Difference btw Ford/GM and Honda/Toyota
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Health care costs are part of the picture, but Unions don't deserve the bashing. The non-Union shops pay union wages. So the labour costs are the same. (more or less) The Unions are not responsible for poor design or poor quality control.deltaforce said:
One of the reasons Honda/Toyota have better cars is technology.
Alot of the technology used in auto racing get incorporated into cars for retail market. It makes the vehicle run more efficient. Racing, the cars themselves have to meet rigid guidelines and regulations. Honda, BMW, Toyota, Benz, Ferrari. They put money into research not only for racing, but in their everyday cars too. Besides big engines, horsepower, and roll cage, what technology do cars benefit from NASCAR, compared to F1?
Alot of the technology used in auto racing get incorporated into cars for retail market. It makes the vehicle run more efficient. Racing, the cars themselves have to meet rigid guidelines and regulations. Honda, BMW, Toyota, Benz, Ferrari. They put money into research not only for racing, but in their everyday cars too. Besides big engines, horsepower, and roll cage, what technology do cars benefit from NASCAR, compared to F1?
Had a ford escort drivers seat broke just outside warrenty period-took it to dealer and found a rusted crack in the weld--ford would not even cover replacement, had a 1975 buick century-after addison on bay got me for thousands I called GMAC and told them they could have it back--finally I got some action on my repairs 1/2 covered by GM 1/2 by Addisson but I had to walk away to get anything done. I have had good luck with chrysler except for some rust and tranmissions. And not to be lenghty but if I got 75K to quit my job with no strings attached??WTF how many others get paid to quit My feeling is the whole mess is a joke, unions management and government have been so short sited on every contract it could be a deal or no deal episode but if the wrongg case was picked the govt gave you more money to subsidize overpaid buyouts in all levels
Uninformed BULLSHIT !Keebler Elf said:
I used to think the same thing. I started to buy/lease Mazdas about 16 years ago. I recently returned a Mazda Tribute when it came off lease. They make this vehcile at the same Flat Rock facility in Michigan as the Ford Explorer. The fit, finish and quality of the two vehicles are night and day. The difference is the management style and the expectations of the employees.
Also pension obligations.deltaforce said:
You cannot run a plant with union workers the same way as a non-union one. Toyota's plant in the US is the envy of the industry, one of the reasons being it's non-union. It's the stupid union rules set up for the workers that is hurting GM and others. The plants cannot be as efficent and have less productivity.
The moral of union workers suck and they lack motivation. The absentee rate runs about 10% vs 3% at non-union plants.
Outside of NA, GM is very profitable, 60% of their sales is abroad and their rep is pretty good, except for in Japan.
The Tories just gave Ford $80 million to renovate their engine plant. $80 million wouldn't cover the salaries of Ford's top dozen executives. Guys who never actually made a car, but mismanaged their company so thoroughly that it lost money on every car they had their workers build. And they get pensions in line with their paycheques. Not w/ their performance.
So tell me again how it's the workers who drove the Big3 down the tubes.
So tell me again how it's the workers who drove the Big3 down the tubes.
In my mind, it all comes down to engineering. The Japanese have a culture 100's of years old of seeking perfection in everything they do. Their vehicles are always evolving/improving on the last model. This is the 10th generation for the Corolla, and eighth generation of the Civic. You can look forward to a new improved model every 4 years or so. In contrast, the guys in Detroit engineer a new model, keep it around for 8 -10 years, and then totally re-engineer a new vehicle for the class and give it a new name.
Better product = better resale = happier customers who stay loyal = no discounts, and higher finance/lease rates
Better product = better resale = happier customers who stay loyal = no discounts, and higher finance/lease rates
Thanks
Thanks everyone for their thoughts. Glad to know that I am not the only one who is a little confused.
The opinions have been varied but overall, I believe quality of the cars is a key theme from everything I have read.
Thanks again, this has been enlightening.
Thanks everyone for their thoughts. Glad to know that I am not the only one who is a little confused.
The opinions have been varied but overall, I believe quality of the cars is a key theme from everything I have read.
Thanks again, this has been enlightening.
You're right about exec salaries and mismanagement, I won't argue with that.oldjones said:
The big three have been too generous to the execs, more so to the union workers. It's the pension obligations that are sinking GM in NA.
I believe the big three just gave up on trying to compete with the
Japanese. They couldn't build a car of equal quality at the same price
because of their higher costs. So Ford and GM focused on trucks and SUVs,
the market turned on them and now they're screwed. They can build a great
product, Ford and GM trucks prove that.
From what I've been reading lately, it's the union plants that are holding
GM and Ford back from making the changes needed to be competitive with the Japanese in regards to cars.
Just my 2 cents
It's the incompetent, overpaid mmanagers that gave the unions those contracts and then failed to design and sell the cars to pay for them. When did any of them say they were cutting their multi-million dollar salaries and pensions down to—pick a number say, half a mill—as a first step, and now they'd like the workers to take a 5% or 10% cut too?bing said:
In fact the unions gave exactly that in the last coupla contracts, management gave zero, and now whines to government for money it could readily find in the company. And the "Leave business alone, government should be small, 'cause government is bad" Tories bail them out. Big business and right-wing politics at their finest.
But aren't we all glad Flaherty let us keep our 2 cents from the GST. He might have been tempted to give away more of our money to those greedy buffoons if he had it.
But please let us in on your reading. Just what are those changes that management has been proposing and the union plants holding up that are "…needed to be competitive with the Japanese in regards to cars."?
lets seek thetruth here!!! years ago there was something called the big 3 and we all know who there were. There were the big 3 and a few others who sold imports not many, NOw look at your local car deals how many car makers are there you have like say 25 different companies making cars and the compitation is great. The playing field has just been levelled that's all. Remember Gm makes detroit deisel engines and locamotives as well.
Ok it was the workers/unions who drove the Big3 down the tubes.oldjones said:
Their all-in labour cost including benefits is significantly higher than it is for the non-unionized manufacturers so they have to scrimp somewhere to be price competitive. You are not too old to get this jones it's not that difficult.
Granted management let them do it by not being tough enough with them I agree.
Let's hope the $80 million to Ford comes with some better strings than McSquint negotiated with GM. BTW I doubt the top 12 execs in Canada at Ford make more than $2 or $3 million total. The top 3 or 4 probably average what Bud made.
oh Train is anti union!! so blame it on the Union and now the wrokers who runs the company MANAGEMENT from USA Flint Michigan. I know you think we should pay them $8.50 an hour and the production of vehicles will go up and so will sales da da. Your the same guy that hates TTC workers for the work they do too.
I think that is a very good assessment. Labour costs I don't think is the issue unless you are competing against Tata or Nanjing.Sukdeep said:
I did a factory tour of a BMW assembly plant recently and their philosophy is to make it as pleasant as possible for the assembly guys. He kept stressing that the guy on the assembly line at BMW is the most important person in the company. If a rivet is installed incorrectly because he is bored, tired, angry.... it will put a bad light on the company down the road.
So, BMW is going to eliminate all night shifts around the world by next year, it rotates workers frequently to reduce boredom, it sometimes flips the car certain ways so that the worker does not have to bend over or twist to install.
But, it shows in the price of a BMW car.
