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Dems: long knives time

Peeping Tom

Boil them in Oil
Dec 24, 2002
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I wasn't calling this election - it got so close it was frightful. The result was beyond expectations, Bush not only taking his second term but strengthening the trifecta, more R State governors. And the Supreme Court appointments, which the trifecta gives Bush a fully free hand in terms of the candidates chosen - no compromise.

I'm not going to go over the candidacy - Kerry showed who he was and that was it. More interesting was the campaign method, which the Dems fought as a total war. They pulled all the stops and despite some real problems with Bush they couldn't pull it off. Reason: the cultural clergy has lost its aura of authority. Twenty years ago this was not the case - had Rathergate, or some similar, been levied it would have ruined the candidate, with no avenues of recourse. Now, with the intarweb, it was debunked, and so rapidly, that the President didn't even bother addressing the charge.

This should be cause for concern for the Democrats. They are going to have to take out the long knives if they want to have any future prospects, in short they have to turn respectable, or face masters of the game such as Rove (we have seen the results speak for themselves). The party has to purge the lunatic left fringe and instead focus on capturing the centrist vote.

What the Dems have to do is consider the issues they support, mainly the issues that brought them a defeat.

RKBA - this one's over, the NRA won it. It is a single issue keypoint, worth enough capital to lose battleground challenges. Many Americans are at odds with the Dem's traditional morbid fascination with gun grabbing and for a centrist voter this is enough to swing over.

Sodomite marriage was an extremely poor use of political capital, given that it went after perhaps one percent of the popular vote, which was assuredly theirs already. This issue got onto 11 ballots and won on all 11, with some cases getting support in the high eighties. It had the opposite effect and possibly cost the election, as many fair weather voters were enraged enough to go to the polls and coincidentally vote for Bush at the same time. Now it will probably make it as an ammendment.

Although not an issue this time, the Dems have to dump AA as it is another of their center alienating signature policies. They could do far better supporting race neutral policy. They had better learn this before the Repubs bring out a black Presidential candidate (IMO the only chance one would have has to be R - but I disgress).

Foreign policy and security - they should forget about those, as they are a R stranglehold. Instead, they should take up an issue like UN reform, something that they would be able to play extremely well, something perfectly suited to their position as internationalists. Here, the R's don't have a chance - PNAC stand is to pull out.

Already, the Dem reaction has begun - both Kerry and Edwards conceded. For that action I had great respect. It was the right thing to do.
 

ocean976124

Arrogant American Idiot
Oct 28, 2002
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Peeping Tom said:
Sodomite marriage was an extremely poor use of political capital, given that it went after perhaps one percent of the popular vote, which was assuredly theirs already. This issue got onto 11 ballots and won on all 11, with some cases getting support in the high eighties. It had the opposite effect and possibly cost the election, as many fair weather voters were enraged enough to go to the polls and coincidentally vote for Bush at the same time. Now it will probably make it as an ammendment.
Even as someone who is against government recognition of gay marriage I would see the term "sodomite marriage" as rather insulting to homosexuals. They are people too.
As for a constitutional amendment defining marriage, I highly doubt it. It would need 2/3 of both the House and Senate and then 3/4 of the States, not likely to happen...
 

Peeping Tom

Boil them in Oil
Dec 24, 2002
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ocean - sodomite is a historical term - I have to call them something ...

As a bell weather, the 11 initiatives showed that it is quite possible to get a full ammendment.

I'm not against their activities in principle - behind closed doors, anything goes. But, when the left forwards it as another socialist excess, I get angry.
 

Peeping Tom

Boil them in Oil
Dec 24, 2002
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yych - the election was extreme in its outcome, strong R trifecta ++ SC appointments. This will hurt the left for a long time. It perhaps isn't as bad of a blowout as Mulroney's was for the C party, but it strongly indicates the need for change amongst the American left.

If they don't change, expect increased self-marginalization and an ensuing political outcome - squeegy kids aren't going to take American elections. The lunatic fringe has to go.
 

ocean976124

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Oct 28, 2002
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Peeping Tom said:
ocean - sodomite is a historical term - I have to call them something ...
You could simply use the term homosexual or gay like everyone else...
And 11 states does not a 3/4's make...
 

