Condo Shopping?
- Thread starter Keebler Elf
- Start date
Start by picking up a copy of Condo Guide which is free in boxes on many Toronto street corners. For the best deals, buy early (opening day is best) as the prices rise the longer they are on sale. The problem with that though is you have to wait a long time before you can move in. For example, I'm waiting for one to be built now. By the time it's done it'll be pretty close to 4 years from the day I signed my contract.
First rule of real estate.
Location, Location, Location.
Don't be misguided in purchasing a condo in a not so desirable area because the price is affordable. Real estate will appreciate better in the more desirable neighbourhoods of the city.
Condos are not homes with brick amd mortar but I happen to live in a condo and it's great.
To say that condos are not real estate is crazy. All I know is that I have made good money from buying and selling condos.
Two bedrooms is easier to resell but one bedrooms are in high demand as well.
Location, Location, Location.
Don't be misguided in purchasing a condo in a not so desirable area because the price is affordable. Real estate will appreciate better in the more desirable neighbourhoods of the city.
LordLoki said:
Condos are not homes with brick amd mortar but I happen to live in a condo and it's great.
To say that condos are not real estate is crazy. All I know is that I have made good money from buying and selling condos.
stang said:
Two bedrooms is easier to resell but one bedrooms are in high demand as well.
There's a glut of condos. Developers have overbuilt again, so you have plenty to choose from (unless you're looking at true hard lofts).
That said, with Toronto remaining the financial capitial of Canada and self imposed Centre of the Universe, your investment will probably be safe...if you buy in a good location.
That said, with Toronto remaining the financial capitial of Canada and self imposed Centre of the Universe, your investment will probably be safe...if you buy in a good location.
Condo's
The Condo Market in TO, over supply! Prices are heading south! Taxes, common area fees and buying a parking spot. The reason you buy condo's not enough down payment for a home. Two people working servicing a $2-300.000 mtg. Jobs go, they are renters again! Or leave town!
Bull s--t investment unless you can buy at $100.00 psft.
Then there is a chance for a good return.
The Condo Market in TO, over supply! Prices are heading south! Taxes, common area fees and buying a parking spot. The reason you buy condo's not enough down payment for a home. Two people working servicing a $2-300.000 mtg. Jobs go, they are renters again! Or leave town!
Bull s--t investment unless you can buy at $100.00 psft.
Then there is a chance for a good return.
Last edited:
eldoguy said:
What are you talking about? Where is there a downturn in the market? I think the media portrays a weak economy and in the last few years, the condo market has helped the real estate market grow steadily.
2000 sq. ft condo for 200k? Get real.
There will be practically no renters at all if that was the case.
lewd said:
Indeed, there are many condos that have been built but developers have not overbuilt.
With soaring gas prices and people relocating back to the city because of travel, time spent, etc, there is quite the demand for condos in the downtown core.
I'm looking in the west end (Mississauga/Etobicoke). Definitely not in Toronto.
It's also for living in, not (primarily) for investment.
It's also for living in, not (primarily) for investment.
Thanks, but I'm actually more interested in general tips for buying rather than specific locations. Or advice on what not to do.
Keebler Elf said:
The problem when buying a new condo is that you really have no idea what kind of condo fees they are going to charge until the building is actually built. Check if the condo corporation has a good record and what is usually kept in their reserve fund if they have other properties as well and that might give you a good idea on how they run their buildings. Your real estate lawyer will help you with all the necessary information.
If they are a first time builder, "caveat emptor".
goodtime
Travelaholic
Keebler Elf said:
Like many things, it will come down to personal choice. The prices in the heart of downtown Toronto in many new towers is approaching $1000 per square foot. Outside of Toronto, prices obviously will be lower.
Most developers will give you something relatively basic. From there it's up to your choices & budget to decide what you want to upgrade. It's fairly typical to include granite countertops, hardwood floor and stuff like that nowadays though.
You also need to get a feel for the quality of the builder both from a construction quality / fit / finish perspective and from a business sense. Minto and Tridel for example have been in the biz for a while so they know what they're doing.
A new building needs to be built obviously, then it needs to be legally registered as a condo corporation. Once it's built, you move in. But there's typically a gap between moving in and getting registered. During that gap you pay the developer "rent" for living there. Once it's registered, ownership transfers to you and you start paying mortgage. So the gap between moving in and registration is important in that it needs to be as short as possible. Builders like Minto and Tridel and probably Menkes a few others have people who do nothing but register buildings. It's their job to navigate the complexities of legal crap and municipal politics to get the building registered as soon as possible. Newer and smaller builders don't necessarily have this experience and can therefore take a while (months to even a year) to get a building registered. You should ask the developer what other buildings they have built and how long they took to get registered. The sales people will shovel some standard crap your way but be persistent and get a real answer.
Other builders have great experience building houses, but are now branching out into condos. This is fine as they have obvious building expertise, but a condo is a very different animal both structurally and legally. YMMV with these scenarios.
