Do you counsel your teenage kids about school loans?

[onthebottom]

I pay for tuition and fees and the first year of housing. I want them to have a manageable financial stake in their education.

My daughter used student loans to pay for housing for her last 3 years, she’s servicing that debt comfortably. I’ll do the same with my son.

Both kids have no other debt and have no interest in debt. They were both required to take a financial management course in middle school (public schools) in addition to our talks about how to manage money, came away with a very healthy approach to money. They both have always worked, have cushion accounts and think debt is for suckers.

 

[fall]

If you are going to pop out kids, first make sure that you have the money to look after them for their whole life if things don't go well. Don't forget that you are the only reason they have to suffer through life.

Agree 100%. working at McDonald's is not a "work ethic", it is a stupidity. Students should find summer work (even unpaid volunteering) in their proposed field and not waste time at unskilled jobs. If they cannot - look for teaching or research assistant jobs at their university, or apply for any summer research grants/positions the school offers. Yes, to find such jobs they must have high marks and working at McDonald's is not gonna help. If cannot find any skilled job - just take extra courses. And yes, if parents cannot save $300 a month for the child's education over the 22 year period - do not have kids!!!

 

[essguy_]

Agree 100%. working at McDonald's is not a "work ethic", it is a stupidity. Students should find summer work (even unpaid volunteering) in their proposed field and not waste time at unskilled jobs. If they cannot - look for teaching or research assistant jobs at their university, or apply for any summer research grants/positions the school offers. Yes, to find such jobs they must have high marks and working at McDonald's is not gonna help. If cannot find any skilled job - just take extra courses. And yes, if parents cannot save $300 a month for the child's education over the 22 year period - do not have kids!!!

I disagree completely. Like any student level experience, it’s what you made of it vs the actual work. And even if it’s in the chosen field - I don’t believe in limiting your experience especially at a young age. Further, not to sound like a McDonald’s ad - working for a large consumer oriented company IS good experience - it all depends upon how you approach it. Most have training programs, well organized policies, and a structure allowing even a burger flipper to advance. OR the student may discover that working for a big organization, or in a customer facing position is NOT for them. That’s valuable in itself.

When I hired entry level positions, what they took at University was far less important than demonstrating that they could think. As you hire more experienced employees, their background is obviously important but so are the intangibles. The entire notion that University trains you for a specific field is narrow thinking and dangerous. I did my undergrad in engineering and ended up trading bonds after my MBA. One of the legendary leaders on Bay Street and a natural born trader was the late Gordon Cheesbrough. His undergrad before being hired by McLeod Young Weir? Philosophy.

 

[essguy_]

Oh and empty nesting rocks at 42! Let me tell you.

Yeah, I’m looking forward to it in Sept. Of course they’ll be back in the summer and holidays and will always have a bedroom. But a few months at a time will be a change, for sure!

 

[james t kirk]

Agree 100%. working at McDonald's is not a "work ethic", it is a stupidity. Students should find summer work (even unpaid volunteering) in their proposed field and not waste time at unskilled jobs. If they cannot - look for teaching or research assistant jobs at their university, or apply for any summer research grants/positions the school offers. Yes, to find such jobs they must have high marks and working at McDonald's is not gonna help. If cannot find any skilled job - just take extra courses. And yes, if parents cannot save $300 a month for the child's education over the 22 year period - do not have kids!!!

I said working at McDonalds in high school. And I stand by my post.

No lazy person ever worked at McDonalds for any length of time.

And if you can't find a job in your field in the summers, then work full time at a Joe job at Mickie D's as it's better than working 12 hours a week as a research assistant or in the computer lab at the university.

One thing I fucking hate is lazy and frankly I have come across lazy and entitled all too often.

 

[fall]

I disagree completely. Like any student level experience, it’s what you made of it vs the actual work. And even if it’s in the chosen field - I don’t believe in limiting your experience especially at a young age. Further, not to sound like a McDonald’s ad - working for a large consumer oriented company IS good experience - it all depends upon how you approach it. Most have training programs, well organized policies, and a structure allowing even a burger flipper to advance. OR the student may discover that working for a big organization, or in a customer facing position is NOT for them. That’s valuable in itself.

When I hired entry level positions, what they took at University was far less important than demonstrating that they could think. As you hire more experienced employees, their background is obviously important but so are the intangibles. The entire notion that University trains you for a specific field is narrow thinking and dangerous. I did my undergrad in engineering and ended up trading bonds after my MBA. One of the legendary leaders on Bay Street and a natural born trader was the late Gordon Cheesbrough. His undergrad before being hired by McLeod Young Weir? Philosophy.

