DART uses Russian transport planes

[Ranger68]

I'm glad I'm ignoring OTB and his rantings now, but he's being quoted far too much for my taste.


Continuing the discussion, the Liberals are now backing off of a plan to add a self-sufficient brigade sized force to the military. In fact, it's not even clear they're going to add *anybody*. Nobody seems to know where the money is going to come from.
Perhaps some of that sponsorship money could have been put to use.

 

[someone]

Canada's ability to play a role in world events is eroding - it WAS a player under Trudeau in the past.

Actually Trudea wanted to get Canada out of NATO in Europe but presure from allies kept it in. To the extend Canada was a player was dispite Trudeau as he stated the downward trend. It was under Trudeau that Canada's defence spending as a percentage of GDP moved to the bottom of the NATO rankings.

 

[Ranger68]

The fact is that NO PM in the last 50 years or so has been a friend to Canada's military.
I suggest "Who Killed the Canadian Military" by Granatstein.

 

[someone]

Does Australia have similar social programs to ours or are they of the more Darwinian persuasion, like the US? And if Europe can't afford a military because of their social programs, where does that leave us? We have social programs, severe weather, a huge underpopulated land mass, endless coastline, Arctic sovereignty problems etc.
http://www.70south.com/news/1028712881/index_html

As far as I know, every developed country except the U.S. is closer to Canada, than they are to the U.S. when it comes to social programs.

Most countries in Europe do fund there militaries fairly well (much better than Canada), just not to the extent of the U.S. which I personally think spends more on defence than they should.

The fact that parts of Canada have low population densities is not really a problem as most people live in urban areas (e.g. it is not as through you have to fly teachers and doctors around the country to provide education and health care). As far as endless coastline and Arctic sovereignty is concerned, that would matter if we had a government that gave any priority to those issues (as I think that should). However, the fact is that the Canadian government gives a very low priority to those issues. We have no ice capable navel vessels and spend little on our coast card.

 

[strange1]

Australia is more like the US pre-WWII in some respects. The are very isolationist and anglo-centric. They have politicians who are blatantly anti-immigrant and anti-black/aboriginal. Essentially, to immigrate their, you need to speak english, be healthy, have an ability to get a job quickly and have money. (or at least 3 of 4) The main reason they have donated so much to the tsunami relief is to reduce the expectation of taking in non-white, non-english speaking refugees. They were active in vietnam and are loud and obnoxious compared to their kiwi neighbours.

I know I make it sound like a bad place (and it really isn't- I'm still thinking of spending significant time there) but they are the way they are. At least they are fairly hobby friendly.

 

[onthebottom]

Originally posted by yychobbyist Yawn. You deserved that OTB. Clear out your pm box by the way

Pussy ;-)

I should add spoiled to that I guess.

So, Australia has a large sparsly populated country with canuck level social programs and yet they can afford a military. But then they're not pu... Oh never mind.

Slow, I'd be interested in the artic issue.

OTB

 

[someone]

Australia is more like the US pre-WWII in some respects. The are very isolationist and anglo-centric. They have politicians who are blatantly anti-immigrant and anti-black/aboriginal. Essentially, to immigrate their, you need to speak english, be healthy, have an ability to get a job quickly and have money. (or at least 3 of 4) The main reason they have donated so much to the tsunami relief is to reduce the expectation of taking in non-white, non-english speaking refugees. They were active in vietnam and are loud and obnoxious compared to their kiwi neighbours.

I know I make it sound like a bad place (and it really isn't- I'm still thinking of spending significant time there) but they are the way they are. At least they are fairly hobby friendly.

Australia is more like the US pre-WWII in some respects. The are very isolationist and anglo-centric. They have politicians who are blatantly anti-immigrant and anti-black/aboriginal. Essentially, to immigrate their, you need to speak english, be healthy, have an ability to get a job quickly and have money. (or at least 3 of 4) The main reason they have donated so much to the tsunami relief is to reduce the expectation of taking in non-white, non-english speaking refugees. They were active in vietnam and are loud and obnoxious compared to their kiwi neighbours.

I know I make it sound like a bad place (and it really isn't- I'm still thinking of spending significant time there) but they are the way they are. At least they are fairly hobby friendly.

Australia is more like the US pre-WWII in some respects. The are very isolationist and anglo-centric. They have politicians who are blatantly anti-immigrant and anti-black/aboriginal. Essentially, to immigrate their, you need to speak english, be healthy, have an ability to get a job quickly and have money. (or at least 3 of 4) The main reason they have donated so much to the tsunami relief is to reduce the expectation of taking in non-white, non-english speaking refugees. They were active in vietnam and are loud and obnoxious compared to their kiwi neighbours.