Also like Tangwhich says, buying early has advantages but it does tie up a significant portion of your capital for a long time. Typically condos will demand a downpayment of 20 - 25% within 180 - 360 days of signing the agreement to purchase. After that it's a waiting game for them to finish selling enough units, get funding and then build.
As for the agreement itself, unsurprisingly it's heavily slanted towards the developer. You really need to get a lawyer to go over it before you offically accept it. You typically have 10 calendar days to do this, so line up a lawyer first then sign the agreement on a Monday to maximize usable time during the 10 days.
There are certain things you can request in the agreement which the developer may or may not agree to. For example, electrical outlets will be minimal as they are standard throughout the suites. If you have a lot of electrical gear (like I do), asking for free plugs will be to your advantage as they might otherwise charge you $250 to install an extra plug. Similarly, asking for caps in the bedrooms / living area is useful. (A cap is an outlet in the ceiling for light fixtures. Even if you don't use it, it's there just in case.) You can similarly ask for hardwood flooring in a particular colour which they might otherwise consider an upgrade. Basically ask for anything that's within reason and they may say yes.
Hope this helps.
Number one thing to watch for is what the maintenance costs will be once the building is converted to a condo corporation. While many places offer "no maintenance fees for x years" when they do kick in you're suddenly hit with fees that equal or are greater than your mortgage payments.
Look for a building with amenties that you actually want. Many have health club facilities but they are one of the most underused areas in a building and many end up being coverted to other spaces.
If you're buying new, so new that the building isn't up yet, be prepared for construction delays. I've been involved in 2 developements and they were 3 yrs delayed and 2 years delayed respectively.
Yes, location for condos is no different than homes or townhouses. The better the area the better the resell (and even though you're not thinking of it as an investment, you do have to consider if you will get your money back upon selling).
Look into the developer and builder (two different entities). Make sure they have plenty of experience. For eg: Brad Lamb. He has recently moved into the developer category and was a agent up until the last 5 yrs I think.....
Make sure it will be covered under the terion warranty program.
Again on maintenance fees: be prepared for annual increases due to costs rising like: gas and electric bills, labour costs, taxes etc. Count on 10% increase per year. After about 5 yrs or so you might encounter a "special assessment" which may be needed to replace aging equipment. For eg: if the elevator breaks down and there isn't a surplus in the reserve fund. The condo board will have to get it fixed (by law) and it could amount to a couple of thou per unit. (we had to get our roof fixed and it cost each unit $1800 plus). And if you don't have the cash, the board WILL put a lien on your property and after 60 days if you don't come up with the money they will sieze your unit and sell it out from under you.
Up until about the mid 1980s condo laws were written to protect the individual owners. But that resulted in many condo corporations from going under therefore the laws were re-written to give ultimate power to the board to do whatever it takes to keep the corporation afloat. One of the side effects of this is the draconian methods they use. For eg: for the past 10 yrs my window a/c units have been fine. But last year they passed a new "rule" that said they had to meet their criteria so they have forced about 20 unit owners to remove their units and threatened them with legal action if they don't. They even went so far as to dictate what brand and models can be used. Now in many cases existing installs would be grandfathered in but with the new rules, they have the power to negate that.
One of the other problems with living in a condo is that you're really sharing your roof with x number of other people. That it and of itself may not be for everyone. This also brings up another issue: if the board decides they want a custom optic pink sculture of a kia to be erected on your front lawn, and they get 70% of your neighbours to agree, you're screwed. You MUST pay for it.
Here's another example of how it can be unfair. My building is a converted factory which is 100 yrs old this year. The windows need to be replaced as they are basically falling out. When costs are being assessed it is based (like everything else) on the square footage of your unit. If you happen to have a unit designed with hardly any windows, but a large foot print, you will pay exponentially more for the windows than you should. See, if you happen to have a unit with a small foot print, but happen to be a corner unit with a large amount of windows, you will pay less. In this case I think it should be based on the square footage of your windows, not the square footage of your unit. But that isn't the case and I had one board member grin like a cheshire cat when I brought this up because he has a lot of windows, but a really small unit so he's going to pay about 1/4 of what she should, and an owner that has a space in the basement who only has 2 tiny windows but it is 1400 sq ft is going to pay 10 times what he should.
Something else to look for: will each unit have their own heating/cooling unit or is it a central plant? The beauty of having your own heating and cooling unit is that a) you're in charge of your own piece of equipment re: maintaining it b) it is much easier to control your costs ie: if some people keep their place at minus 5 in the summer, and you keep it at 78, you'll end up paying for their wasteful ways. Same as in the winter, if there is an 80 yr old great grandmother who keeps her unit at 100, and you keep yours at a reasonable temp like 71, again, you'll end up paying for her heating costs.
I will repeat this: be careful. Make sure sharing your home with x number of other strangers is something you're prepared for. We are all indiosyncratic people and some of your roommates may have habits or ideas that are so different than yours that it will make your life miserable. (a perfect example of this is when someone on my floor let their dog take a crap in our stair way and didn't pick it up).