Are you sure (and same goes for James T) that you really need a University graduate working for you? It seems you'd rather have "hard working" instead of "well qualified", i.e., you are really talking about a labour force that are over-educated for these "entry" positions. What you really need is a 2-year college graduate or even a high-school graduate. The problem is that many people go to University and get education that they really do not need for their jobs instead of actually studying at school, getting FIELD SPECIFIC experience and becoming a professional. The problem with current education is that University now is what high-school was in the past. So, to have a fighting chance, one must spent time at University to study, do research, and get into a good graduate school. If their goal is to find an entry-level job after their BSc/BA degree, then, yes, flipping burgers maybe a good indicator of their "hard work". IMHO, summer jobs at Burger King is an indicator of laziness (not physical, but mental) and inability to commit to studying and working toward their goals

 

[essguy_]

Are you sure (and same goes for James T) that you really need a University graduate working for you? It seems you'd rather have "hard working" instead of "well qualified", i.e., you are really talking about a labour force that are over-educated for these "entry" positions. What you really need is a 2-year college graduate or even a high-school graduate. The problem is that many people go to University and get education that they really do not need for their jobs instead of actually studying at school, getting FIELD SPECIFIC experience and becoming a professional. The problem with current education is that University now is what high-school was in the past. So, to have a fighting chance, one must spent time at University to study, do research, and get into a good graduate school. If their goal is to find an entry-level job after their BSc/BA degree, then, yes, flipping burgers maybe a good indicator of their "hard work". IMHO, summer jobs at Burger King is an indicator of laziness (not physical, but mental) and inability to commit to studying and working toward their goals

Your thinking is way too rigid and binary. There are no set rules. Thats why your comment on working for McDonalds is literally out to lunch. When I interviewed any recent grad, education may have got them in the door, but it’s far more important to concentrate on the other factors. What they did with ANY job can be important. And University background and experience in research CAN be important but not always. Eg: How many economists do you know? All of them are usually well educated and can make a logical analysis and can speak well and have interpersonal skills. Now try to get one of them to make a market in anything. Or even a definitive call. Good at long term macro, terrible where the rubber meets the road. Yet by University background they should be a slam dunk.

 

[JackBurton]

I said working at McDonalds in high school. And I stand by my post.

No lazy person ever worked at McDonalds for any length of time.

And if you can't find a job in your field in the summers, then work full time at a Joe job at Mickie D's as it's better than working 12 hours a week as a research assistant or in the computer lab at the university.

One thing I fucking hate is lazy and frankly I have come across lazy and entitled all too often.

Right there with you. McDonalds may not be glamourous but it teaches young people how to be on time, how to be responsible, how to work as a team and how to act and react in a hot, greasy and dangerous setting safely.

Nothing wrong with that.

Kids need help from their parents to get through school, whatcwe are debating now is how much help should they get? Bravo to the parents who helped them enough so they don’t have student debt. Graduating from college or university is just the first step in a long lifetime of work. If you can do it and not spend 9 yrs paying it off, so much the better.

If you pick a bullshit degree like feminist studies then you better figure out what your plan is for after graduation for a job cause no one in the mining industry (an example field that requires a specific skill set) gives a shit if your gender is fluid or you know post modem theory. They want to know if you can handle the physical labour of prospecting in the field. That’s it. That’s where you start. Living and working in the bush until you climb the ladder.

All the more reason to hire STEM graduates.

 

[james t kirk]

Are you sure (and same goes for James T) that you really need a University graduate working for you? It seems you'd rather have "hard working" instead of "well qualified", i.e., you are really talking about a labour force that are over-educated for these "entry" positions. What you really need is a 2-year college graduate or even a high-school graduate. The problem is that many people go to University and get education that they really do not need for their jobs instead of actually studying at school, getting FIELD SPECIFIC experience and becoming a professional. The problem with current education is that University now is what high-school was in the past. So, to have a fighting chance, one must spent time at University to study, do research, and get into a good graduate school. If their goal is to find an entry-level job after their BSc/BA degree, then, yes, flipping burgers maybe a good indicator of their "hard work". IMHO, summer jobs at Burger King is an indicator of laziness (not physical, but mental) and inability to commit to studying and working toward their goals

Maybe in your field, but mine - tends to need an engineering or applied physics degree.

