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Discussion on the Downing Street Memo Public Inquiry: (no lectures no spam please)

Mcluhan

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letter con't

letter con't

That said, to give such emphasis to 100 seconds of a 3 hour and five minute hearing that included the powerful and sad testimony (hardly mentioned by Milbank) of a woman who lost her son in the Iraq war and now feels lied to as a result of the Downing Street Minutes, is incredibly misleading. Many, many different pamphlets were being passed out at the overflow room, including pamphlets about getting out of the Iraq war and anti-Central American Free Trade Agreement, and it is puzzling why Milbank saw fit to only mention the one he did.

In a typically derisive and uninformed passage, Milbank makes much of other lawmakers calling me "Mr. Chairman" and says I liked it so much that I used "chairmanly phrases." Milbank may not know that I was the Chairman of the House Government Operations Committee from 1988 to 1994. By protocol and tradition in the House, once you have been a Chairman you are always referred to as such. Thus, there was nothing unusual about my being referred to as Mr. Chairman.

To administer his coup-de-grace, Milbank literally makes up another cheap shot that I "was having so much fun that ignored aides' entreaties to end the session." This did not occur. None of my aides offered entreaties to end the session and I have no idea where Milbank gets that information. The hearing certainly ran longer than expected, but that was because so many Members of Congress persevered under very difficult circumstances to attend, and I thought - given that - the least I could do was allow them to say their piece. That is called courtesy, not "fun."
By the way, the "Downing Street Memo" is actually the minutes of a British cabinet meeting. In the meeting, British officials - having just met with their American counterparts - describe their discussions with such counterparts. I mention this because that basic piece of context, a simple description of the memo, is found nowhere in Milbank's article.

The fact that I and my fellow Democrats had to stuff a hearing into a room the size of a large closet to hold a hearing on an important issue shouldn't make us the object of ridicule. In my opinion, the ridicule should be placed in two places: first, at the feet of Republicans who are so afraid to discuss ideas and facts that they try to sabotage our efforts to do so; and second, on Dana Milbank and the Washington Post, who do not feel the need to give serious coverage on a serious hearing about a serious matter - whether more than 1700 Americans have died because of a deliberate lie. Milbank may disagree, but the Post certainly owed its readers some coverage of that viewpoint.

Sincerely,

John Conyers, Jr.

 

Mcluhan

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Anti Semitic who?

BTW Graves, correct me if i'm wrong. but doesn't the term Semit catagorically refer to an area? Are there not also Muslems, Christians as well as Jews who are Semites?
 

cyrus

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Mcluhan, I believe you are correct, the root of the word Semit comes from a family of Semitic languages that includes Hebrew and Arabic spoken by the race that consists of Jews & Arabs who were basically the natives around the eastern border of the Mediterranean Sea and North Eastern Africa including part of Greece and Italy as well as part of Slavic nations all the way down south to Ethiopia in Africa.

However the term, "Anti-Semitic" invented by German racists groups in the 19th century as propaganda for anti-Jewish prejudices against European Jews, today the use of this term has found a new meaning all to itself (i.e., Anti-Israel=Anti-Semitic.)
 
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cyrus

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Magister said:
No. It's anti-Jew. There is a distinction. One can oppose Israeli policies without being an anti-Semite.
And how would you purpose to do that? An impossible task, Zionist will eat you alive by playing the anti-Semitic race card and that almost every time shuts the people up, a very well true and tested strategy on their part!
See how this thread goes dead as we start talking about it
 
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WoodPeckr

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Magister said:
No. It's anti-Jew. There is a distinction. One can oppose Israeli policies without being an anti-Semite.
I agree with the above definition.
However many Israelis prefer the 'W' definition on this point where, 'you are either with me or against me.' Anything else is unacceptable to them and they regard you an anti-Semite for it.
 

cyrus

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By the way, I also have problem with the term of Anti-Israel, just like the term Anti-American one does not have to be anti anything to object with the certain policies!
 