I know I make it sound like a bad place (and it really isn't- I'm still thinking of spending significant time there) but they are the way they are. At least they are fairly hobby friendly.

I agree that there are aspects of Australian society like those you describe. I found those aspects of Australian society are especially well represented in the current national government and in Queensland society. However, I would not generalize too much. Melbourne and Sydney are very multicultural. Indeed, when I made by first trip to Sydney after living in New Zealand for about 2 years, I almost thought I was back in Toronto.

I actually found hobbying much better in NZ but than again, I had a lot more time to learn about the options than I did on brief visits to Australia.

 

[someone]

Pussy ;-)

So, Australia has a large sparsly populated country with canuck level social programs and yet they can afford a military. But then they're not pu... Oh never mind.
OTB

I actually agree with you there.

 

[islandboy]

Ya Ya. Ya. The point is that what your government does NOT do is only a reflection of the populaces priorities or your representatives would vote for a recall. So you are european in that you want others to do the work and foot the bill and then complain when these others - the US - disagrees or is overextended itself. Ya Ya Ya Keep your programs while you have them.

 

[slowpoke]

The fact that parts of Canada have low population densities is not really a problem as most people live in urban areas (e.g. it is not as through you have to fly teachers and doctors around the country to provide education and health care). As far as endless coastline and Arctic sovereignty is concerned, that would matter if we had a government that gave any priority to those issues (as I think that should). However, the fact is that the Canadian government gives a very low priority to those issues. We have no ice capable navel vessels and spend little on our coast card.

I haven't been to the Arctic but I have been as far north in Ontario as the summer roads would take me. I used to regularly sell equipment in Northwestern Ontario: Kenora, Red Lake, Sioux Lookout, Central Patricia, Pickle Crow, Fort Frances, Atikokan etc. If you travel in these remote areas, you get a sense of all the hidden dollars our provincial and federal gov'ts spend. We spend a bundle on Aboriginal housing, reservations, air ambulances, resource management etc. And the Arctic is more expensive still:

..."the Aboriginal Health Care Crisis manifests itself differently in the Inuit communities in the Arctic - the largest geographic region of Canada. Eight out of ten health care dollars are spent transporting patients to hospitals thousands of miles away. There are few doctors in the Arctic, and retaining nurses is critical. Inuit need partnerships with federal, provincial and territorial governments in order to identify Inuit solutions to improve our health."...

http://www.metisnation.ca/PRESS/release_04_aboriginal_health.html

 

[someone]

I haven't been to the Arctic but I have been as far north in Ontario as the summer roads would take me. I used to regularly sell equipment in Northwestern Ontario: Kenora, Red Lake, Sioux Lookout, Central Patricia, Pickle Crow, Fort Frances, Atikokan etc. If you travel in these remote areas, you get a sense of all the hidden dollars our provincial and federal gov'ts spend. We spend a bundle on Aboriginal housing, reservations, air ambulances, resource management etc. And the Arctic is more expensive still:

..."the Aboriginal Health Care Crisis manifests itself differently in the Inuit communities in the Arctic - the largest geographic region of Canada. Eight out of ten health care dollars are spent transporting patients to hospitals thousands of miles away. There are few doctors in the Arctic, and retaining nurses is critical. Inuit need partnerships with federal, provincial and territorial governments in order to identify Inuit solutions to improve our health."...

http://www.metisnation.ca/PRESS/release_04_aboriginal_health.html

I’ve also spent some time in the North (as a student I spent a summer working on an exploration crew in what was than the NWT). I agree that the cost of doing anything up there is very expensive. Thus on a per person basis, the cost of delivering services is going to be higher. Moreover, as a percentage of provincial/territorial GDP, federal transfers are higher for the territories than for any of the provinces. However, although the cost per person is higher, the number of people up there is much, much lower. Thus, if you check, I am sure you will find that the total absolute cost of delivering these services is a small proportion of government expenditures in Canada (I am too lazy to take the time to look up the numbers myself, so unless you present evidence to the contrary, I will stick with my position ).

You should also remember that Denmark has a smaller population than Canada and is further from Greenland. Yet, the expense of supporting Greenland does not prevent them from having a decent (for their size) military

 

[onthebottom]

It's just a weak ass excuse.

OTB

 

[slowpoke]

It's just a weak ass excuse.
OTB

Don't equate this little discussion about Australia with me making excuses for not buying better equipment. I am the one who started this thread and the one who wants our gov't to get our own military transport, better equipment etc. I am the one who (twice) posted the MP locator link so maybe a few terbites would complain to our gov't about our underfunded military.