I look for initiative and work ethic on top of brains (cause I can't handle lazy and an entitled attitude.).

You strike me as a bit of an elitist and I suspect you are the kind of person who figures that you're having gone to university and received a degree makes you superior and you've never gotten your hands dirty in your lifetime.

I've met enough of the type to recognize what signs to look for in an interview now.

I don't care how smart you are, you are of 0 use to me if you aren't willing to work hard and pay your dues.

And here's the thing to remember....

After 2 or 3 years working in the private sector no-one, and I mean no-one cares where you went to university or how good your marks were. What counts is can you achieve goals, work well with people, the clients recognize you as capable, and you can make the company money. The fact that you may have written your thesis on whatever counts for nothing. It helped get you in the door along with your having worked a ball busting job or two along the way when you were young rather than rely solely on the Bank of Mummy and Daddy.

 

[fall]

To the last 3 posters: I guess, we are in different fields. IMHO, if a student have time to work at McDonald's, he is not putting enough effort toward working at school. If he has time to go to movies or for an active social time - he does not study enough. If he works only at office and does not take work back home with him - he is not working enough. Yes, working at McDonald's and showing "good work habit" instead of partying is a good signal to get an entry level job and start from the very bottom, but doing research projects at college, getting unpaid internships, and not wasting limited time for $15/hour jobs to show "good work ethic" to some old dudes who cannot see that studying is a much harder work than flipping burgers will get them at best grad schools and allow to start their career as associates instead of analysts. I guess, you had too much time on you hands when you were young.

 

[basketcase]

... Students should find summer work (even unpaid volunteering) ...

Unpaid volunteering doesn't pay for tuition.

Maybe in your field, but mine - tends to need an engineering or applied physics degree.
....

Don't know if it's still the same but graduating from engineering in my time required 600 h of relevant work experience (and that was before getting into the P. Eng. requirements.

I do agree that the degrees and marks are mainly useful when hiring for entry level jobs and even then I want to see something meaningful beyond academics. Beyond that it comes down to work experience, references, and certifications.

 

[basketcase]

To the last 3 posters: I guess, we are in different fields. IMHO, if a student have time to work at McDonald's, ...

I'd agree if you were talking about someone spending 5 years as a cashier or fry cook but you might be surprised what McDonald's does for their management training programs. Even in engineering work, management experience at McD's still looks good on entry level applications.

 

[fall]

I'd agree if you were talking about someone spending 5 years as a cashier or fry cook but you might be surprised what McDonald's does for their management training programs. Even in engineering work, management experience at McD's still looks good on entry level applications.

Will not argue with that: I have no knowledge about management experience at McD's. My point is: working just for the sake of earning $15/hour is a very inefficient use of a very limited resources - time. The fact that "old school" dudes consider working fixed hours with almost no mental effort and the use of learned skills as an evidence of "work ethic" may justify this experience as long as such dinosaurs are still alive. For me, if a student works just to make a few $$ at a job that has no connection to his specialisation simply tells me that he is either (1) not a good professional or (2) he is too lazy to actually use his head to find a job/internship that provides useful professional experience and/or not self-motivated enough to study on his own during the summer or bugging a large number of professors for an RA work. Of cause, if alternative to working at McD's is playing computer games, I am all for McD's. In fact, I am all for such students getting kicked out of the Universities since they will not (and do not want to) learn anything anyway.

But getting back to the "money for education" question: all Canadian students need is $10,000/year tuition and $10,000/year room and board (if not live at home). It comes to about $300/month investment that parents need to make starting at the time the child is born. If you cannot save that much money - do not have kids. Students should spend their most productive time studying and learning meaningful experience, not thinking about where to get money for the rent. If they are able to do that, they will be able to earn enough money in the future to never worry about the rent. Times have changed: graduation from University is no longer an achievement that guarantees good job, but being in the first 5% of the class and getting a graduate degree from top schools still is. so, students have a choice: bust their asses to be the best at school or live a relaxed live and work at McD's to show their "work ethic". Of cause, assuming the parents are not the asses themselves and are willing to invest in their child's future instead of telling stories of how they workers as paperboys when they were 12.

 

[Occasionally]

IMO, it can summed up like this in priority rank for students and jobs:

1. Get a paid job in a related field

2. Get a paid job in any field (McJob)

3. Volunteer work in related field

4. Volunteer work in any field

5. Sit at home and do nothing

I wouldn't value student's with related work experience too much, because the vast majoirty of grads don't have related work experience. At best, it's a Co-op term. Most likely, a kid filing papers for minimum wage.

