Female only Businesses

[sempel]

I just heard on the radio that there is going to be a female only service. Unfortunately I didn't catch the beginning of the show so I cannot say for sure what the business is but it sounded like an Uber/Lyft type service. I guess the drivers would all be female and only pick up females. The host then asked people to call in to discuss if this is fair.

So I'll ask the same question as the host - is this fair?

This also brought back the memory of being up north on vacation. Went to the local Loblaws which had a Women-only Goodlife and when I asked, was told the closest co-ed location was very far away.

I used to go to a Goodlife with a female-only area that was separate and blocked off and had no issue with this given the majority of the gym was coed and there (probably) wasn't anything there that wasn't available in the co-ed section. And I can understand a service like Uber adding the option of choosing a female driver if the customer is female. But isn't a service that hires only females and services females discriminating against males and would therefore be illegal?

 

[spaman]

terrible business model, you just got rid of half your potential clients.

 

[ravencroft]

It's a great discussion topic. On the one hand i can understand why there might be a need for female-only taxi services where both driver and passenger are female: sexual assault is far less likely. It's why you don't see female couriers/pizza delivery people - send them to the "wrong" house and you've got Mail Order rape fodder. Scary thought and I'd hate to be a woman and have that be a lingering fear in the back of my mind, haunting/coloring my every decision.

On the other hand, I can see why some people of both genders might be getting their Reverse Gender Discrimination axes ready to grind... but I think we have to pick and choose our Common Sense battles and Women's Safety should trump men's inconvenience / indignation.

 

[Mr Deeds]

I think Ill start a business servicing females only

 

[Theobservantone]

It's a great discussion topic. On the one hand i can understand why there might be a need for female-only taxi services where both driver and passenger are female: sexual assault is far less likely. It's why you don't see female couriers/pizza delivery people - send them to the "wrong" house and you've got Mail Order rape fodder. Scary thought and I'd hate to be a woman and have that be a lingering fear in the back of my mind, haunting/coloring my every decision.

On the other hand, I can see why some people of both genders might be getting their Reverse Gender Discrimination axes ready to grind... but I think we have to pick and choose our Common Sense battles and Women's Safety should trump men's inconvenience / indignation.

I've watched male delivery men get beaten and robbed, so the argument that men have nothing to fear when delivering to/picking up other men rings a bit hollow for me. Cabbies get robbed daily. As a man you're twice as likely to die by homicide than a woman last I checked Stats Can. Everyone has concerns when dealing with unknown men. I've had my life threatened a few times, and I'm not a small guy. I call BS on the argument that women are the only ones with concerns. But, I say let the market decide. Start up the business, if it fails, it was a bad idea, if it succeeds, it was a good one.

 

[rhuarc29]

From a safety perspective, it's understandable. But it'll be obsolete once automated vehicles take over anyway, which isn't that far off.

 

[explorerzip]

What does "fair" have to do with this business? It's called DriveHer BTW and it is Uber for women only. Like any other business they'll slog it out for a while and maybe grab some market share or it will fail.

 

[sempel]

What does "fair" have to do with this business? It's called DriveHer BTW and it is Uber for women only. Like any other business they'll slog it out for a while and maybe grab some market share or it will fail.

Thanks for the info (again, missed that).

I'm pretty sure it's illegal to discriminate based on gender when it comes to service and hiring practices. Plenty of examples of women in various workplaces suing and winning for gender discrimination. Obviously I understand there's certain business models where this is ok (for example, I don't expect men to be hired by escort agencies or MP's and the ads solicit women to apply). But if a man orders a DriveHer pickup the driver will be refusing service based on gender (ignoring the fact that the guy is an idiot for ordering a pickup from a company that only serves females). That's wrong.

I'm not ignorant to the fact that many ladies might feel more comfortable if the driver was a female. Totally understandable, which is why I think Uber and Lyft should add that as an option (although I'm sure some guys will pretend they are women and request female drivers). I also know for example that Muslim women aren't allowed to exercise with men so totally understandable if gyms have female only sections that allow privacy - simple case of exclusion actually being more inclusive.

There have been publicized complaints when women have gone into a gay bar and been refused service. IMO they are totally justified in being upset and those bars are in the wrong for discriminating. There have also been many publicized protests of male-only clubs (e.g. Augusta until the recent change) which didn't allow females. So as ravencroft indicated, reverse gender discrimination is what this is.

If DriveHer is ok and "fair", is DriveWhitesOnly fair? Is DriveHim fair?

 

[explorerzip]

Thanks for the info (again, missed that).

I'm pretty sure it's illegal to discriminate based on gender when it comes to service and hiring practices. Plenty of examples of women in various workplaces suing and winning for gender discrimination. Obviously I understand there's certain business models where this is ok (for example, I don't expect men to be hired by escort agencies or MP's and the ads solicit women to apply). But if a man orders a DriveHer pickup the driver will be refusing service based on gender (ignoring the fact that the guy is an idiot for ordering a pickup from a company that only serves females). That's wrong.

If it truly was illegal to discriminate based on gender then the women only gyms would not exist. Clearly, there are some reasonable exceptions to the human rights code when it comes to hiring practices and the clientele a business can choose to service.