Look for a building with amenties that you actually want. Many have health club facilities but they are one of the most underused areas in a building and many end up being coverted to other spaces.
If you're buying new, so new that the building isn't up yet, be prepared for construction delays. I've been involved in 2 developements and they were 3 yrs delayed and 2 years delayed respectively.
Yes, location for condos is no different than homes or townhouses. The better the area the better the resell (and even though you're not thinking of it as an investment, you do have to consider if you will get your money back upon selling).
Look into the developer and builder (two different entities). Make sure they have plenty of experience. For eg: Brad Lamb. He has recently moved into the developer category and was a agent up until the last 5 yrs I think.....
Make sure it will be covered under the terion warranty program.
Again on maintenance fees: be prepared for annual increases due to costs rising like: gas and electric bills, labour costs, taxes etc. Count on 10% increase per year. After about 5 yrs or so you might encounter a "special assessment" which may be needed to replace aging equipment. For eg: if the elevator breaks down and there isn't a surplus in the reserve fund. The condo board will have to get it fixed (by law) and it could amount to a couple of thou per unit. (we had to get our roof fixed and it cost each unit $1800 plus). And if you don't have the cash, the board WILL put a lien on your property and after 60 days if you don't come up with the money they will sieze your unit and sell it out from under you.
Up until about the mid 1980s condo laws were written to protect the individual owners. But that resulted in many condo corporations from going under therefore the laws were re-written to give ultimate power to the board to do whatever it takes to keep the corporation afloat. One of the side effects of this is the draconian methods they use. For eg: for the past 10 yrs my window a/c units have been fine. But last year they passed a new "rule" that said they had to meet their criteria so they have forced about 20 unit owners to remove their units and threatened them with legal action if they don't. They even went so far as to dictate what brand and models can be used. Now in many cases existing installs would be grandfathered in but with the new rules, they have the power to negate that.
One of the other problems with living in a condo is that you're really sharing your roof with x number of other people. That it and of itself may not be for everyone. This also brings up another issue: if the board decides they want a custom optic pink sculture of a kia to be erected on your front lawn, and they get 70% of your neighbours to agree, you're screwed. You MUST pay for it.
Here's another example of how it can be unfair. My building is a converted factory which is 100 yrs old this year. The windows need to be replaced as they are basically falling out. When costs are being assessed it is based (like everything else) on the square footage of your unit. If you happen to have a unit designed with hardly any windows, but a large foot print, you will pay exponentially more for the windows than you should. See, if you happen to have a unit with a small foot print, but happen to be a corner unit with a large amount of windows, you will pay less. In this case I think it should be based on the square footage of your windows, not the square footage of your unit. But that isn't the case and I had one board member grin like a cheshire cat when I brought this up because he has a lot of windows, but a really small unit so he's going to pay about 1/4 of what she should, and an owner that has a space in the basement who only has 2 tiny windows but it is 1400 sq ft is going to pay 10 times what he should.
Something else to look for: will each unit have their own heating/cooling unit or is it a central plant? The beauty of having your own heating and cooling unit is that a) you're in charge of your own piece of equipment re: maintaining it b) it is much easier to control your costs ie: if some people keep their place at minus 5 in the summer, and you keep it at 78, you'll end up paying for their wasteful ways. Same as in the winter, if there is an 80 yr old great grandmother who keeps her unit at 100, and you keep yours at a reasonable temp like 71, again, you'll end up paying for her heating costs.
I will repeat this: be careful. Make sure sharing your home with x number of other strangers is something you're prepared for. We are all indiosyncratic people and some of your roommates may have habits or ideas that are so different than yours that it will make your life miserable. (a perfect example of this is when someone on my floor let their dog take a crap in our stair way and didn't pick it up).
Last edited:
Thanks for the tips.
Your concerns are more about living in condos in general. I've already factored all that in. Yeah, it's a communal living. So if that's not your thing than a condo probably isn't for you.
That being said...
Your concerns are more about living in condos in general. I've already factored all that in. Yeah, it's a communal living. So if that's not your thing than a condo probably isn't for you.
That being said...
eldoguy said:
You have absolutely no clue of what you're talking about. Been buying condos for over a decade, especially new ones, made great returns. I've been hearing that the condo market is heading south for about 5 years now and been laughing ever since. I understand market corrections, and that's what I expect, not a bust.
Buying a condo as an investment is not as easy as you think, there are many things to look at. If you want to be consistent and make a living at it, get educated and connected, it's a lot of hard work.
btw, the last time I saw a condo for $100/sqft was many years ago, good luck finding a garage for $100/sqft.
Don said:
That article is based on the housing market in general and across the country. It does not focus on condos, which continues to be healthy in downtown Toronto. You really have to be specific when it comes to real estate investment today, you can not generalize whatsoever, that's for economists, investors know better.
