Enbridge Gas - Tankless water Heater

[BULLRYDER]

Have any other home owners been approached about this promotion? This morning a door to door representative told me about this offer and wanted to check out my basement to see if I qualify for the free $300.00 upgrade with an incremental monthly increase of $10.00. I am suspicious because these units, Rinnai R75LSiN, range between $1,500 - $2,500.

What are your thoughts.

 

[WoodPeckr]

They are the latest and greatest, or so they claim, way to save money on heating water. The only problem is they are still expensive to buy. They are being promoted in the States also.

 

[DGrohl]

They're great. All over Europe. But it's still more expensive to rent or buy than traditional water heater / tank systems.

 

[Insidious Von]

It's water on demand, you are heating/cooling only the amount of water that you use. With a tank you are heating/cooling the volume of the tank - considerably more inefficient.

Yes it is more expensive to instal, with initial rental rates on the high side. However once the infrastructure is completed the rental rates will fall. Plus you get considerable savings in water rates and natural gas - both of which are expected to rise in cost.

 

[rafterman]

Plus its greener.

 

[kumamake]

you may wanna check with ur local municipality and see if they have any rebates for upgrading. i know someone in newmarket area got a rebate from the city.

 

[tboy]

I have yet to install one anywhere but I've been trying to get some of my customers to use them for the energy savings they supposedly offer.

From what I've read they should pay for themselves in 2 yrs but more if you use a LOT of hot water.

I have also read that even the larger high volume units cannot supply a large family when demand is high. You have to install multiple units at the various demand sites (like in an upstairs main bathroom, one to supply the downstairs powder room and kitchen etc).

This is one of those "greener" products that I feel the various governments should be subsidizing. If you install smaller units wherever the demand is, there is basically zero waste energy because you're not heating water to be left to cool in the pipes between the heater and the faucet/washer etc.

 

[papasmerf]

Do you have a link or source for that statement?
If the payback is that short a time frame I would consider installing one.

check with you local large plumbing supplier. They will be able to help you sort through the bull and the facts. One problem I have heard about them is head pressure at delivery. They also are rated in temperature rise rather than holding at a constant temp. Let us say you have a rise of 45 degrees F and your supply is delivered at 60 degrees F you have a max potential of 105 degrees F. Use 98.6 degrees F as your normal body temp for comparison.

In your case 98.6 is equal to 35 C.

 

[tboy]

Do you have a link or source for that statement?
If the payback is that short a time frame I would consider installing one.

I'll look around, a customer asked me to research it for them about a year ago. I can't remember what site it was on but if I find it again, I'll post a link.

here's one about the longevity of tankless

http://www.lower-my-energybill.com/residential-hot-water-heater.html

Here's one that states 30 - 50% savings

http://www.gotankless.com/how-tankless-works.html

So, if your energy use is about 15% of your electric bill, and the average bill is around $100.00 per month, you pay $15.00 per month to heat water, x 12 months = $180.00 per year. $180.00 divided by 2 = $90.00 per year in savings.

Now you can get Tankless water heaters anywhere from $500.00 - $1800.00, depending on your usage, and the size of the tank you buy, the amortization can take a lot longer than 2 yrs.

Something to consider is: how much you use (the more you use, the more savings you'll realize and the amortization will be shorter), whether you have to replace your current water heater (because throwing out your existing one before it is kaput is a BIG waste), and the quality of the unit you're buying compared to a similar tank water heater.

I have also read that there is some heatloss through the chimney of a gas water heater making tankless even more energy efficient and the savings even greater.....

Another thing to throw into the mix: in the winter, the heatloss via the hot water left standing in the pipes does tend to heat your house in the winter months but in the summer, it increases the load on the a/c.

What I would do is figure out what your demand is, figure out which unit will suit, figure out it's power consumption, and try to estimate your water heating costs now.

 

[hunter001]

You might want to check what your water pressure is as well. I remember hearing that you need a certian amount of pressure for the thing to operator properly.

 

[tboy]

You might want to check what your water pressure is as well. I remember hearing that you need a certian amount of pressure for the thing to operator properly.

Yeah, not only that but the flow...(aka volume). I know I could never use one in my place because at 7:30 I'm lucky to get a trickle let alone enough to have a shower.....

 

[papasmerf]

Yeah, not only that but the flow...(aka volume). I know I could never use one in my place because at 7:30 I'm lucky to get a trickle let alone enough to have a shower.....

You should think about adding a holding tank to provide you the pressure you need.

 

[cali]

Tankless not always best way to heat water

http://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/348115


Mar 22, 2008 04:30 AM
Comments on this story (1)
Steve Maxwell
Special to the Star

Last month I wrote about installing a new tank-style water heater at my house, which made more than a few people wonder why I'd opt for such antiquated technology.

All the talk these days is about the energy savings offered by tankless water heaters and their compact size. My choice seems even more bizarre when you realize that I like tankless heaters a lot. I'm convinced this technology is ideal for many homes.

Trouble is, you need to understand a few issues before spending a lot of time considering a tankless system for your own place. I know because I've wrestled with these issues several times, and they always turned out to be deal-breakers.