A single man can certainly order a DriveHer car, but I think it is up to the driver to accept him or not. DriveHer does have a stipulation on their website about having male and female passengers:

1. What happens when a female passenger is with a male?


If the passenger’s male companion is travelling in the same direction but to a different destination, it is up to you (the driver) to decide to take them or refer them to another service (e.g. uber/taxi). However, you can only take these passengers if the male passenger is getting out before the end of the ride. For safety, the female passenger must be the last to exit the car.

 

[sempel]

check out this vacation retreat where white people aren't allowed lol: https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/mb5gea/what-its-like-to-take-a-vacation-away-from-white-people

basically if you're a white male these days, get used to businesses and services openly discriminating against you because "racism" lol - how ironic.

Wow. I thought the attitude displayed by some of the ladies, especially the owner/founder, was terrible. The attitude displayed was hypocritical. They were basically casting a stereotype on all white people based on their interactions with some white people, interactions which showed how they as black people were stereotyped. So do 2 wrongs make a right? Not in my books.

 

[sempel]

If it truly was illegal to discriminate based on gender then the women only gyms would not exist. Clearly, there are some reasonable exceptions to the human rights code when it comes to hiring practices and the clientele a business can choose to service.

A single man can certainly order a DriveHer car, but I think it is up to the driver to accept him or not. DriveHer does have a stipulation on their website about having male and female passengers:

1. What happens when a female passenger is with a male?


If the passenger’s male companion is travelling in the same direction but to a different destination, it is up to you (the driver) to decide to take them or refer them to another service (e.g. uber/taxi). However, you can only take these passengers if the male passenger is getting out before the end of the ride. For safety, the female passenger must be the last to exit the car.

IMO a female only gym should not exist unless a coed/male-only gym is attached/close. When I was up north, it was a Goodlife gym. I was a Goodlife member and yet would have had to travel far (say 30-40km) to use a Goodlife facility? That wasn't right.

I don't so much care about the practicalities of DriveHer and how it specifically works. From a safety perspective, I totally get it and when it comes down to it I have no real issue with females wanting female drivers. I just don't think it's right that you have a separate, stand-alone business that does this.

The other thing is Uber/Lyft are unlicensed. A taxi driver is licensed. I don't deny that some cab drivers have assaulted women but every cab has a license and the driver's info so there's clearly a way to track down a suspected attacker. This perhaps comes across a little like having your cake and eating it too. Females want the safety a licensed cab is supposed to offer but want to go with an unlicensed service to save money.

 

[Horny_gentleman]

What happens when a man that identifies as a women decides to use this service?

 

[MojoRisin']

Wow. I thought the attitude displayed by some of the ladies, especially the owner/founder, was terrible. The attitude displayed was hypocritical. They were basically casting a stereotype on all white people based on their interactions with some white people, interactions which showed how they as black people were stereotyped. So do 2 wrongs make a right? Not in my books.

Couldnt agree more. They use terms like "they and them" referring to white people.

"White people should not even be able to have passports. They should just stay in the states. Go and hang out with other white people..you have already done enough trouble" Ridiculous

WOW!!!!

 

[GameBoy27]

It's a great discussion topic. On the one hand i can understand why there might be a need for female-only taxi services where both driver and passenger are female: sexual assault is far less likely. It's why you don't see female couriers/pizza delivery people - send them to the "wrong" house and you've got Mail Order rape fodder. Scary thought and I'd hate to be a woman and have that be a lingering fear in the back of my mind, haunting/coloring my every decision.

On the other hand, I can see why some people of both genders might be getting their Reverse Gender Discrimination axes ready to grind... but I think we have to pick and choose our Common Sense battles and Women's Safety should trump men's inconvenience / indignation.

I see nothing wrong with DriveHer. As a male, I already have options. TTC, Uber, Lyft and regular taxis. So I don't really understand what the problem is. If anything, more competition is a good thing. I don't really see a down side. Women should feel safe.

I've heard of instances where women have taken Uber Pool and guys have tried to hit on them. Guys will also get out at the same time as woman instead of their intended destination. Not good, especially if she's intoxicated. Then there was the time a friend got in an Uber and someone had ejaculated on the back of the front seat. Ew! DriveHer eliminates things like that from happening.

The other thing is Uber/Lyft are unlicensed. A taxi driver is licensed. I don't deny that some cab drivers have assaulted women but every cab has a license and the driver's info so there's clearly a way to track down a suspected attacker. This perhaps comes across a little like having your cake and eating it too. Females want the safety a licensed cab is supposed to offer but want to go with an unlicensed service to save money.

When you order an Uber, you get the driver's name, vehicle make and model, licence plate number and their rating on your phone. If you hail a cab, you don't know who you're getting. If you're assaulted, you have to remember the cab company, the car number, the name of the person driving it at that time etc.