I am the one who said:

"I still think we could use some of Martin's $10B surplus and buy our own military transport. Sure it'll sit around most of the time but you need it to train your military personnel and you need it around when it really matters. Right now Canadians are focussed on this disaster so they're more aware of the need for transport than ever before. So, politically, now would be a good time to announce that they're ordering one."

and:

"I don't expect our military to be a large, all-purpose monstrosity but we definitely need more reach. And we need better military equipment to regain our place as a preferred peacekeeping nation."

and:

"The Conservative opposition in our minority gov't has gone on record in favour of increased military spending so they'd probably have to keep fairly quiet if Martin decided to peel off a $billion or so to get some better miltary equipment. The NDP and the Bloc might squeal a bit but, with all the recent awareness of disaster relief and getting aid to the tsunami victims, this could be sold to Canadians right now."

So, OTB, WTF word didn't you understand? The Australia portion of this debate was never about any excuse. You introduced the Australia comparison. We proceeded to discuss it reasonably because it was interesting and relevant. Any questions?

 

[Ranger68]

Dude, don't let OTB rile you up. He'll never understand. He's just a big, dumb troll of an American.
And one who has no "weak ass excuse" for his country's retarded foreign policy.

 

[onthebottom]

Don't equate this little discussion about Australia with me making excuses for not buying better equipment. I am the one who started this thread and the one who wants our gov't to get our own military transport, better equipment etc. I am the one who (twice) posted the MP locator link so maybe a few terbites would complain to our gov't about our underfunded military.

I am the one who said:

"I still think we could use some of Martin's $10B surplus and buy our own military transport. Sure it'll sit around most of the time but you need it to train your military personnel and you need it around when it really matters. Right now Canadians are focussed on this disaster so they're more aware of the need for transport than ever before. So, politically, now would be a good time to announce that they're ordering one."

and:

"I don't expect our military to be a large, all-purpose monstrosity but we definitely need more reach. And we need better military equipment to regain our place as a preferred peacekeeping nation."

and:

"The Conservative opposition in our minority gov't has gone on record in favour of increased military spending so they'd probably have to keep fairly quiet if Martin decided to peel off a $billion or so to get some better miltary equipment. The NDP and the Bloc might squeal a bit but, with all the recent awareness of disaster relief and getting aid to the tsunami victims, this could be sold to Canadians right now."

So, OTB, WTF word didn't you understand? The Australia portion of this debate was never about any excuse. You introduced the Australia comparison. We proceeded to discuss it reasonably because it was interesting and relevant. Any questions?

Fair enough.... perhaps I read something into it that wasn't there - my apologies. You've been pretty clear on your thoughts.

OTB

 

[onthebottom]

Dude, don't let OTB rile you up. He'll never understand. He's just a big, dumb troll of an American.
And one who has no "weak ass excuse" for his country's retarded foreign policy.

LOL,

Man do I love being on ignore with Ranger, short young guys can be such a drag.

OTB

 

[slowpoke]

Fair enough.... perhaps I read something into it that wasn't there - my apologies. You've been pretty clear on your thoughts.

OTB

Apology accepted.

 

[onthebottom]

Originally posted by slowpoke Apology accepted.

Thanks

OTB

 

[islandboy]

I just read Ranger's comment on OTB. Even while I agree with Ranger at times, I find OTB's level of analysis and its mix of real politic to be far more interesting. Ranger's seems doctrinaire, unable to deal with or recognise valid points of discussion unless they fit his preconceived notions, bases opinions upon conpiracy et. al. theories. I keep thinking of your NDP candadate for PM. Best guy to have over for dinner; worse guy to run the country - clueless. Best if he had stayed in city council dealing with sewers, transport, water, and other local issues. He could never run a country unless there is a serious self destructive subversive element up there.

 

[onthebottom]

I just read Ranger's comment on OTB. Even while I agree with Ranger at times, I find OTB's level of analysis and its mix of real politic to be far more interesting. Ranger's seems doctrinaire, unable to deal with or recognise valid points of discussion unless they fit his preconceived notions, bases opinions upon conpiracy et. al. theories. I keep thinking of your NDP candadate for PM. Best guy to have over for dinner; worse guy to run the country - clueless. Best if he had stayed in city council dealing with sewers, transport, water, and other local issues. He could never run a country unless there is a serious self destructive subversive element up there.

Me too ;-)

LOL

OTB