Cinema Face

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Mar 1, 2003
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I think Kerry was just to liberal for the average American voter. Also, he seemed "wooden." He didn't have the charm of Clinton.
As well, he didn't seem to provide a clear alternative to Bush. Mostly what I heard from the dems was alot of Bush bashing but no real alternative.
 

danmand

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2003
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Peeping Tom said:
But, when the left forwards it as another socialist excess, I get angry.
How in the bleeding world does gay marriage have anything to do with socialism, or the left for that matter?

As Seymor Hersh said, there are 75 million people in the US that does not believe in evolution. It seems some of them are posting on this board.
 

gala

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Sep 9, 2002
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peeping tom: your term is not even accurate. Are you against marriage by hetrosexuals who practice sodomy? Can I assume you support lesbian marriage? Or marriage between two gay men who don't engage in sodomy?

I think the tide of history is on the side of gay marriage. If the R's persist in opposing it, sooner or later it will wipe them out. The amendments that passed were in bible-belt states--the last bastions of the 18th century, and states which also do brilliant things like teach creationism in school.

Also, given that the election was so close I don't think it's possible to make any definitive statements about policy.

What IS the case is that the US is divided. There are bible belter states that are going to vote for the 18th century, and there are technologically savvy states that are going to vote for the 21st. The few states that are split between the bible belters and modern man are the "battleground" states, and it's only a matter of time.

Population growth in the US will similarly erode the R's support base over time, as it will inevitably lead to more congressmen. The R's enjoy support in rural areas where the ratio of congressmen to senators is quite low, giving them more electoral college votes than they deserve by population. As the number of congressmen climbs that ratio will become less significant.

I think it's sensible to interpret the 2004 election as a referendum on Bush. The race was far more a "Do you like George W. Bush, yes/no?" than it was about Kerry. By a bare majority, people said yes to Bush. That doesn't actually imply that they said no to Democrat policy. In fact, on a policy basis polling shows greater support for D over R policy--this election simply wasn't about policy, it was about George W. Bush's character, and whether he should be allowed to continue. The decision was yes, he should continue.
 

mtl_guy

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Jan 24, 2004
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its late and time for bed.

gala - your post proves you know nothing about history or politics.

you are even off on current facts. as recent as yesterday.

you say that bush barely won... ?????? not the case. this is one of the biggest spreads in recent history.
 

rama putri

Banned
Sep 6, 2004
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peelcowboy said:
Some of our posters love to use use code words for gay bashing, racism and the need to protect the right to own automatic rifles which have only one purpose; to kill people at very, very high speed.
Seems like many Americans like to use the same "code words" - Republican Party, re-electing George Bush, Patriot Act, etc...
 

ocean976124

Arrogant American Idiot
Oct 28, 2002
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gala said:
The amendments that passed were in bible-belt states--the last bastions of the 18th century,
I never really thought of Michigan, Ohio, and Oregon as "bible-belt states."
I think it's sensible to interpret the 2004 election as a referendum on Bush. The race was far more a "Do you like George W. Bush, yes/no?" than it was about Kerry. By a bare majority, people said yes to Bush.
Bush won by 3 million votes, hardly a "bare majority."
 

onthebottom

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Jan 10, 2002
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gala said:
peeping tom: your term is not even accurate. Are you against marriage by hetrosexuals who practice sodomy? Can I assume you support lesbian marriage? Or marriage between two gay men who don't engage in sodomy?

I think the tide of history is on the side of gay marriage. If the R's persist in opposing it, sooner or later it will wipe them out. The amendments that passed were in bible-belt states--the last bastions of the 18th century, and states which also do brilliant things like teach creationism in school.
I don't think Ohio is a Bible belt state. While I support Gay Marriage (or more accurately don't oppose it) I'm in the minority - in a big way in the US.

gala said:

Also, given that the election was so close I don't think it's possible to make any definitive statements about policy..
While it was close W still won by 3.5 million votes and has the first majority win since his father.

gala said:

What IS the case is that the US is divided. There are bible belter states that are going to vote for the 18th century, and there are technologically savvy states that are going to vote for the 21st. The few states that are split between the bible belters and modern man are the "battleground" states, and it's only a matter of time...
What you call Bible Belt states should really be expanded to the high growth Sun Belt states which are overwhelmingly Red and are represented by more Congressmen.

