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Chinese Medal of Honour Picture (off topic)

jwmorrice

Gentleman by Profession
Jun 30, 2003
7,133
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In the laboratory.
Mystery solved!

Nic Frenchy said:
Let's not get carried away and off Topic Here.....OK ?

So WHO the F*ck is TIA ???? :D
Taiwanese Intelligence Agency.

jwm
 

zog

Friendly Arrogant Bastard
Dec 25, 2002
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...or...

anon1 said:
The same as the number of Iraqi wedding party members, or Somali villagers.
...or Canadian training troops...
Sheik said:
I just corrected the tag line for this post....
You might want to further correct it by changing "off topic" to "no topic".

Zog.
 

TravellingGuy

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May 22, 2002
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red said:
I thought the trials at Nuremberg would have taken care of the idea that soldiers are only following orders. and with respect sir, the leadership of the U.S. cannot honestly be compared with the communist party of china.
Well it wouldn't be an exact comparison, but there's similarities, and then there are ways where the US leadership is worse/ or just as bad in different ways.

When the US starts obey international law and allows their soldiers, generals (and perhaps Presidents) to be judged under international law, then maybe we'd see some more comparisons. Fact is, when you are the Big Dog you set the rules, and although they may be seen as the Fighters for Freedom now, they may be viewed by the next Big Dog as nothing better/worse than the communists of old.
 

jwmorrice

Gentleman by Profession
Jun 30, 2003
7,133
1
0
In the laboratory.
Penetrating TIA!

grooverider said:
Once you've penetrated, is it good?
Yes grooverider, can be very, very sweet. Rewards may flow like nectar from flower. Need to be hard and stay in groove. But this difficult. Must always be looking over shoulder for men and women of TIA. They always on lookout for things that are fishy. Good luck my son, if you try to penetrate TIA. :p

jwm
 

jwmorrice

Gentleman by Profession
Jun 30, 2003
7,133
1
0
In the laboratory.
Thousand pardons

Must beg forgiveness of honourable dudelove for pain caused. Tongue in cheek like bird in nest. Sometimes very difficult to see. :p

jwm
 

jwmorrice

Gentleman by Profession
Jun 30, 2003
7,133
1
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In the laboratory.
CIA

Originally quoted by dudelove:
"The bottom line is the Chinese intelligence agencies are (sic!) no way cut the grade compared to the superb agencies like the Mossad or the CIA or the FSB or the MI6."
Even after the Iraq 'weapons of mass destruction' fiascos and the lack of intelligence on World Trade Centre attack you would maintain this? The reasoning would be interesting to hear.

jwm
 

dudelove

Senior Member
Sep 3, 2003
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For WMD in Iraq, many Americans realize that when bubba wants to get that SOB, the end justisfy its means. Does it really matter whether the CIA indeed protest the source of the intelligence, such as the allegations that there is ties between Saddam and al-Qaida or the capability of Iraq's WMD?

The bottom line is Bubba only listens selectively to the daily briefings by the CIA at the white house. His main concern is sanctioning infinite justice to that SOB who dared to harm the Sr. and mocked him as Jr., a nobody living under the Sr. shadow.

As far as the Sept 11 attack is concern, I would advise you to watch Frontline at PBS on the episode called the man who knew. That heinous, terrorist attack only happened with the usual petty recrimination and communication between the FBI and the CIA. Plus, there are a couple of books written by Robert Baer critisizing how the CIA nowadays are too "nice" to play this dirty game of tit and tat and how the Americans are still in denial of people hating Americans just because of what they stands for.

My stand on Chinese intelligence agencies still stands since those agencies can only achieve the not so hard objectives by sheer numbers of people swarming to the United States under the cover of visa students, visiting scholars and even aliens. They just saturate the ability for the FBI counterintelligence systems to monitor each and every individuals.

Maybe nowadays it's getting better since they can use tonnes of hard US currencies they earn from legit trades to "buy" intelligences or "win" the hearts and minds of the "Gwai Lo". Plus, the Americans are too indulged on themselves and there are always chronic shortages of agents that mastered the basic Chinese languages, let alone knowing the modus oparendi of the Chinese intelligence agencies.
 

jwmorrice

Gentleman by Profession
Jun 30, 2003
7,133
1
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In the laboratory.
So I gather that your assessment of whether the CIA is a superb spy agency is a definite 'maybe'? :p

jwm
 

dudelove

Senior Member
Sep 3, 2003
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"Maybe" since the CIA and the sister agency NSA have all the gadgets money can buy. They can see and listen to everything, anything they want. Problem is the intelligences are so much that they have a hard time to decipher. The lack of adequate numbers of analysts to analyse the messages don't help either.

Plus, the tangos aren't necessarily technologically dependent and they sometimes would rather use "ancient" methods to transmit messages to evade the survillances.

On balance, the Mossad is arguably the best.
 

zog

Friendly Arrogant Bastard
Dec 25, 2002
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Interesting...

red said:
the leadership of the U.S. cannot honestly be compared with the communist party of china.
Why not? In what meaningful way are they different?

The only difference I can think of is that the Chinese government did not try to blame a neighbouring nation for SARS while the US had no trouble trying to implicate Canada for their own BSE issues.

On second thought, you're right. The US government lacks the integrity to stand comparison to the Chinese.

