Do clients know they are committing a criminal act?

[Dave in Phoenix]

Toronto is not enforcing they came out when C36 first became law that basically they would not enforce against consenting adults. Likewise Montreal and Vancouver.

I believe the count is now 2 wins and 1 loss in Superior Courts, but the wins were very strong that C36 violates the safety of persons provision of the Charter, just like when incalls and agencies won under the old law - outcall was legal just not bawdy houses or living off the avils. The original Superior Court Ontario female judge had one of the longest opinions in Canada at the time, making it clear being illegal made it more risky and totally rejected the friends of Court briefs from conservatives and US religious folks that it was an abuse of women.

A few years ago police stopped an escort coming to my hotel appt. This was Peel region, and their only question for the escort was if she was doing this voluntarily. No problem. We have no idea how they knew she was an escort when they pulled her over in my hotel parking lot.

 

[Dave in Phoenix]

The U.S. has a similar situation honestly with its sweeping Fosta/Sesta legislation. There are likely lots of behind the scenes deals that are unpublicized. TER was quietly allowed to be accessed again in the U.S. after withdrawing.

TER was not "allowed" to reopen. After a few years of FOSTA there had been no prosecutions of it and none last I heard. TER went offshore and is business as usual.

However, every few weeks, there are major busts and arrests of both escorts and johns. Often, it's a fake ad that John responds to and is arrested when the fake escort makes the money deal - often, John says the wrong thing on text or phone, so arrested when he arrives. I subscribe to Google weekly updates on prostitution, and it's amazing how many arrests there are. It is all under the guise of protecting from sex trafficking, but 90% is consenting adults. It is mandatory jail or perhaps a diversion program if offered in a city.

Even worse is when the female fake escorts pretend to be underage. Now it's a very serious felony. The escort cop will say in text or phone, by the way, could you get me some cigarettes on the way since I am not old enough? That becomes an easy child prostitution bust felony with potentially many years in prison. It is not entrapment the Courts have made very clear. There are many arrests at the SuperBowl and ads all over to avoid "prostitutes" since encouraging child prostitution by being a John even though it's mostly about consenting adults, but it gets the conservatives riled up since no woman in her right mind would be an escort/prostitute as it is an abuse of women.

In AZ and many states, just stating in an ad of an escort "no law enforcement" is itself evidence of intent to commit a crime. Many escorts are dumb and have that in their ads.

AZ is one of only six states with an age of consent of 18 - most states are younger - like 16, and some lower.[/QUOTE]

 

[Patron]

TER was not "allowed" to reopen. After a few years of FOSTA there had been no prosecutions of it and none last I heard. TER went offshore and is business as usual.

However, every few weeks, there are major busts and arrests of both escorts and johns. Often, it's a fake ad that John responds to and is arrested when the fake escort makes the money deal - often, John says the wrong thing on text or phone, so arrested when he arrives. I subscribe to Google weekly updates on prostitution, and it's amazing how many arrests there are. It is all under the guise of protecting from sex trafficking, but 90% is consenting adults. It is mandatory jail or perhaps a diversion program if offered in a city.

Even worse is when the female fake escorts pretend to be underage. Now it's a very serious felony. The escort cop will say in text or phone, by the way, could you get me some cigarettes on the way since I am not old enough? That becomes an easy child prostitution bust felony with potentially many years in prison. It is not entrapment the Courts have made very clear. There are many arrests at the SuperBowl and ads all over to avoid "prostitutes" since encouraging child prostitution by being a John even though it's mostly about consenting adults, but it gets the conservatives riled up since no woman in her right mind would be an escort/prostitute as it is an abuse of women.

In AZ and many states, just stating in an ad of an escort "no law enforcement" is itself evidence of intent to commit a crime. Many escorts are dumb and have that in their ads.

AZ is one of only six states with an age of consent of 18 - most states are younger - like 16, and some lower.

[/QUOTE]

TER went offshore right away, but restricted access for users accessing the site from the U.S. for a long period absent a VPN. That changed one day, and none of us know the backstory. I have read suggestions of a private agreement, but no one knows for sure.

