explain to me Gibbons
- Thread starter samcan
- Start date
I really don't think 108 is high considering the chances at a
loss. 120 and then gone. As your aware the bullpen blew it. At least give him the seventh go to pen in 8. See where your at and
Ryan in 9.
There not making ground this way, lose tommorrow and split, back to the way it was when this party started.
loss. 120 and then gone. As your aware the bullpen blew it. At least give him the seventh go to pen in 8. See where your at and
Ryan in 9.
There not making ground this way, lose tommorrow and split, back to the way it was when this party started.
You give Burnett 121 and hes coming off surgery/
Guess my thoughts are
A: Do you want to win
B: These are the teams we are up against.
Ain't a hope in hell in getting wild card, win now and with all
costs. Sure it's July but trade deadlind is approaching fast and
can't seem them doing anything till off season.
Lilly can go further at least 7
He's capable of throwing for seven innings," Gibbons said.
From game in Texas.
Rebuttal?
Guess my thoughts are
A: Do you want to win
B: These are the teams we are up against.
Ain't a hope in hell in getting wild card, win now and with all
costs. Sure it's July but trade deadlind is approaching fast and
can't seem them doing anything till off season.
Lilly can go further at least 7
He's capable of throwing for seven innings," Gibbons said.
From game in Texas.
Rebuttal?
First off, both games were different situations. Burnett had a 3 run lead, whereas Lilly today had a 1 run lead. How many pitchers out there can hold a 1 run lead when they have over 100 pitches? Also 108 pitches can easily go to 120 within 2 batters, Torre is not a stupid manager, he will ask his batters to just work the count and tire Lilly out, so what difference would it of made had Lilly stayed on, tire himself out put men no the bases and than Gibbons forced to go to the pen. Either way the scenario was going to lead up to a bullpen change.
Gibbons is notorious for poor In Game decisions, he made a poor one with Halladay. Unlike Halladay, Lilly has gone pitched two games in the 8th inning out of 19 starts. He will consistantly give you 6 solid innings before he falls out of place. Like i said you still keep Lilly in there, you'd have to face Bernie Williams who is a very patient batter and you'd probably expect a good battle there, which means Lilly's pitch count will be up a lot higher than even he would expect.
Gibbons is notorious for poor In Game decisions, he made a poor one with Halladay. Unlike Halladay, Lilly has gone pitched two games in the 8th inning out of 19 starts. He will consistantly give you 6 solid innings before he falls out of place. Like i said you still keep Lilly in there, you'd have to face Bernie Williams who is a very patient batter and you'd probably expect a good battle there, which means Lilly's pitch count will be up a lot higher than even he would expect.
alot of people here have gotten it right...ted lilly is a 5 or 6 inning pitcher, with a notorious history of falling apart as the game goes on. from the 7th inning on, you really are taking your chances with him. the problem with lilly is, he has a limited repertoire of pitches, and by the second or third time around in the batting order, hitters usually have his pitch selection and their timing down. lilly is effective, because teams are coming off of facing halladay, and now burnett, and lilly's slower stuff throws a wrench into their timing. it doesnt last long though.
while gibbons is not the best at in-game decisions, you cannot blame him if the bullpen is not capable of doing their job. if they cannot, then it is up to JP to go out and remedy the situation, either through call-ups from the minors, or through deals. if the jays fall short of the division crown, or even the wild-card, by just 3 or 4 games, you can basically point the finger squarely at the bullpen, and their inability to do the job. only closer b.j. ryan can be excused from the group.
while gibbons is not the best at in-game decisions, you cannot blame him if the bullpen is not capable of doing their job. if they cannot, then it is up to JP to go out and remedy the situation, either through call-ups from the minors, or through deals. if the jays fall short of the division crown, or even the wild-card, by just 3 or 4 games, you can basically point the finger squarely at the bullpen, and their inability to do the job. only closer b.j. ryan can be excused from the group.
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That's the way baseball is now, Gibbons is doing what most other managers are doing, wether he believes in it or just to cover his ass by following the convention.
Why? That I can't understand. When I started watching baseball, a good starter was just getting into a groove at 100 pitches. I didn't notice the longevity of Nolan Ryan, Steve Carlton, Bert Blyleven, Jack Morris, Rick Reuschel, Bob Welch, Orel Hersheiser & Rick Sutcliffe being adversley affected from 150-200 pitch games?
What's even funnier that the age of 6-inning starts and strict pitch counts is coinciding with an era of brutal relief pitching. In the late 80's, the Reds, Giants, A's & Dodgers alone had more steady middle relievers than all of MLB today.
I simply don' t understand why you'd take out the inherintly superior pitcher in favor of guys who don't get the job done 50% of the time - in most cases, the worst case scenario with the starter would have been no worse than what the bullpen is likely to do.
Why? That I can't understand. When I started watching baseball, a good starter was just getting into a groove at 100 pitches. I didn't notice the longevity of Nolan Ryan, Steve Carlton, Bert Blyleven, Jack Morris, Rick Reuschel, Bob Welch, Orel Hersheiser & Rick Sutcliffe being adversley affected from 150-200 pitch games?
