but would you break them for COOKIE dough? I know a LOT of women who will do anything for cookie dough lol.....Alexis_2 said:
Escorts, please speak up, "When men buy sex they enslave women"
- Thread starter slidebone
- Start date
So Madison, exactly why does this feminist speaker think that prositution disempowers women?? Of course......... I'm sure the person in question thinks that EVERYTHING in this society disempowers women and society has to give women the following - (insert list of three or four thousand very unlikely things here) - before women can even begin to be considered emancipated. So my question is rather silly, isn't it??
Reminds me of this dyke feminist professor I worked with who patiently explained to me once that EVERY act of heterosexual sex was a rape because women are conditioned so relentlessly to fuck guys - as opposed to dykes, I guess - that they cannot validly consent to having sex with them.
that argument sure made sense to me when I heard it........
Of course, the professor in question was pulling in over $100,000 per annum for writing papers and giving lectures to other feminists saying this type of thing. So even if she was oppressed, she was financially well off being so.
Reminds me of this dyke feminist professor I worked with who patiently explained to me once that EVERY act of heterosexual sex was a rape because women are conditioned so relentlessly to fuck guys - as opposed to dykes, I guess - that they cannot validly consent to having sex with them.
that argument sure made sense to me when I heard it........
Of course, the professor in question was pulling in over $100,000 per annum for writing papers and giving lectures to other feminists saying this type of thing. So even if she was oppressed, she was financially well off being so.
I have some hereditary, chronic health problems that have contributed significantly to my lack of success in maintaining a "real job". This has been quite demoralizing - much more than being an SP has been. In the area of personal life, it can be lonely being an escort since I do not have a life partner. Since I am an old-fashioned girl at heart, I don't think I could wrap my head around doing this work and trying to have a stable relationship. But I accepted this, have a very good friends, and take advantage of clients I "click" with to fullfil my need for closeness and "dating", though always keeping it in context.
Choosing to be an SP has benefited me financially in that I pay my own way. I am not on welfare or disabiltiy, I pay my taxes, particiapte in my community and feel like a contributing member of society, however on the fringes. I don't have the worry every day thatI may get fired because my illness has flared up, and I don't have the stress of having to decide whether to take care of my health (& likely lose my job) or clock in and jeopardize my health.
I realize many others have these same issues to deal with and do not choose SP work. Some may say I am brave to do whatever it takes to take care of what I have to; while others will call me a coward for taking the easy way out. Whatever. It's not my job in life to please others - only to take care of myself, contribute where I can & be compassionate to those around me. The psycho-analysis of "why" I choose this is not lost on me, but it is what it is.
I ahve good days & bad, like everyone. But overall, this was the best choice for me.
Those saying SP's are enslaved, like this author guy, are frankly no better than those they are condemning. They like to think we are all simple, uneducated girls who either can not think for ourselves, are victims with no control over our own destinies - like children who need their protection. That is more offensive to me than I can adequately express.
Choosing to be an SP has benefited me financially in that I pay my own way. I am not on welfare or disabiltiy, I pay my taxes, particiapte in my community and feel like a contributing member of society, however on the fringes. I don't have the worry every day thatI may get fired because my illness has flared up, and I don't have the stress of having to decide whether to take care of my health (& likely lose my job) or clock in and jeopardize my health.
I realize many others have these same issues to deal with and do not choose SP work. Some may say I am brave to do whatever it takes to take care of what I have to; while others will call me a coward for taking the easy way out. Whatever. It's not my job in life to please others - only to take care of myself, contribute where I can & be compassionate to those around me. The psycho-analysis of "why" I choose this is not lost on me, but it is what it is.
I ahve good days & bad, like everyone. But overall, this was the best choice for me.
Those saying SP's are enslaved, like this author guy, are frankly no better than those they are condemning. They like to think we are all simple, uneducated girls who either can not think for ourselves, are victims with no control over our own destinies - like children who need their protection. That is more offensive to me than I can adequately express.
I think alot of former sex trade workers would rather use the tired old "victim" route than actually admit that they made a choice to do what they did. If you twist the facts enough, we can all claim that we have been victimized in some form or another.