Besides, assaults by Uber drivers are rare, compared to the hundreds of regular taxi drivers who shouldn't be on the road. According to the Star's investigation. https://www.thestar.com/news/investigations/2013/02/05/assault_drunk_driving_death_threats_the_cab_drivers_the_city_cant_get_off_the_road.html

 

[buttercup]

The Ontario Human Rights Code prohibits discrimination on the following grounds:
Race
Ancestry
Place of origin
Colour
Ethnic origin
Citizenship
Creed
Sex
Sexual orientation
Gender identity
Gender expression
Age
Marital status
Family status
Disability
The receipt of public assistance (housing only)
Record of Offences (employment only)
Reprisal (section 8)
Association (section 12)

Yep, sex is right there. It's just as illegal to advertise that your service is only available to women, as to advertise that it's only available to Christians.
But I can't see it being heavily enforced, in this case.

 

[GameBoy27]

From a safety perspective, it's understandable. But it'll be obsolete once automated vehicles take over anyway, which isn't that far off.

What's your definition of not that far off? I say 100% Autonomous vehicles are still a long, long way off. Especially in cities with snow. Still too many things to iron out. Plus the cost is going to be ridiculously expensive. But that's another topic.

 

[explorerzip]

IMO a female only gym should not exist unless a coed/male-only gym is attached/close. When I was up north, it was a Goodlife gym. I was a Goodlife member and yet would have had to travel far (say 30-40km) to use a Goodlife facility? That wasn't right.

I don't so much care about the practicalities of DriveHer and how it specifically works. From a safety perspective, I totally get it and when it comes down to it I have no real issue with females wanting female drivers. I just don't think it's right that you have a separate, stand-alone business that does this.

The other thing is Uber/Lyft are unlicensed. A taxi driver is licensed. I don't deny that some cab drivers have assaulted women but every cab has a license and the driver's info so there's clearly a way to track down a suspected attacker. This perhaps comes across a little like having your cake and eating it too. Females want the safety a licensed cab is supposed to offer but want to go with an unlicensed service to save money.

Leveling the playing field to the degree you are proposing is simply not practical. There's a big difference between what is "right" and what is practical. Having access to a gym is not a human rights issue.

 

[explorerzip]

The Ontario Human Rights Code prohibits discrimination on the following grounds:
Race
Ancestry
Place of origin
Colour
Ethnic origin
Citizenship
Creed
Sex
Sexual orientation
Gender identity
Gender expression
Age
Marital status
Family status
Disability
The receipt of public assistance (housing only)
Record of Offences (employment only)
Reprisal (section 8)
Association (section 12)

Yep, sex is right there. It's just as illegal to advertise that your service is only available to women, as to advertise that it's only available to Christians.
But I can't see it being heavily enforced, in this case.

Nothing will happen until somebody complains. Given that there are a large number of alternatives open to guys then DriveHer will likely be fine, though there could be a shit disturber out there that will cause a stink.

 

[sempel]

Leveling the playing field to the degree you are proposing is simply not practical. There's a big difference between what is "right" and what is practical. Having access to a gym is not a human rights issue.

Dunno - I think many members of the legal community would disagree, along with any women who's ever protested against male-only clubs/organizations. And I've already stated you can either cut the gym in half and have men only and female only halves or you can make it a coed gym with a small section that is female only, as is the case already in some existing Goodlife locations.

Can you explain what's the difference between this and say Augusta National? I'm sure there's plenty of other golf courses around and having access to a golf course also isn't a human rights issue.

All I'm pointing it out is a clear double standard. Something like this would not be allowed if it discriminated against anyone else based on the Human Rights Code posted. Can't say "We do not service EI's but since there's taxis/Uber/Lyft, there's other options".

 

[sempel]

I see nothing wrong with DriveHer. As a male, I already have options. TTC, Uber, Lyft and regular taxis. So I don't really understand what the problem is. If anything, more competition is a good thing. I don't really see a down side. Women should feel safe.

I've heard of instances where women have taken Uber Pool and guys have tried to hit on them. Guys will also get out at the same time as woman instead of their intended destination. Not good, especially if she's intoxicated. Then there was the time a friend got in an Uber and someone had ejaculated on the back of the front seat. Ew! DriveHer eliminates things like that from happening.




When you order an Uber, you get the driver's name, vehicle make and model, licence plate number and their rating on your phone. If you hail a cab, you don't know who you're getting. If you're assaulted, you have to remember the cab company, the car number, the name of the person driving it at that time etc.

Besides, assaults by Uber drivers are rare, compared to the hundreds of regular taxi drivers who shouldn't be on the road. According to the Star's investigation. https://www.thestar.com/news/investigations/2013/02/05/assault_drunk_driving_death_threats_the_cab_drivers_the_city_cant_get_off_the_road.html

There's no argument with the belief that women should feel safe. However, once you go down that road, what's next? I don't feel safe if the driver is black? Or I don't feel safe driving a customer who is black? Does my desire to feel safe now trump racial discrimination? These are of course hypotheticals.

I'm not denying that a woman who gets into a car with a random male she's never met before might feel unsafe. That's a given. As you've pointed out, perhaps females, especially ones traveling by themselves, should not use Uber Pool to save the extra money to avoid asshole passengers.

I don't use Uber/Lyft personally (someone else orders it) so I was not aware of the info provided so I take back that point.