gala said:

Population growth in the US will similarly erode the R's support base over time, as it will inevitably lead to more congressmen. The R's enjoy support in rural areas where the ratio of congressmen to senators is quite low, giving them more electoral college votes than they deserve by population. As the number of congressmen climbs that ratio will become less significant.
Just the opposite, as the population ages and moves from Blue states to Red states (and the electoral votes and congressmen follow them) it will be increasingly more difficult for Democrats to win national elections. The Democrats are going to have to move to the center to win again, when they do they may find the Republicans are already there. Don't forget that the Rock Stars of the Republican party (McCain, Giuliani, the Governator) are all moderates.

gala said:

I think it's sensible to interpret the 2004 election as a referendum on Bush. The race was far more a "Do you like George W. Bush, yes/no?" than it was about Kerry. By a bare majority, people said yes to Bush. That doesn't actually imply that they said no to Democrat policy. In fact, on a policy basis polling shows greater support for D over R policy--this election simply wasn't about policy, it was about George W. Bush's character, and whether he should be allowed to continue. The decision was yes, he should continue.
I agree except for two things, it was a bit more than a "bare majority" and policy was also considered along with he character of the man.

OTB
 

red

you must be fk'n kid'g me
Nov 13, 2001
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he won. if he won by only one vote- it wouldn't matter- thats the way democracy works.
 

clipper

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Apr 4, 2002
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Lunatic Left??

The US has no "Left", let alone a"lunatic" left. Yours is an intensely Conservative nation. I seriously doubt that Kerry, had he been elected would have done anything faintly "left".

The reality is that he would have been a lame-duck president unable to overcome Republican strength in the House and Senate.

It's interesting to me that Americans bandy these code-words about, that are dripping with emotion, like "Liberal" "right wing"
"left wing" "socialist" etc when there is really no fundamental
difference in your two political parties.
 

BeaverCleaver

Member
Nov 3, 2002
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I wonder whether the Democrats tried too hard to appeal to the swing voters and other undecided types. I was actually quite disappointed that they abandoned the one-time frontrunner, Howard Dean (whom I far prefered), instead turning their attention to John Kerry hoping to pick up some moderate Republicans unhappy with Bush. Admittedly, I'm no political expert but my gut feeling is they'd have been better off having the courage of their convictions and preaching to the converted.

For example, how many Democrats who support gun control were put off by those unsettling photo ops of Kerry out duck hunting in his fatigues? It was an overt pandering to middle America and NRA types that, in my opinion, likely didn't fool anyone. Likewise, Kerry's concentration on playing up his heroic war record in an attempt to please the voters with loved ones in the military seemed rather disingenuous. Frankly, I had more respect for the young John Kerry giving testimony at the Vietnam inquiry, detailing some of the atrocities that were going on within America's troops. Considering that the same sort of shit is going on today in Iraq, most notably in the Abu Ghraib prison, I would rather see that being exposed rather than swept under the carpet. America has got to come to terms with the sad fact that there is some corruption within their military that needs to be addressed. Whistleblowers should be hailed as heroes, not reviled as shit disturbers.

However, this is my view as a Canadian; a view that I realize is lost on the more conservative American mindset. I only hope that America will oneday appreciate rather than shun "liberalism", a quality that most of we Canadians wear like a badge of honour.
 

Ryan

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Sep 5, 2001
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Peeping Tom said:


Although not an issue this time, the Dems have to dump AA as it is another of their center alienating signature policies. They could do far better supporting race neutral policy. They had better learn this before the Repubs bring out a black Presidential candidate (IMO the only chance one would have has to be R - but I disgress).
This is an excellent point.

As someone who regularly works with the wealthiest 1% of Americans, I can tell you that black millionaires are among the fiercest and most thoughtful of conservatives. They are Republicans because they choose to be, not because of what their parents believed.

Colin Powell will not run, but someday soon someone of his calibre will - and the Right will eat it up. I also think Elizabeth Dole would make an almost unstopable candidate.