Also, I wouldn't want any student spending all their time in school work or working. Kids need to have fun. And that includes college/university fun.

For me, it was limited as I didn't have a car and took bus and subway to school. So the fun was skewed to weekends when I could borrow my dad's car.

Looking back, living on campus would have been sweet. But at the time, it was a commute distance, so lived at home.

 

[essguy_]

Will not argue with that: I have no knowledge about management experience at McD's. My point is: working just for the sake of earning $15/hour is a very inefficient use of a very limited resources - time. The fact that "old school" dudes consider working fixed hours with almost no mental effort and the use of learned skills as an evidence of "work ethic" may justify this experience as long as such dinosaurs are still alive. For me, if a student works just to make a few $$ at a job that has no connection to his specialisation simply tells me that he is either (1) not a good professional or (2) he is too lazy to actually use his head to find a job/internship that provides useful professional experience and/or not self-motivated enough to study on his own during the summer or bugging a large number of professors for an RA work. Of cause, if alternative to working at McD's is playing computer games, I am all for McD's. In fact, I am all for such students getting kicked out of the Universities since they will not (and do not want to) learn anything anyway.

But getting back to the "money for education" question: all Canadian students need is $10,000/year tuition and $10,000/year room and board (if not live at home). It comes to about $300/month investment that parents need to make starting at the time the child is born. If you cannot save that much money - do not have kids. Students should spend their most productive time studying and learning meaningful experience, not thinking about where to get money for the rent. If they are able to do that, they will be able earn enough money in the future to never worry about the rent. Times have changed: graduation from University is no longer an achievement that guarantees good job, but being in the first 5% of the class and getting a graduate degree from top schools still is. so, students have a choice: bust their asses to be the best at school or live a relaxed live and work at McD's to show their "work ethic". Of cause, assuming the parents are not the asses themselves and are willing to invest in their child's future instead of telling stories of how they workers as paperboys when they were 12.

Fall, I’m guessing that A: You’re not a parent. And B: the binary way you think probably limits your career. It’s got nothing to do with age or “old school” - it has to do with hiring and promoting the best candidate. Sometimes that means a person who has had a well rounded life up to that point.

Let’s go beyond McDonalds, since working is just one non-Studying activity that could distract a student from what you believe is the ideal. What about athletes? Training at an elite level requires training time that can easily equal or surpass a part-time job at McDonalds. One of the keys to the modern workplace (of which you seem to have no clue) is the ability to multi-task and manage time. You seem to think University studies should require 100% focus and dedication, consuming a person’s life to the point where they cannot walk and chew gum at the same time. I’d rather see a new hire who did well, played a sport or did a lot of extra-curriculars AND worked part-time. University is NOT tough compared to many industries. When I look back at my undergrad (UofT Engineering) or even my MBA - it’s laughable that anybody would think that that was stressful or required monk-like dedication. If a person requires 100% 24/7 focus to study in University they would be ill prepared for a career on Bay St., law, even Med schools are altering their criteria for candidates (looking beyond pure academics).

You are way out of touch, IMO.

 

[Occasionally]

Fall, I’m guessing that A: You’re not a parent. And B: the binary way you think probably limits your career. It’s got nothing to do with age or “old school” - it has to do with hiring and promoting the best candidate. Sometimes that means a person who has had a well rounded life up to that point.

Let’s go beyond McDonalds, since working is just one non-Studying activity that could distract a student from what you believe is the ideal. What about athletes? Training at an elite level requires training time that can easily equal or surpass a part-time job at McDonalds. One of the keys to the modern workplace (of which you seem to have no clue) is the ability to multi-task and manage time. You seem to think University studies should require 100% focus and dedication, consuming a person’s life to the point where they cannot walk and chew gum at the same time. I’d rather see a new hire who did well, played a sport or did a lot of extra-curriculars AND worked part-time. University is NOT tough compared to many industries. When I look back at my undergrad (UofT Engineering) or even my MBA - it’s laughable that I ever thought that was stressful. If a person requires 100% 24/7 focus to study in University they would be ill prepared for a career on Bay St., law, even Med schools are altering their criteria for candidates.

You are way out of touch, IMO.

I agree.

Whether it's a new grad candidate or a vet looking for a job, there are two key components... qualifications and personality/attitude.