If I decided to become a male prostitute today because of the economic conditions, would I tell my friends/family that I entered on my own terms? I would probably say that I was forced to do it based on my financial needs.
If I decided to become a male prostitute today because of the economic conditions, would I tell my friends/family that I entered on my own terms? I would probably say that I was forced to do it based on my financial needs.
I think in this case it is all relative to the location. By our standards yes, people working in factories in china ARE slave labour: they're basically in "lock down" in the compound with barbed wire fences, operating injection moulding machines with no safety guards in place, improper ventilation, 8 workers to a 5 x 8 room, and the list goes on. If I remember from the documentary I saw, they make about $5.00 per week but if they miss their weekly quota (which is insane) they have to work for free until they catch up. In one example, the manager changed the quota to a much higher number at the end of a shift making the number of items produced, less than the new quota.....slowandeasy said:
Yes, by our standards it is slave wages but by ethiopian standards? it is heaven on earth........
I think if a person is forced to do something they don't want to sexually, its exploitation, as in children being forced to sell their bodies in impoverished countries, and the argument could be made for this. However, if someone chooses this profession, for whatever reason makes sense to them, it's their choice, the key being choice. When someone has a choice, the responsibility lies with them.
I'd hardly call a popular SP who chooses to be in this profession, making $1000 each day they decide to work exploitation.
I'd hardly call a popular SP who chooses to be in this profession, making $1000 each day they decide to work exploitation.
Any escort who makes you believe you got her to come "half a dozen" times should be getting paid full Actor's Equity scale which is quite a bit more than $250. I'd say you've been getting a good deal.tboy said:
lol well, in many cases you'd have a point but when there's a puddle on the bed, and she's quivering all over, and she can't stand up, well, I tend to believe her.....Roger Melon said:Any escort who makes you believe you got her to come "half a dozen" times should be getting paid full Actor's Equity scale which is quite a bit more than $250. I'd say you've been getting a good deal.
You've nailed it LT. Malarek's book is just that - a book - one that substantiates a common opinion, not just his. It can't be called good journalism because it's not! Good journalism examines all or as many facets of a story as it can and its author does not take editorial licence nor interject her/his own opinion. IMO, if it deserves any label, that tag should be 'propaganda.'Lasttime said:
I have more to say about this issue that I care to write down right now, most of which I have already said/written in some form or another, whether here and in other public forums.
But here are some of my thoughts on this: one of the main problem with the pro-sex work/anti-prostitution debate, like many other "hot" debates, is that it is usually discussed from a either/or perspective which doesn't allow for much nuances and contradictions. Sex workers are either represented as helpless victims in need of saving (either forced/enslaved into prostitution, or victims of "false-consciousness" who delude themselves into believing that they "chose" this line of work in order to "cope" with its inherent abuse and oppression) or as "happy hookers" who are being "empowered" by doing sex work. There is rarely any space in mainstream discussions of sex work (and in much academic discussions as well) for the voices and accounts of sex workers which would contradict, challenge, or question either of those two positions. For myself, as I have said before, I am skeptical of any accounts of prostitution which portrays women as victims-without-agency-in-need-of-saving or prostitution as the road to female empowerment through cock-sucking.
My own experience of sex work doesn't fit either of the "victim" or "empowered sex worker" categories. It also isn't possible for me to reduce my experience to the "free choice/forced prostitution" dichotomy where "choice" is understood to happen in a social vacuum devoid of power relationship and social/economic constraints. My own experience of sex work is also very much tainted by my own privilege situation: I have never been abused, I have only an addiction to cigarette and expensive shoes to cater to, I am over-educated, I have a strong social and familial support network, I do not have people to care for who depend on my income and ability to work, I can exit the sex industry fairly easily without being on the street, etc. All those things mean that I can more easily than many others make my work decisions based on my level of comfort and desire to work, rather than on the necessity and urgency to earn an income. But I think that it is dangerous to believe that my experience -- and that of other sex workers in a similar position to mine -- are representative of the majority of sex workers.
