College is a Scam

[basketcase]

All true, and all empirically demonstrated.

...

Yet some people here say they know someone who is educated and unemployed. Obviously their insignificant anecdotal evidence outweighs the statistics showing the benefits of post-secondary education. Maybe they could use some higher education


Of course their are many kids who could be happy and productive in a trade or business that are convinced that they should go to university but to say that it's a scam is ridiculous.

 

[legmann]

Yet some people here say they know someone who is educated and unemployed. Obviously their insignificant anecdotal evidence outweighs the statistics showing the benefits of post-secondary education. Maybe they could use some higher education

Anecdotal evidence is the weakest link in any empirical study.

I can give a three-hour lecture on the hazards of cigarette smoking (all empirically demonstrated and scientifically proven), and there will always be one idiot that shouts in opposition 'well, my grandfather smoked until he was 90 and nothing bad happened to him!'
Does this (weak) anecdotal evidence effectively disprove the general finding that smoking is unhealthy?

 

[FatOne]

Anecdotal evidence is the weakest link in any research-based study.

I can give a three-hour lecture on the hazards of cigarette smoking (all empirically demonstrated and scientifically proven), and there will always be one idiot that shouts in opposition 'well, my grandfather smoked until he was 90 and nothing bad happened to him!'
Does this (weak) anecdotal evidence effectively disprove the general finding that smoking is unhealthy?

There was an Ad run by the NDP talking about corp tax cuts and pointing out that a company [eletrolux?] moved to the US and suggesting that tax cuts drive companies out.
I've also seen people on Terb make very similar arguments.


OTOH I remember reading somewhere that in the US some stats office redefined the job of Blockbuster manager as a university job. I suspect, although I don't have the numbers at hand that there are a lot of university grads who have jobs that require a degree which don't actually need the skill set of the degree. In the 50's in the Air Force one could become an officer by entering with a grade 9 education, and showing some talent and effort in your electronics based trade and training. The difference is that in the 50's plenty of smart people didn't have the chance to finish high school, whereas today the only people who don't finish are wasteoids. It doesn't mean one requires the training, it is all about the signaling.

 

[basketcase]

Anecdotal evidence is the weakest link in any research-based study....

Of course. Perhaps the sardonic nature of my post wasn't clear.

 

[CapitalGuy]

DO NOT GO TO COLLEGE. I need people to clean the shit out of my cottage's septic tank and I sure as hell don't want to pay anymore than high-school diploma rates for that delightful work.

 

[gimmedub]

I used to volunteer at an "inner city" Saturday school helping teenage kids with math/science etc... when they asked why is this even useful I used to respond well you prob dont need algebra cleaning toilets in mcdonalds....

DO NOT GO TO COLLEGE. I need people to clean the shit out of my cottage's septic tank and I sure as hell don't want to pay anymore than high-school diploma rates for that delightful work.

 

[Keebler Elf]

Say whatever you want, the statistics clearly show that those with university/college degrees have better employment rates than those without.

A lot of this sounds like naysaying from people who didn't go to university/college.

 

[trod]

College/University degree shows that you can finish a long commitment and have enough discipline to not fuck it up.

Of course, there are exceptions and you can be successful without a degree but that has more risks and much harder.

 

[legmann]

in the 50's plenty of smart people didn't have the chance to finish high school, whereas today the only people who don't finish are wasteoids. It doesn't mean one requires the training, it is all about the signaling.

Good point.

Perhaps the sardonic nature of my post wasn't clear.

Maybe I need to go back to school!

I used to volunteer helping teenage kids with math/science etc... when they asked why is this even useful I used to respond well you prob dont need algebra cleaning toilets in mcdonalds....

Good arguument.

College/University degree shows that you can finish a long commitment and have enough discipline to not fuck it up.

Probably the best, and most simple, argument for obtaining a post-secondary education.

That said, I don't recommend that young people today actively choose to pursue a degree in English/Philosophy/History etc; there needs to be some consideration of what it is you want to accomplish and what benefit your particular course of study will yield in the marketplace down the road.

An additional challenge today is that with so many otherwise talented graduates unable to find work, it's more important than ever that recent grads have something to offer that differentiates themself from all of the other equally-qualified graduates vying for the same number of limited positions (i.e. some skill, volunteer work, life experience). An education is important but not necessarily sufficient on its own to secure employment today.

 

[rld]

Let's just ask fuji. If he went to college or university, we know our answer.

But would you believe his answer?

 

[HOF]

yeah screw college...i need more workers who enjoy the 9.50 cents i pay them per hour for manual labour..college gets young people thinking they deserve more for their work...

Why aren't you paying $10.25 that's the minimum wage in Ontario?

 

[blackrock13]

Why aren't you paying $10.25 that's the minimum wage in Ontario?

I guess he support the FOB crowd.

 

[nuprin001]

It depends. If you are in a program that teaches specific skills that are in demand. It will pay off.

My friend has his Bachelors in physics. He is unemployed.

Well if he only has a bachelor's degree and he's holding out for a job in physics, he's shit out of luck.

If you're entering a field like physics, you need to get a PhD at a minimum. Multiple doctorates would be helpful as well as some prestigious post-doctorate educational programs working for the right people. It's a pretty narrow field. A bachelor's in physics is the equivalent of a high school business class. It's a nice base for further education, but nobody is going to hire you based on it.

It doesn't mean one requires the training, it is all about the signaling.

This sums things up pretty well.