On all my posts, I say you have to look for specifics. It isn’t safe to answer online ads from mass classified sources. Those have plenty of law enforcement ads. Currently law enforcement is taking out those ads primarily on Skipthegames. What you don’t see are law enforcement fake websites of a lady who screens, charges a lot, and has reviews on established review sites. That is basically impossible for law enforcement to fake.

If a person wants to do this safely in the U.S., he has to pay a lot of money and give up some personal information.

And pay attention to where he does this at. I have never suggested a person hobby in Arizona. Ever. I see one lady in Las Vegas who lives there and she doesn’t even like to see her regulars in Arizona unless absolutely necessary. As far as I am concerned, Arizona isn’t even part of the U.S., You simply can’t take any lesson from Arizona and apply it to any other state. There is no Due Process or any other protections in Arizona that apply to other states. Its history with sex work is the worst in the nation.

 

[drlove]

I think Toronto LE have their hands full with the constant protests etc.. That seems to be enough for them these days…

 

[Dave in Phoenix]

As far as I am concerned, Arizona isn’t even part of the U.S., You simply can’t take any lesson from Arizona and apply it to any other state. There is no Due Process or any other protections in Arizona that apply to other states. Its history with sex work is the worst in the nation.

As one who has been known and the go to person on AZ having attended or followed many trials had a private with about 1100 folks (many escorts) and testified at City Council when outlawed swing clubs (not dancing type) and new hashish in the nation strip clubs laws (dancers had to straddle chair arms not sit in laps). Not to mention all the felony busts of Agencies with 100-year Donald Advisements if they didn't take a plea.

HOWEVER, everyone had due process, including the huge bust of the Goddess Temple, which I did over 200 reports on during the 5-years of hearings and the trial. The problem is not due process but the law, especially when Ms. McCain - wife of a famous Senator, not deceased- teamed up with the Univ of AZ group, convincing everyone it was all about sex trafficking and no woman in their right mind would be an escort unless abused or trafficked - and had to be "saved." But convictions were sadly based on AZ law - there was no "due process" problem unique to AZ.

Today with turnover in Police Chiefs most of the strictest laws i.e. escort license on any ad and no body contact at strip clubs) is no longer enforced, just like FOSTA is still the law but almost no enforcement. The laws were mostly to satisfy a Christian group that helped write some of them and other conservatives.

Most but not all of the current arrests are part of the national busts that originated years ago from the Cook Cty Sheriff (Chicago) and are multi-state 3-4 times a year. I get the reports from Google monitoring the word Prostitution and Phoenix. Today Phoenix is no worse than most any other major US city. And there are now zillions of very explicit ads in Phoenix for escorts etc that are real and much lower concern for legal issues than 5-10 years ago. A small percentage are sting ads I assume. I no longer am involved in any way in Phoenix/US other than monitoring busts etc.

Most busts today are not from ads but from LE setting up stings with ads, and the customer has to specifically discuss a sex act for money in the communications by text, email or phone and is then arrested when arrives for the appointment at a hotel. Or, they get guys for underage solicitation when the undercover asks the guy to pick up some cigarettes on the way since she isn't old enough. That is how many underage busts are done with very serious felony charges when the guy doesn't get it. AZ is also one of only six states that has an age of consent of 18 - most are younger. Too bad LE doesn't seem to monitor the black web where I understand most of the real sex traffickers are and use police and Court resources (as in most of Canada) to go after real abuse, underaged and trafficking.

I was also involved in the Ninth Circuit Appeal of the CA prostitution law that if successful could be applied nationwide. It was the best briefs I have even seen (and I have read many). I even hosted the women behind the action in a meeting in my home. Sadly the prostitution law was upheld as was the appeal to the 9th circuit on the outlawing of swing clubs - I was on the Club C legal committee.

Yes the laws in the US make it more dangerous for everyone vs the Canadian cases that were won on the safety of persons portion in your Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Courts in Canada (and now police in major cities via C36 challenges) realize anti-prostitution laws are far more dangerous to safety than being legal.