I don't believe that sex work is inherently exploitative and oppressive, as Malarek and some feminists argue. But simultaneously, I can't deny the sexism and mysogyny that is very much present in this industry. A cursory look at Terb on any given day is a testament to this: guys bitching about YMMV ("yes yes, it's her choice and all that, but shouldn't there be a limit to this?"), comparisons between the services we provide and buying a car (the very YMMV analogy is telling here), the number rating of SP's bodies, face, services, attitude, personality, etc., guys complaining about rates with comments which often scream of sense of entitlement to women's bodies, the numerous "dating advices" thread where women are being denigrated, etc.
That being said, I also didn't need to start working as an escort to be objectified as a woman, and to be treated as less than a human being. In fact, I've encountered more blatant and in-my-face sexism, mysogyny, and sexually abusive behavior in my civilian life than in my life as an escort. And when it happened in my civilian life, I certainly didn't get $250 out of it. And like others have said, I've also had many other jobs where I was treated like shit for minimum wage.
Basically, I think that any discussion of prostitution and sex work which doesn't take into consideration the larger and broader social, political, historical, and economic realities (among other things: the capitalist system and structure in which it is happening, the unequal gender and racial power relations which inform and taint the industry, the history and legacies of colonial and patriarchal relations of power which are present in our societies, and the individual and personal trajectories of those involved in the industry) is necessarily going to be limited and reductive.
For those who are interested in more nuanced and sophisticated (although not without their own limits) analyses of sex work, I suggest the following:
Wendy Chapkis. Live Sex Acts: Women Performing Erotic Labor. New York: Routledge, 1997.
Kempadoo, Kamala and Doezema, Jo. (eds.) 1998. Global Sex Workers: Rights, Resistance, and Redefinition. New York: Routledge.
Kempadoo, Kamala. (ed.) 1999. Sun, Sex, and Gold: Tourism and Sex Work in the Caribbean. Lanham: Rowman & Littlefield Publishers.
Kempadoo, Kamala. 2005. Trafficking and Prostitution Reconsidered: New Perspectives on Migration, Sex Work, and Human Rights (2005)
McClintock, Anne. 1993. “Sex Workers and Sex Work”, Special Issue of Social Text, vol. 37.
Zatz, Noah D. 1997. “Sex Work/Sex Act: Law, Labor, and Desire in Constructions of Prostitution.” Signs, vol.22, no. 2. (Winter).
But here are some of my thoughts on this: one of the main problem with the pro-sex work/anti-prostitution debate, like many other "hot" debates, is that it is usually discussed from a either/or perspective which doesn't allow for much nuances and contradictions. Sex workers are either represented as helpless victims in need of saving (either forced/enslaved into prostitution, or victims of "false-consciousness" who delude themselves into believing that they "chose" this line of work in order to "cope" with its inherent abuse and oppression) or as "happy hookers" who are being "empowered" by doing sex work. There is rarely any space in mainstream discussions of sex work (and in much academic discussions as well) for the voices and accounts of sex workers which would contradict, challenge, or question either of those two positions. For myself, as I have said before, I am skeptical of any accounts of prostitution which portrays women as victims-without-agency-in-need-of-saving or prostitution as the road to female empowerment through cock-sucking.
My own experience of sex work doesn't fit either of the "victim" or "empowered sex worker" categories. It also isn't possible for me to reduce my experience to the "free choice/forced prostitution" dichotomy where "choice" is understood to happen in a social vacuum devoid of power relationship and social/economic constraints. My own experience of sex work is also very much tainted by my own privilege situation: I have never been abused, I have only an addiction to cigarette and expensive shoes to cater to, I am over-educated, I have a strong social and familial support network, I do not have people to care for who depend on my income and ability to work, I can exit the sex industry fairly easily without being on the street, etc. All those things mean that I can more easily than many others make my work decisions based on my level of comfort and desire to work, rather than on the necessity and urgency to earn an income. But I think that it is dangerous to believe that my experience -- and that of other sex workers in a similar position to mine -- are representative of the majority of sex workers.