Zog.
 

pool

pure evil
Aug 20, 2001
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With all due respect to Anon1, I understand that you are only insinuating a parallel between honor [or lack there of] in the different situations, and although I do agree there is some validity to it on some level, I do not feel it can be a direct parallel in the overall picture.

I don't think it's fair to compare the soldiers in Iraq to those who invaded Tibet in terms of honor, regardless of how misguided they may be in their individual "causes". The deliberate atrocities carried out against Tibetan people during the "take over" and which have continued in some form over the years, particularly toward Buddhist monks and nuns, is nothing to warrant any form of respect or honor. As much as I may question the attack on Iraq and the motivation, most of the innocents killed were not intentional. To me there is no acceptable loss in innocent lives in war, and how they are killed still produces the same result. However there is a difference between the motivations and the way people lost their lives in the different scenarios.

I suppose it boils down to a case of what we deem to be honourable. Without dissecting the possibilities of a soldiers individual definition of what he feels is honourable, in the end medals of honor are bestowed up them according to what those in higher ranks and their culture defines as being honourable. From my perspective, I don't see taking another humans life, regardless, of the outcome and motivation as being honourable. Of course in a situation whereby both parties live by a different code of honor, than mine I could understand it.

Motivations aside for now, and reducing it to a very basic outlook, if you look at the results, I can't see overthrowing Saddam Hussein's leadership as being anywhere close to forcing ( overthrowing the leadership of ) the Dalai Lama into exile.

In essence the actions of a soldier are in the end, his own. The soldiers, no matter what values they have learnt, do have a choice ( free will )

My reply is a little disjointed as I wasn't going to bother replying, but Zogs post prompted me to.

No doubt, it could be said that the US has committed crimes against humanity, but it's a matter of degrees ( some may say that it's more black and white ). I think that if you take into account both the motivation and actions of the Chinese and the US in these cases you may find that they are not directly comparable.

Zog, it's a little hard to address any meaningful difference between democracy and communist leadership as essentially "democracy" allows freedom of expression and individual rights ( relatively speaking ), whereas Communism on many levels stifles spirituality and freedom ( this would depend on your viewpoint of course )

I don't claim to understand all the dynamics by any means, so these are just a few of my thoughts ...
 

zog

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Dec 25, 2002
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It's just spin...they're all selfish

pool said:
I can't see overthrowing Saddam Hussein's leadership as being anywhere close to forcing ( overthrowing the leadership of ) the Dalai Lama into exile.
I don't agree. China invaded Tibet because they had an economic and military interest in controling that part of the world. This is exactly the same reason why the US invaded Iraq. Both countries put forward excuses to rationalize their actions but really they were both just motivated by greed and self-interest.
Zog, it's a little hard to address any meaningful difference between democracy and communist leadership as essentially "democracy" allows freedom of expression and individual rights ( relatively speaking ), whereas Communism on many levels stifles spirituality and freedom ( this would depend on your viewpoint of course )
Freedom of expression? Is that why Bill Maher was kicked off the air? Is that why people inthe US were blacklisted for oposing the war in Iraq or arrested for wearing pro-peace T-shirts?

The difference between China and the US is not that one allows free expression...it's only that one claims to allow it.

Zog.
 

pool

pure evil
Aug 20, 2001
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Zog,

With your first point, I thought that aspect of the comparison was obvious and almost added it myself, but I was focusing on the differences in outcome rather than motivations, as I said.

Your second point, I also agree with which is why I added, "relatively speaking" in brackets.

All claims aside, there are many areas where freedoms are suppressed within the US, but to compare the permitted freedom of expression in the US directly to the permitted freedoms within Communism makes no sense on a basic level. The only way I could argue that case, off the top of my head, would be depending on what your definition of freedom is. It could be said that people are slaves to democracy in all it's materialism, media & status symbols, whereas Communism on some levels reduces things back to basics and an appreciation of a more simple yet meaningful life. But, it is a forced environment with defined restrictions and to an extent democracy is too. The difference lies in the degrees of ability to exercise free will.

In essence there is no true freedom of the human spirit in an ordered society except for Anarchy ( in theory at least )

PS Bill Maher is now, among other ventures, on HBO, whereas if he spoke out in China against Communism he'd most likely be locked up at the very least.
 

zog

Friendly Arrogant Bastard
Dec 25, 2002
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I am Canadian

I like it here in Canada.

If I had to choose between the US and China as a place to live, I'd probably choose China.

It's true that the US, on the surface, seems to be a freer and more prosperous nation but it is my belief that things will continue to get worse for all but the wealthy in that country.

China, on the other hand, while they certainly have a long way to go in the freedom and human-rights department is actually moving in the right direction. I wouldn't be surprised if, in twenty years, people are migrating to China instead of from that country.

I would also caution about sweeping generalizations regarding the freedoms in Communist nations. While it is true that many Communist regimes have also chosen the dictatorial/authoritarian route, this is not part of the Communist philosophy. Stalin and Hitler probably had more in common than not when it came to their ruling methodologies even though they came from opposite ends of the political spectrum.

Fortunately, Canada remains an option for me and I'm happy to stay right where I am. I honestly believe that, while our nation is far from perfect, it is the best country to live in in the world.

Zog.
 
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