I've been in a position where I've hired both blue collar and white collar employees. For some jobs, even when the specific education isn't germane to the job, you require a college degree. There is simply a different outlook that you expect from employees at some jobs than from others.

 

[HOF]

Now it appears that all colleges and universities are amalgamating in various ways.

Many areas of study have become redundant, in fact they may have always been redundant. I'm going to debate which ones but do your own research.

I find that many first year post-secondary students seriously lack direction and that the first year and possibly second years to an extent are just wasting time and money. Who really knows at 18-22 years of age what they really want to do for the next 25-40 years?

Have post secondary schools become extensions of high-school corridors or food courts in shopping malls?
I say yes, but what are we going to do with them to straighten out and be productive.

When I was in high school, there were 3 levels of education:
Advanced, geared for university or college
General, geared for college or trades.
Basic, geared for trades, labour or less.

I have friends from all three levels that are very successful, and I have friends from all three that have disasterous situations.

Is education being wasted on the youth of Canada?

 

[night ride]

At one time I thought Community colleges weren't as bad as Universities until I noticed a College offering a CSI diploma when the TV program CSI was hot. Give me a break. People that dream up this sort of shit are shameless. They have no problem having someone throw away years of their life and possibly their only shot at a higher education to get a student's tuition and government funding.

 

[shakenbake]

If you're entering a field like physics, you need to get a PhD at a minimum. Multiple doctorates would be helpful as well as some prestigious post-doctorate educational programs working for the right people.

And just where would one get the time to pusue multiple doctorates? Of all the Ph.D.s and SC.D.s I have met in my life, I have known only one or two who have done 'multiple doctorates' in my lifetime. Why would any one want more than one is a mystery. A doctorate takes many years and a lot of suffering to complete. You do a doctorate and, many times, work at something completely unrelated to what you studied for your dissertation. Yes, you still stay in a general field of study. However, your interests change as does your work. This is more the rule than the exception.

Sometimes, you take your transferrable skills from your doctoral studies and you apply them to something completely unrelated. This has happened more often that one would expect it to happen. As an example, Stanton Glantz studied as an aerospace engineer and took a postdoctoral position in cardiololgy.

 

[yeet]

Everyone's situation is unique. But the higher level of education the better your odds of success.

I did a college diploma. It was utterly useless. The programs can be far too narrow and anyone with a degree
Will look down on you.

I did a bachelor of arts degree. Great education, but doesn't lead to a career. The education is far too general and every
Idiot kid seems to have one.

I did a professional degree. That was the trick. Now I make good money and have a privileged position in the marketplace and arguably society in general. Education gave me everything I now have. My education was immensely important but it only paid off because I went all the way.

 

[trod]

Probably the best, and most simple, argument for obtaining a post-secondary education.

Haha thanks.

That said, I don't recommend that young people today actively choose to pursue a degree in English/Philosophy/History etc; there needs to be some consideration of what it is you want to accomplish and what benefit your particular course of study will yield in the marketplace down the road.

I wouldn't recommend either but there are exceptions. If a person is really interested in a particular subject/area, I say go for it but make sure you are the best at it.

There are many avenues open for non traditional jobs ( that pay well ) these days but they are harder to get unless you know where to look or have a good network of friends who can give you details about a job that isn't publicly listed.

e.g If you have a degree in History with a minor in Philosophy, you can end up being hired by National Geographic to be a research assistant for a mini series. Or say HBO needs some in-house expert on history for their next production. Maybe a video game company needs you to come up with a fantasy story. And how about creating a Podcast about history which ends up being a top download on iTunes.

All of the above are not impossible today. But not easy either.

An additional challenge today is that with so many otherwise talented graduates unable to find work, it's more important than ever that recent grads have something to offer that differentiates themself from all of the other equally-qualified graduates vying for the same number of limited positions (i.e. some skill, volunteer work, life experience). An education is important but not necessarily sufficient on its own to secure employment today.

This is inevitable. Just see what the situation is like in China and India. They pump out graduates by the truckloads and the competition for even entering a good university is insane !

Being different from the herd can help as well as hurt.

 

[legmann]

I did a college diploma. It was utterly useless. The programs can be far too narrow and anyone with a degree
Will look down on you.

I did a bachelor of arts degree. Great education, but doesn't lead to a career. The education is far too general

Both true to an extent. An old adage: 'Go to university, get an education; go to college, get a job'.

College can be immensely useful today in immediate job placement, but as you've pointed out, the education itself can be too-narrowly focused for gaining employment in other, non-related fields.

University degrees are often too general, but they can prepare you for any number of career otions after graduation and in the future (as well as graduate study), and that, in part, is the point.


An effective (but expensive) route today is a university degree followed either by focused college education (i.e. certificate, post-grad diploma) or a Master's/professional degree.

 

[desert monk]

I got a ba honors at a time when I had no idea what I wanted to do. I also had no famiy or parental guidance, or any other help unfortunately... When I was done I had pretty much decided that university was a waste of time for the most part, and I didn't want to do another degree. I got into the pipefitter's union and entered into an apprenticeship program... Long story short, I have a house paid off, stocks and savings, and I make well over $100k at it.... I don't know if I want to be in the industry forever, but I'm doubt I will go back to university. My friend was telling me I should get my mba, and I could work on the business side at a company but again, I've had people tell me an mba doesn't even teach you anything. All I know for sure is that university/college education is starting to get a shake up, and is going to need to change to fit the times.