I don't believe that sex work is inherently exploitative and oppressive, as Malarek and some feminists argue. But simultaneously, I can't deny the sexism and mysogyny that is very much present in this industry. A cursory look at Terb on any given day is a testament to this: guys bitching about YMMV ("yes yes, it's her choice and all that, but shouldn't there be a limit to this?"), comparisons between the services we provide and buying a car (the very YMMV analogy is telling here), the number rating of SP's bodies, face, services, attitude, personality, etc., guys complaining about rates with comments which often scream of sense of entitlement to women's bodies, the numerous "dating advices" thread where women are being denigrated, etc.
That being said, I also didn't need to start working as an escort to be objectified as a woman, and to be treated as less than a human being. In fact, I've encountered more blatant and in-my-face sexism, mysogyny, and sexually abusive behavior in my civilian life than in my life as an escort. And when it happened in my civilian life, I certainly didn't get $250 out of it. And like others have said, I've also had many other jobs where I was treated like shit for minimum wage.
Basically, I think that any discussion of prostitution and sex work which doesn't take into consideration the larger and broader social, political, historical, and economic realities (among other things: the capitalist system and structure in which it is happening, the unequal gender and racial power relations which inform and taint the industry, the history and legacies of colonial and patriarchal relations of power which are present in our societies, and the individual and personal trajectories of those involved in the industry) is necessarily going to be limited and reductive.
For those who are interested in more nuanced and sophisticated (although not without their own limits) analyses of sex work, I suggest the following:
Wendy Chapkis. Live Sex Acts: Women Performing Erotic Labor. New York: Routledge, 1997.
Kempadoo, Kamala and Doezema, Jo. (eds.) 1998. Global Sex Workers: Rights, Resistance, and Redefinition. New York: Routledge.
Kempadoo, Kamala. (ed.) 1999. Sun, Sex, and Gold: Tourism and Sex Work in the Caribbean. Lanham: Rowman & Littlefield Publishers.
Kempadoo, Kamala. 2005. Trafficking and Prostitution Reconsidered: New Perspectives on Migration, Sex Work, and Human Rights (2005)
McClintock, Anne. 1993. “Sex Workers and Sex Work”, Special Issue of Social Text, vol. 37.
Zatz, Noah D. 1997. “Sex Work/Sex Act: Law, Labor, and Desire in Constructions of Prostitution.” Signs, vol.22, no. 2. (Winter).
Blah blah blah, we're all slaves to the dollar.
In my line of work, I can assure you that I have to figuratively suck a lot of cock that I'd rather not. I have to or have had to put up with working with bosses that are morons, clients who treat you like shit, abusive labour practices, and petty politics day in and day out.
It is the price I pay. It's the price we all pay.
The world doesn't give a shit.
But as to the original topic, the notion of female sex workers being exploited, it's a novel thought, but there are SPs on this board who charge 250 an hour, 350 an hour, 500 an hour and the men pay. There is not a single career out there - Doctor, lawyer, Engineer, Accountant, teacher, whatever that pays that kind of coin. (Male or female.) It's the free market baby and the free market has determined that a few square inches of hair covered triangle are worth more than what a neurosurgeon can make per hour. That's insane.
A guy will pay 300 bucks a shortened hour for the thrill of putting his cock inside a good looking woman, but would probably gag at the thought of dropping 300 bucks on a birthday present for the wife.
Pussy.
It's the most valuable commodity a woman has to offer.
In my line of work, I can assure you that I have to figuratively suck a lot of cock that I'd rather not. I have to or have had to put up with working with bosses that are morons, clients who treat you like shit, abusive labour practices, and petty politics day in and day out.
It is the price I pay. It's the price we all pay.
The world doesn't give a shit.
But as to the original topic, the notion of female sex workers being exploited, it's a novel thought, but there are SPs on this board who charge 250 an hour, 350 an hour, 500 an hour and the men pay. There is not a single career out there - Doctor, lawyer, Engineer, Accountant, teacher, whatever that pays that kind of coin. (Male or female.) It's the free market baby and the free market has determined that a few square inches of hair covered triangle are worth more than what a neurosurgeon can make per hour. That's insane.