K Douglas

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cyrus said:
And how would you purpose to do that? An impossible task, Zionist will eat you alive by playing the anti-Semitic race card and that almost every time shuts the people up, a very well true and tested strategy on their part!
See how this thread goes dead as we start talking about it
This thread won't go dead as long as I'm reading it. For the record I'm a Protestant, not very religious and grew up with nobody Jewish (Mississauga). I think I'm pretty objective. In my early adult years I have met a few Jewish people - from professionals to activists to holocaust survivors. Left wing, centre and right wing. I've listened to their stories, their viewpoints, I've read about the history of the Middle East and I can tell you this - no other group in the history of the world has faced such bigotry, including black Africans. It can be a subtle phrase such as "pay up stop being such a Jew" or it can be extremist like "Jews are a cancer, no wonder Hitler fried 6 million of those guys"(Ahanekew). Jewish people have existed since who knows when probably as long as any other religious group. Yet it wasn't until 1948 before they secured a homeland. During the late 1800's to pre WWII they were forced from what we now call Israel/West Bank/Gaza/Jordan and ended up in various regions from Northern Africa to Europe to Russia to the US. Always a minority wherever they were. It was due to this fact that many of them became entrepreneurial and ultimately financially successful and wealthy, they stuck together in solidarity and helped each other out. For this they were villified - by Muslims in the Middle East and North Africa; by Nazis and by segrationists and white extremists in America.
Because of what Jewish people have endured in the past (and still go through today to a lesser extent) its pretty easy to understand that Jewish people are a little more sensitive to criticism than your average citizen. Especially when you hear generalizations like Jews are running American foreign policy, Jews control the media to suit their needs or Jews are brutally oppressing the Palestinian people for no reason. I don't know how many people have said to me things like "what is it with the Jews, there must be something wrong with them because everyone has a problem with them". Not trying to be anti semitic but anti semitic nevertheless. The bottom line is that the Jews aren't "playing" the anti-semitic race card - the card has already been played a million times throughout the course of history by non Jews alike.
 

Peeping Tom

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The value of these "memos" is ... swooosh. Thanks for pointing this out, this story has no media vale and I wasn't about to waste time visiting any of the left's hatemongering sites.

Pete Graves said:
Haha, key witness says the war was a plot by Israel to dominate the world. No matter how hard libbies try to make an issue of this memo, they keep showing what a farce it is.
 

cyrus

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K Douglas said:
.....The bottom line is that the Jews aren't "playing" the anti-semitic race card - the card has already been played a million times throughout the course of history by non Jews alike.
What can I say my friend, I was truly speechless with your wisdom and understanding of the subjects of bigotry and racism in regard to Jews and non-Jews through out the history of mankind
until I’ve noticed that you, maybe by default, substituted, confused or whatever the pro-Israelis/Zionist (the words I used) with "Jews" (the word you used) in your reply as if they were interchangeable! The exact same dilemma we were discussing earlier, I hope the point is made clear!
 

Mcluhan

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Peeping Tom said:
The value of these "memos" is ... swooosh. Thanks for pointing this out, this story has no media vale and I wasn't about to waste time visiting any of the left's hatemongering sites.
In this political scenario, we have a warmongering leader, supported by a cabal of warmongering strongmen who have lied, cheated, and led their countrymen into an immoral war on the basis of ‘external threats’ when the real underlying cause was personal ambition, lust for power, political capital gain, and the greed-driven spoils of war. The fact that you and your ilk are not interested in getting at the truth and smear those who attempt to do so, as deceitful hatemongers demonstrates how 6 million Jews in the second world war could be murdered while decent people slept at night, doing nothing.

If you had any value to the human race whatsoever, you would feel shame.
 

happygrump

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Peeping Tom said:
The value of these "memos" is ... swooosh. Thanks for pointing this out, this story has no media vale (sic)...
Yet another smokescreen in a clumsy attempt to detract from the facts of the case.

Republicans, of all people, should be outraged at this manipulation of intelligence. Not only does it harm the credibility of the United States in general, it does immense harm to the Republican leadership. Why supporters of the right in the US and beyond cannot see this is astounding and, alas, monumentally sad.
 
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TOVisitor

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How soon they forget ... "it's not the sex, it's the lies.

Outrage at lies only seems to be in fashion when Dems are involved.
 

Mcluhan

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K Douglas

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cyrus said:
What can I say my friend, I was truly speechless with your wisdom and understanding of the subjects of bigotry and racism in regard to Jews and non-Jews through out the history of mankind
until I’ve noticed that you, maybe by default, substituted, confused or whatever the pro-Israelis/Zionist (the words I used) with "Jews" (the word you used) in your reply as if they were interchangeable! The exact same dilemma we were discussing earlier, I hope the point is made clear!
What is made clear Cyrus is that you may be confused as to what Zionism really means - the right of the Jewish people to take sovereignty IN (not to be confused with over) the land of Israel, a concept that I would say 99.9% of Jewish people support. So yes I will interchange pro-Israelis/Zionists/Jews as meaning one and the same. And don't get all technical and say that you don't have to be Jewish to be a Zionist (like myself for instance) because in large part we aren't the ones who feel the direct effect of anti-Semitism.
Now of course you can be critical of Israeli policy in the Middle East and not be anti-Semitic. Jews in Israel and around the globe understand that, hell many of them are critical of Israel's foreign policy. The anti-semitism card gets called when the world community (read U.N.) fixates itself on condemning Israeli actions without any condemnation of the Palestinian leadership, Syria, Lebanon etc. who are openly supporting terrorism as a means to an end - the destruction of a sovereign Jewish state. Thats the difference.
 
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