What's even funnier that the age of 6-inning starts and strict pitch counts is coinciding with an era of brutal relief pitching. In the late 80's, the Reds, Giants, A's & Dodgers alone had more steady middle relievers than all of MLB today.
I simply don' t understand why you'd take out the inherintly superior pitcher in favor of guys who don't get the job done 50% of the time - in most cases, the worst case scenario with the starter would have been no worse than what the bullpen is likely to do.
For every one of those pitchers you've named, I'm sure there are dozens of pitchers whose careers were cut short due to injury. Aside from the occasional big name like Sandy Koufax you can't really name all those other guys that could have had good/great careers because they weren't around long enough to make a name for themselves. Not every pitcher is blessed with rubber arms that bounce back outing after outing, pitch after pitch.Hard Idle said:
With what they have to pay star pitchers now it's more in the teams' interest to sacrifice a game or two by pulling the pitcher rather than risk a serious injury from overworking him over the course of several seasons. They have to protect their "investment". Times are different now. It wasn't long ago that trades were strictly made on the basis of talent. Nowadays a large percentage of trades are made for budgetary concerns and dumping salary. As the dynamics of the game change (meaning more of a big dollar business) then way the game is played and the way the teams are managed changes as well.
Seeing as there are now more teams and each team carries a larger pitching staff, there's obviously going to be more pitchers with less talent on major league rosters. As such some games are going to be decided by pitchers of inferior quality because that's all they have. Again, the teams feel it's a better choice than risking an injury to a player that's got a guaranteed muti-million dollar contract.
It's really not hard to see why pitchers are being used the way they are.
Sandy Koufax is a really bad example for a longevity guy. He started his rise to fame at age 25 and was out of the game by age 31 due to arthritis. Koufax was an okay pitcher with a career ERA over 3.00 until the Dodgers moved to Dodger Stadium (from the Coliseum). In the 5 years at Dodger stadium Koufax never reached double digits in losses and never had an ERA over 2.54. He pitched over 300 innings 3 of the last 4 years of his short career.shack said:
PS, how does a starting pitcher give up 26 homers and have an ERA of 2.04? The answer, pitch a shitload of innings.
I was trying to use him as a guy whose career was cut short due to injury, probably caused by overuse. Most other pitchers who finish early due to injury aren't as well known and that's why it's hard to cite examples.shiftee said:
Gotcha shack, I was a bit confused on which way you were going with Koufax. However, from what I understand Koufax had an arthritic ondition not connected to pitching too much.
Mark Fidrych is a guy that blew his arm real early. And almost any pitcher Billy Martin managed when he was with the A's. For a lot of guys it's not overuse, it's just really bad un fixable mechanics.
Mark Fidrych is a guy that blew his arm real early. And almost any pitcher Billy Martin managed when he was with the A's. For a lot of guys it's not overuse, it's just really bad un fixable mechanics.
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Actually I think Wood is typical of the other problen - everybody just pitching to the radar gun and wanting too much out of their arms. Wood's injuries began so early that there is no way innings could have caught up with him.stever said:
Kevin Brown is probably an example of a guy who pitched too many innings in his last couple of years with Texas and suffered wear and tear later.
I think they'd do more for the health of the pitchers if they uit truing to wring and extra 5 mph out of their arms, lat off the "supplements" and go back to good throwing mechanics.
So... when exactly was the last time you saw or heard about a 200 pitch game? In any event, without making a big deal of these ludicrous comments myself, I'll let these articles speak for themselves. They may be a more than a few years old, but they do tell the tale for the uninitiated here. The "abused" young pitchers back then, makes for an interesting comparison to where they are now.Hard Idle said:
Lastly, based on their starts in this series, it will be interesting to see how Burnett and Lily fare in their next starts, respectively.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=148
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=316
#11
Interesting article. I liked this paragraph,
"And, of course, I can't write this article without mentioning Kerry Wood. At 21, he's the youngest name on this list, and he's in the middle of the pack as far as abuse goes. He hasn't thrown more than 128 pitches in a game this year, but he has a number of outings in the 120+ range. I don't think he's in grave danger of injury - he's a big guy with good mechanics, relies on his fastball, and doesn't throw a splitter. But I do think that Jim Riggleman should take a little more care of the most prized arm of the decade."
"And, of course, I can't write this article without mentioning Kerry Wood. At 21, he's the youngest name on this list, and he's in the middle of the pack as far as abuse goes. He hasn't thrown more than 128 pitches in a game this year, but he has a number of outings in the 120+ range. I don't think he's in grave danger of injury - he's a big guy with good mechanics, relies on his fastball, and doesn't throw a splitter. But I do think that Jim Riggleman should take a little more care of the most prized arm of the decade."
Looks like another one that got away tonight. Tallett comes in and gives up 2 runs after a good start by McGowen.
Rios strikes out 4 times - why did Gibbons leave him on in the 7th to face Zito knowing he's struck out 3 times? Isn't that what his bench is for?
Very poor batting by Jason Phillips. Average around .100
Rios strikes out 4 times - why did Gibbons leave him on in the 7th to face Zito knowing he's struck out 3 times? Isn't that what his bench is for?
Very poor batting by Jason Phillips. Average around .100