Respectfully,
Ryan
 

Asterix

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Aug 6, 2002
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mtl_guy said:

you say that bush barely won... ?????? not the case. this is one of the biggest spreads in recent history.

Well, no, I wouldn't say he barely won, but it was a close election. Except for the 2000 election I'm pretty sure you'd have to go back to Carter/Ford for a closer percentage spread between the top two contenders. No viable third party candidate and the obvious fact that there are many more voters gave Bush the highest vote count ever. There have been several elections over the recent past that were landslides by comparison.
 

buffarg

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Aug 18, 2001
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Re: Lunatic Left??

clipper said:
The US has no "Left", let alone a"lunatic" left.

(my post starts here, I accidently mixed it with the 'quote')HERE HERE! I've been wanting to point that out myself. For all this talk of huge voter turnout, it was still only %60 or less. For some reason, the Americans who should be forming a Center-Left coalition are too stupid and self destructive to vote, and Bush is gonna do them,and their poor kids, with a Roto-Rooter.

My favorite line about politics is "the way to get ahead in politics is to find a movement that's going somewhere and jump in front of it". Since the best movements in the US are all on the Right, the Democrats are stuck with a bunch of stiff, overcontrolled intellectualizers and compromisers like Gore, Kerry, Dukakis, Bradley, Gebhart, Daschle etc etc, and they don't come off well on TV

this is a quoted part>The reality is that he would have been a lame-duck president unable to overcome Republican strength in the House and Senate.<

(this is mine)Doesn't 'Lame Duck' mean unable-to-run-for-reelection? He would have been faced with a hostile Senate+House and a much worse set of problems than Clinton inheritted, so if you mean Kerry would have been a weak president I agree.

Things will get a lot worse a lot faster under Bush. The HUGE issue that got strangely little play is the Supreme Court. Two of the four Dem judges are over 80, while the least conservative Repulbican (Oconner) is over 70, so Dubya will probably restructure the courts and it's no exageration to say that no civil liberty will be safe (except maybe gun ownership and the right to hide money from the IRS). The Bill of Rights pretty much means whatever the Supreme Court says it means, so Freedom of Speech, Equall Protection, the right to privacy (conservative judges claim that liberal 'Judicial Activists' just made that one up), unreasonable search and seizure, Cruel and Unusal Punishment will all be radically redefined by Dubya's judges. Dubya is an admirer of Scalia and Thomas, who are the most radical right wing moralistic bigots.

As near as I can figure, many Americans are scared and feel like the country is going downhill, and their solution is to try and make sure the people they hate get the worst of it. Note the geographical splits and the emphasis on angry, intolerant religion that tells them who to consider unworthy and undeserving.

The result is Dubya. To me he's and obvious bully and hypocrite who isn't even remotely plausible as a huckster, but I think to some extent his voters want to be lied to, They want glassy eyed simple mindedness and they certainly don't want to be on the recieving end of those punitive laws they advocate for other people; they just want them used to control poor people and women

The stupidity and denial bothers me more than the ideology ( which I disagree with in every particular). The need for an Enabler in Chief is getting us ripped off badly
 

gala

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Sep 9, 2002
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onthebottom said:
I don't think Ohio is a Bible belt state.


No? Then why do they teach creationism in their schools? Ohio certainly has pockets of enlightenment, particularly Columbus, but the rest of the state seems to me to be pretty thoroughly steeped in the Bible.

My concern with Bush really boils down to his coupling of religion and politics. I don't have any problem with his foreign policy; and while I think he ought to spend less, I don't have any big problem with his fiscal policy. But I do fear that he is determined to nail the coffin shut on scientific rationalism in America. He seems to me the sort of fellow who likes to legislate answers to scientific questions, rather than let the facts speak for themselves.

I'm also not crazy about his opposition to the use of condoms, etc., which dervies from religion. I think the US should go back to the notion that church and state ought to be separate.
 

onthebottom

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Jan 10, 2002
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Gala,

I don't think Bush couples govt and religion- but I do think his faith affects his views, but that happens with all of us.

There are many debates ongoing in the US (stem cell research, sex education, gay marriage...) That people draw their views from what they belive and their faith - I don't know how you could ask them not to.

OTB
 
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