Tankless water heaters save energy by eliminating standby losses associated with traditional, tank-style heaters. Even with excellent insulation around the tank, energy is inevitably lost to the surrounding air over the course of time, even when you don't use any hot water. Tankless systems, on the other hand, heat water only as you demand it by turning on the tap. That's why these units are sometimes called on-demand water heaters.

At the moment there are two kinds of tankless systems on the market: electric and gas-fired. Both can work well, but the logistics of installation sometimes poses problems that aren't always easy to see ahead of time.

The big challenge faced by any kind of tankless water heater is the short time available for delivering thermal energy to the stream of cold water flowing through the unit. To be useful in a typical household, a tankless heater must be able to raise the temperature of 20 litres of water by 50C in one minute. That's a huge energy transfer, and it's the Achilles' heel of electric tankless heaters.

As electricians have told me on several occasions, my 200-amp service isn't large enough to handle the demands of a tankless electric heater along with all the other electrical loads connected to it. But even if it had been, I'd be cautious about installing an electric tankless heater because of probable changes in the way electricity will be metered.

Right now, residential customers pay only for the total quantity of electricity used, with no special premium applied to peak demand. But the huge current required by electric tankless heaters during operation is taxing on the grid, and something that the authorities will likely discourage in the future when smart metering systems are implemented.

Then there's the issue of how much hot water an electric tankless system can actually provide. For the various models I've investigated, water temperature would probably drop to lukewarm whenever more than a couple of hot water taps were turned on at the same time. Who wants that?

The huge, short-term energy demands of a tankless heater make gas a much more practical energy source than electricity. Trouble is, not all of us have convenient access to gas. I don't, and though I could've opted for a propane-fired tankless heater, that choice would have required the installation of an outdoor propane tank and supply lines. I almost considered doing this, too, then I remembered how easy it is to fix a tank-style water heater, and how troubleshooting any kind of tankless system requires a specialized technician. That did it for me.

All this said, I'm convinced that tankless water heaters are a great idea in many situations. The technology behind gas-fired systems is mature and efficient. Most units are about half the volume of a Blue Box and they operate quietly enough that they're practical to install just about anywhere. Too bad my place isn't one of them.


Steve Maxwell is technical editor of Canadian Home Workshop magazine. Visit www.stevemaxwell.ca to submit questions.

 

[Aardvark154]

As mentioned this basic technology has been used in Eastern Europe for years. Without, however, self starters or any of the other features of these units.

 

[Keebler Elf]

Be aware that water prices are expected to increase significantly in coming years. The reason? We're conserving too much!

Municipalities run the water treatment plants and the public is conserving so much water that the end result is the municipalities can't make enough money to run the treatment plants.

So you know what that means...

Price increase!!!

 

[trickyott]

I recently had a tankless system installed in my home. It is taking some getting used to.
1) You need to wait a while before getting hot water.
2) You need to have very good pressure in order to benefit from the tankless system.

I am fine for pressure, but one thing I've noticed is every tap in my home gets a different temperature of hot water. My shower isn't as hot as the bathroom sink. My clothes washer isn't as hot as the sink right beside it.

I have been told to get the really hot water you need to run it full blast all the time. My issue is (I believe) I don't have separate hot/cold taps (ie. line) to each place I'm using the hot water and this is somehow negatively affecting my pressure.

It's only been a couple of weeks so I expected some adjusting and growing pains.

I can report back when I have everything ironed out.

Tricky.

P.S. I am single so hated the idea of heating water I never used.

 

[tboy]

You should think about adding a holding tank to provide you the pressure you need.

A pressure tank with an auxiallry pump. I laughingly told a plumber that I was considering added this system to my condo and jokingly said that at peak times, some units would turn on their water and hear woooooosh as air got sucked in through their faucet because I was using up all the water via the pump.

I was joking but he said if the pressure and volume is so low on my floor, and if I am ahead of some units on the supply line, this could happen.....

I only have 2 faucets (1 with a dishwasher) and a washing machine so a tankless unit would work for me. But in a house I'd opt for much smaller units at point of use. ie: one for my upstairs bath, one for downstairs, and one for laundry in the basement. That way you have more than enough water, now would you have enough electricity to run them?

 

[papasmerf]

A pressure tank with an auxiallry pump. I laughingly told a plumber that I was considering added this system to my condo and jokingly said that at peak times, some units would turn on their water and hear woooooosh as air got sucked in through their faucet because I was using up all the water via the pump.

I was joking but he said if the pressure and volume is so low on my floor, and if I am ahead of some units on the supply line, this could happen.....

I only have 2 faucets (1 with a dishwasher) and a washing machine so a tankless unit would work for me. But in a house I'd opt for much smaller units at point of use. ie: one for my upstairs bath, one for downstairs, and one for laundry in the basement. That way you have more than enough water, now would you have enough electricity to run them?

I would use a whole house one and on gas

 

[tboy]

I would use a whole house one and on gas

but then you'd be losing energy by storing heated water in the water lines leading to the various point of use.

 

[papasmerf]

but then you'd be losing energy by storing heated water in the water lines leading to the various point of use.

Cost benefit of the loss over the cost of electric makes it do able.

Plus I would be replacing a tank heater.