at least examine how America's behaviour abroad engenders feelings of resentment and hatred. Please don't get me wrong. I agree that America is - in the main - a responsible, compassionate and fair world power. If I could choose to put 'world's strongest nation status' in any hands, I'd leave it in American hands.

It is however a fact that there are unfortunately many fanatics out there, who have the capability to do harm on the scale of 911 or greater, and who see America's relatively minor mistakes as reason enough to kill innocents. So I'm not saying America had it coming by any means, but it is disturbing to note that we've seen zero effort by the Bush administration to reassess some of what many Muslims see as injustice. Palestine comes to mind. The hardest blow America could strike against terrorist loons would be to undermine the popular support they enjoy from millions of muslims. You don't do that with threats and missles, you do it by changing minds.

As a last observation, politics does indeed make strange bedfellows doesn't it? The people in the West who are at the forefront of the 'America bashing' crowd, who are jealous of America's status in the world, who would be happy to see America taken down a peg or two, are the the greatest exercisers of the rights to speak and live as they please - rights which simply don't exist in most Muslim societys, especially for women.
 

TheNiteHwk

New member
Aug 22, 2001
6,060
0
0
69
Downtown Toronto
www.profile.to
Excellent post Voodoo...

luckyjackson said:
I don't think any reasonable person sees 911 as a comeuppance. /B]


come·up·pance __n.
A punishment or retribution that one deserves; one's just deserts: “It's a chance to strike back at the critical brotherhood and give each his comeuppance for evaluative sins of the past” (Judith Crist).

I agree and yet disagree. I have heard more then a few people say they thought the Americans had something like this coming to them. Just deserts as they say. IMO though these people are not very reasonable.

I myself am not always a big fan of the US yet I admire them in many respects as well. One thing for sure I would much rather have the US act as or be the 'world police' then any other super power.

Excellent post Voodoo... almost brought tears to my eyes. Excellent points... well articulated. Let us never forget.
 
Last edited:

kwong_1978

Who Am I? U first!
Jan 2, 2003
574
0
0
Don't Go Far Enough

I am a political realist so, IMHO, the US don't go far enough.

I think it's time for them to say;
"Fu*k you all. I am doing what's in the best interest of my country. Join me, fight me or stay out of the fu*king way. I don't give a sh*t." No more bullsh*t, fu*king resolutions. BTW, France & Germany, I now know who my true friends are you chicken sh*t pussies. Saddam be scare be very scare. Kim Jong Il or Il Jong Kim or whatever your name is, try me if you think I can't take on the two of you at the same time. Anybody else? Come on, now is your chance."

Sorry, just ranting. Please excuse my language.
 
Last edited:

i am one

Well-known member
Jan 4, 2002
1,220
58
48
Canada
Voodoo Child said:
AMERICA could have turned a large chunk of the world into a parking lot. That it didn't is a sign of strength.
What happened with the World Trade Center in 2001 was a result of the American government's actions. The attacks weren't a beginning, it was the result of decades of American foreign policy that a lot of people never agreed with. I'm not saying that they deserved it, but it just goes to say that no matter how big or strong you are, if you keep provoking someone then one day they'll provoke you back. Another thing is that generally people around the world don't hate the American population, they hate the American government and thier foreign policy.
 

papasmerf

New member
Oct 22, 2002
26,531
0
0
42.55.65N 78.43.73W
Re: Re: Food for thought

i am one said:


What happened with the World Trade Center in 2001 was a result of the American government's actions.


Careful ONE you biggotery is showing.

Yes a person can be a biggot when it comes to the US.
 