A guy will pay 300 bucks a shortened hour for the thrill of putting his cock inside a good looking woman, but would probably gag at the thought of dropping 300 bucks on a birthday present for the wife.
Pussy.
It's the most valuable commodity a woman has to offer.
Gen, Maddy, somebody, help me out here. What is the name of that woman (or women) who said that sex INSIDE a marriage is legalized rape?
You are referring to Andrea Dworkin's work, Intercourse, published in 1987. Many of her claims in this book have been interpreted to mean that "all heterosexual sex is rape", although she and her followers deny this interpretation of her analysis of heterosexual sex, pornography, and patriarchal relationships and society.Rockslinger said:
This is likely because the media is itself uncomfortable in writing about prostitution. On 1 hand, it's a great thing to write about because sex sells newspapers and magazines.genintoronto said:
OTOH, it's a shitty thing to write about because if you write about it a lot, some people are going to start suggesting that you are in favour of it. And god knows, no self-respecting media organization or personality wants to be seen as pro-prostitution.
So the media plays a little game. They write about prostitution, but make sure they condemn it. Or they write about it and are positive, but very carefully so. They select a "politically correct" person to "support" in her choice of being a prostitute. And because all this is fake BS anyhow, the person they choose is a cartoon. The "empowered street hooker" is carefully chosen because she is "different" from the middle class woman reader, but admirable in some of her qualities. And of course, there is a ready-made feminist myth that can be safely and readily applied to the person in question.
Possibly if someone wrote and article in the Globe about how those readers' own daughters might possibly be prostitutes and how those daughters might perhaps be merely ambivalent about that choice - the way we are all ambivalent about our jobs - the result might be a little too much reader discomfort to be acceptable.
There is some truth to the notion that people are forced into exploitative work because of economic/power constraints, but it is equally true of ALL work. There are people working in hot, stuffy, unpleasant factories, doing back-breaking work, who certainly would not stay their of their own free will if they won the lottery. In fact there are very, very few people who would stay in their present jobs if they became independently wealthy.genintoronto said:
An unprivileged woman faces an array of exploitative choices (as does an unprivileged man honestly). If she chooses sex work that means that she think that is the most desirable, or least offensive, of the choices available to her. Necessarily, then, denying her the opportunity to engage in sex work means she has to fall back to her second choice, which she MUST see as more exploitative and more offensive than the sex work she would have preferred.
Next then comes a general debate about capitalism and economics: Is it possible to construct a world in which no-one faces a choice between only "exploitative" alternatives?
Economics is called the "dismal science" in part because we accept that there is scarcity in reality, and scarcity forces hard choices on people, even privileged people. Until we eliminate scarcity itself somebody somewhere will have to do something they don't like, or do without something they needed or wanted, and so on.
Maybe if we invent a race of cyborg slaves to provide for all our needs we can consider a world in which no-one faces an exploitative choice; but then again I've seen Battlestar Galactica and I know even in that world the cylons will rise up and enslave us.
At the end of the day most of us just accept as reality that some level of exploitation is inherent in life itself and really should be embraced rather than rejected.
Indeed. And this is what many sex workers have been saying for a long time.fuji said:
But I also think that the very fact that sex work is often one of the only viable (or the best) option for many women (and their family) also says a lot about both sex work and the society/economic system in which we live.
This issue also gets raised in sports as well. For example, people will simply not pay money to watch women play hockey, baseball, box, football, basketball, etc.genintoronto said:
So, to create "equality" many (all?) American universities use funds generated by male sports to subsidize female sports (same with tennis at Wimbledon). This socialistic/communist approach would be similar to Cupids asking all their escorts to put their fees in a jar and then divvy up the earnings equally. This means "Monica" who brings in a $1,000 a night will receive the same money as "Badass" who brings in nothing.
No... the correct analogy would be to take a portion of Cupid's earnings and use it to provide cheap/free male escorts to sexually inhibited but deserving women.Rockslinger said:
An interesting idea really... that sure would shake things up!