Someone who has the best of both will be a top choice, but most people don't cut it and lack in something compared to the top choice.

As you said, I'd rather have a well rounded person.

A bookworm likely has lousy social skills and will likely prefer to hole up at a desk and try to do everything themselves. They might be smart and do a decent job. But these kinds of people will always be seen as a hermit or outcast and makes corporate culture kind of weird. You have the down to earth people who will talk and get work done as a team. And then the quiet book smart kind of guy sits there at meetings and says nothing all hour.

And I agree about university and grad school. I did both too and found them a joke. I was also one of those "study the night before guys". Granted, I didn't take science, but business. Anyone who thinks a MBA is tough should know that getting qualified writing the GMAT is harder. Once you're in, it's basically impossible to fail unless you don't show up and do any tests or cases. As long as you arrive and complete the assignments, it's bell curved so that you can't fail. At least that's how my MBA went. They want your big time tuition and the last thing they want is to fail people, and then have failed students tell everyone to avoid the school.

Unless someone takes a very hard program with no bells curves, or simply just doesn't show up, I don't see how any nitwit can fail. Just show up, do the tests and essays, and as long as it looks like you put in solid effort the Prof or TA marking the papers will pass you.

 

[fall]

I agree.

Whether it's a new grad candidate or a vet looking for a job, there are two key components... qualifications and personality/attitude.

Someone who has the best of both will be a top choice, but most people don't cut it and lack in something compared to the top choice.

As you said, I'd rather have a well rounded person.

A bookworm likely has lousy social skills and will likely prefer to hole up at a desk and try to do everything themselves. They might be smart and do a decent job. But these kinds of people will always be seen as a hermit or outcast and makes corporate culture kind of weird. You have the down to earth people who will talk and get work done as a team. And then the quiet book smart kind of guy sits there at meetings and says nothing all hour.

And I agree about university and grad school. I did both too and found them a joke. I was also one of those "study the night before guys". Granted, I didn't take science, but business. Anyone who thinks a MBA is tough should know that getting qualified writing the GMAT is harder. Once you're in, it's basically impossible to fail unless you don't show up and do any tests or cases. As long as you arrive and complete the assignments, it's bell curved so that you can't fail. At least that's how my MBA went. They want your big time tuition and the last thing they want is to fail people, and then have failed students tell everyone to avoid the school.

Unless someone takes a very hard program with no bells curves, or simply just doesn't show up, I don't see how any nitwit can fail. Just show up, do the tests and essays, and as long as it looks like you put in solid effort the Prof or TA marking the papers will pass you.

Yes, Canadian Universities are very easy, especially if by "study" you simply mean the required coursework and not going well beyond the curriculum and doing research. I know that MBA is a joke as it is about "people skills" and not about knowledge. You cannot say it about MSc in Financial Engineering - this is a hardcore math applied to Finance. Computer science: you can take a "minimum effort" road or study hard (on your own) and start meaningful projects as soon as your second year at school. Science (any science): the possibilities of research are endless even for undergrad students. Any MSc in science, math or economics with thesis requires a lot of work and leads to a great exposure to a field. Course-based graduate degrees is a joke. Basically, there are lots of areas where the hardcore study is a must while, I guess, there are also many when communication skills are important. The question is: why spent 4 years at school to get these skills? Why not get all the required knowledge (i guess, not that much is required) at a 2-year college and learn "people skills" at manual labour job for another two years. It will be cheaper and more effective. Furthermore, getting these people out of University will allow to raising the difficulty of courses to a level when smart students will not fall asleep. If you really need employees with only a professional degree knowledge and with people skills, why do you want to hire University graduates?

 

[Occasionally]

If you really need employees with only a professional degree knowledge and with people skills, why do you want to hire University graduates?

Because only universities offer certain programs, degrees and designations. The higher and more complex career paths are at universities.

 

[essguy_]

Fall: you need to think beyond just a binary, either/or mentality. The candidate that you want is somebody who did exceptionally well academically AND had other interests. (As an aside your M.Sc. in “Financial Engineering” is a real joke. In the real world you are talking about Ph.D. level to be a quant, locked in a room working on an assigned project. If this Ph.D. has any decent people skills and ability to think AND work successfully within a particular corporate culture they will eventually be giving orders). The ideal candidate has the ability to do all. Your insistance that it is either/or shows a blinkered way of thinking that is the death of any organization looking for exceptional talent. Key word: “exceptional”.