Groucho

New member
Jan 28, 2002
75
0
0
75
Buffalo, NY
>>ONE year ago, the world witnessed a unique kind of broadcasting -- the mass murder of thousands, live on television. As a lesson in the pitiless cruelty of the human race, September 11 was up there, with Pol Pot's mountain of skulls in Cambodia, or the skeletal bodies stacked like garbage in the Nazi concentration camps. An unspeakable act so cruel, so calculated and so utterly merciless that surely the world could agree on one thing -- nobody deserves this fate. Surely there could be consensus: the victims
were truly innocent, the perpetrators truly evil. <<

The world, specifically, the US, did virtually nothing about the Pol Pot regime because the US had bankrupted any moral authority it might have had in Asia by its Viet Nam imperialism
WW2 was not about concentration camps. If Japan hadn't attacked the US, and if Germany hadn't invaded Russia, and had sent out peaceful messages after taking France, the Nazi's could have exterminated every Jew in Europe and the US would have done nothing about it. We were in complete denial about the Holocaust until our face was rubbed into it.
Are you saying that anyone who is responsible for the deaths of 3000 innocents is truly evil? That would mean the clear majority of the countries in the world are truly evil.

Now, having said that, I will say that bin Laden and his ilk are very far down on my list of good guys. If he were standing in front of me, and I had a gun in my hand, there's a decent chance I would pull the trigger. But, say he was holding a 10 year old girl in front of him, and I would have to shoot her to kill him. Well, that's where it gets tricky. And, that is where we are now. To get bin Laden, or to get Saddam Hussien, we are going to have to kill a LOT of 10 year old girls and boys. For most of us, the killing will be abstract. But, those kids are going to be just as dead.
The counter-argument is that those bad guys are going to be responsible for the deaths of lots of 10 year old boys and girls, if we leave them alone. A good point. A very strong point.
But, you know, if if each one of us here had a gun in our hands and we could eliminate Hussein or bin Laden if we shot a 10 year old, we would ( I hope!) say "hey--is there something else we could do?" And, given that incentive, I bet you we would find something else we could do.
 

Kurt

Well-known member
Jun 20, 2002
767
267
63
55
Somewhere between here and there
America

I've travel throughout Europe and Asia (including the middle east)
American's are hated for being bold, obnoxious and condescending and I know where some of that comes from but no one deserves what happened to those people Sept. 11.
If they had struck military target basically declaring war on the US I think that maybe (I stress the maybe) they could say they were retaliating against US involvement in the Middle East but they hit people on their way to work trying not military personel.
This was an act of cowardice and I also think the US has acted very well considering.

MY THOUGHTS
 

onthebottom

Never Been Justly Banned
Jan 10, 2002
40,555
23
38
Hooterville
www.scubadiving.com
Re: Thanks!

MuffinMuncher said:
...

Be prepared.... by the end of this page, or certainly by the end of the next page, the "Death to America" crowd will be out in full force.
Muffin,

Groucho and i am one sure proved you right.

(walks away shaking head) OTB
 

i am one

Well-known member
Jan 4, 2002
1,220
58
48
Canada
My post is nothing of the "death to America" chant. The whole point of my post was that if you (the American government) keep playing with fire (foreign policy) then you're going to get burned.

But since you brought up the issue, what IS sad is how whenever anyone says something contrary to the American government's stand then they're automatically labelled as "communist", "anti-American", "gay", "terrorist sympathizers" or "nazis". The world isn't black and white, there isn't just 'good' and 'evil', just shades of grey and if you think everyone absolutely must follow whatever the government says then I feel sorry for you.
 

Quest4Less

Well-known member
May 25, 2002
1,063
27
48
i am one said:
The world isn't black and white, there isn't just 'good' and 'evil', just shades of grey.
Yes the world does have a lot of "grey" areas.... However, there most certainly is "good" and "evil". Sadam, Bin Laden, and many more, are without a doubt EVIL. They must be stopped, whatever the cost.

I don't know who first said it but the quote goes.... "All that is required for evil to win is for good people to do nothing".
 

papasmerf

New member
Oct 22, 2002
26,531
0
0
42.55.65N 78.43.73W
i am one said:
The world isn't black and white, there isn't just 'good' and 'evil', just shades of grey sorry for you.
Don't feel sorry for me.
It is I who feels bad for you and yours. Any child you may or have raised to think that grey is the way of the world.

EVIL is EVIL there is not an accapable time when you can fly 300 people ito a building and call it acceptable.

This may well be a univeral truth.
 
Ashley Madison
Toronto Escorts