Child Abductions: A Conversation It’s Hard to Believe We’re Even Having
- Thread starter danmand
- Start date
The US is a country of immigrants, and even now, with its declining birth rates needs immigrants demographically.
Trump is either going totally rogue or thinks this will play to his base.
But so far this act is polling with only 25% support, not so smart in the runup to midterms.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...e-graph/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.f3d6f2b05673
I’ve not read a single argument against legal immigration. What the POTUS wants is the same system Canada has.
The immigrant population in the US is larger (substantially) than the population of Canada.
Again, can you show us based on US and Mexican legal texts and case reports that Mexico is a "safe country", as defined by the jurisprudence - as opposed to by a few guys on TERB? Real question btw. Legal definitions are not ABC/123 a lot of the time.
And if it is not "proper" - odd, morally judgmental term btw - then they should be returned to Mexico without the punishment and White middle class moral outrage that you guys are churning up.
You Republican guys are "tut-tut-tut oh poo!" about school shootings. But let a Hispanic family turn up on your doorstep and claim asylum from a hellhole like Honduras and it's the end of the world and "someone's gonna pay!"
We've been over this ground before, and I posted the relevant sections of the UN Convention of the Status of Refugees. It is explicit that refugee claimants are not entitled to enter a country illegally, or avoid that country's immigration procedures. Refugees have to abide by the laws of the contracting states (Article 2). The only time a contracting state cannot impose penalties for illegal entry is if the claimant comes directly from somewhere where their life or freedom is threatened, and they promptly present themselves to authorities in the contracting states (Article 31).
I've posted all this before, but here's a link to the Convention: http://www.unhcr.org/protect/PROTECTION/3b66c2aa10.pdf
If it's inhumane for the kids to simply be separated from parents who are awaiting hearings in jail because the parents are bona fide flight risks, that's no different than any other person with kids awaiting trial who couldn't get bail, or couldn't post a bail bond.
If it's inhumane to put kids who are not citizens and who have entered the country unlawfully with no one to look after them in detention centers, I'd like to hear where they should be - in jail with with their parents? Maybe they should just be immediately returned to Mexico? Seems that detention facilities are a better way of ensuring no harm comes to them and maximizes the chances that the kids will be reunited with parents whether they remain in the country as refugees or are deported.
Other countries like Turkey, with higher humanitarian standards put families into refugee camps where life may be difficult and confined, but they live in relative freedom and at least are together as families.
Ignoring Trump's childish tweets, the official US rationale is that the adults committed crimes by attempting illegal entry to the USA, and they're being held in prisons for … For what? Trial in an American court to be punished by a prison term at American taxpayer's expense? A brain-dead policy only this regime could invent. And no one could call those cages any sort of child welfare facility.
Clearly deportation's their final solution [reference intended] , they just haven't the insight to see it, nor the competence to have prepared for it or to expeditiously get it underway now.
And the worst thought is that these cretins are so out of touch with the American people they couldn't foresee the outrage that would explode. Heck they even had a foretaste a week or so back — with Obama-era pix — and they still didn't get it?
Certainly the pictures and headlines will provoke an emotional reaction from those who don't consider the problem any more deeply than that. What remains to be seen is whether that group is comprised of any more than those who are already determinedly opposed to Trump anyway.
I don't think the plan is to jail those who are convicted of illegal entry. I think the plan is to use the conviction to deny entry and deport. Sounds logical to me.
They do have the option to leave. Also parents crossing with their own children will not be separated if they cross at a proper border point.
10,000 of the 12,000 children being held did not cross the border with their parents. The loophole that allowed illegal migrants to be released from detention if they are with children, any children, is being exploited by by people that want to cross the border illegally.
Separating Families At The Border: The Hysteria Overlooks Some Key Facts
https://www.investors.com/politics/...ants-trump-immigration-zero-tolerance-asylum/
Illegal Immigration: The latest outrage by the Trump administration is its policy of "ripping" children away from parents who've crossed the border illegally. As with so many other things involving Trump, there's plenty of emotion but precious little in the way of facts.
The furor reached critical mass after the Department of Homeland Security said on Friday that 1,995 children had been separated from their illegal border crossing parents from mid-April through May. That number included, DHS said, cases where the adults were arrested for illegal entry, immigration violations, or possible criminal conduct.
The practice has generated a rising storm of protests, including from Republicans, ever since Attorney General Jeff Sessions announced the administration's "zero tolerance" for illegal border crossers. Laura Bush took to the Washington Post's op-ed page to decry it as "cruel" and "immoral." Trump supporter Franklin Graham called it "disgraceful."
Trump himself says he doesn't want to see families separated while the legal process works its way out, and then went on to blame Democrats for the problem.
So what's going on here?
First, it's important to note that many of the "separations" don't last long at all.
As Rich Lowry explains in a detailed article in National Review, "when a migrant is prosecuted for illegal entry, he or she is taken into custody by the U.S. Marshals," in which case, as when other adults are incarcerated in the U.S., they are separated from their children.
Lowry notes that "The criminal proceedings are exceptionally short, assuming there is no aggravating factor such as a prior illegal entry or another crime. Migrants generally plead guilty, and then are sentenced to time served, typically all in the same day."
The Los Angeles Times reports that Rio Grande Valley border agents prosecuted 568 adults and separated 1,174 children since the administration announced its "zero tolerance" policy in early April. However, it only took a matter of hours to reunite more than a third of these children with their parents.
That hardly constitutes an inhumane policy of "ripping" children away from their parents.
Most of the concern about family separations centers on the administration's handling of asylum seekers who've crossed the border illegally.
In the past, the practice has been to simply detain these families for a short time in an ICE facility. But rather than return for their asylum hearing, many just disappeared into the country.
Under the "zero tolerance" policy, Trump has tried to put an end to this "catch and release" policy, by arresting every adult caught illegally crossing the border.
If parents choose to seek asylum, they can end up separated from their children for months while the asylum process plays out.
Asylum Claims
The administration is right to point out, however, that there is a legal process for seeking asylum that won't involve facing such a choice — just show up at a port of entry to make the asylum claim.
"As I have said many times before, if you are seeking asylum for your family, there is no reason to break the law and illegally cross between ports of entry," Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen tweeted over the weekend.
Critics complain that the legal process just takes too long, as a way to justify illegal border crossings. But illegal border crossers are not only jumping the line. Under the old system they could vastly increase their chances of staying in the country — with or without gaining asylum status.
Is it wrong for Trump to try to close this unfair and potentially dangerous loophole?
Another fact conveniently overlooked amid all the hysteria is that just because a group claims to be a family, doesn't mean it's true. The Department of Homeland Security says that from October 2017 to February 2018 it saw "a 315% increase in the number of cases with minors fraudulently posing as 'family units' to gain entry."
Presumably that's because they think posing as a family will improve their chances of avoiding deportation. Whatever the reason, those children's separation from their parents occurred long before the border patrol showed up.
What To Do?
To be sure, the administration's bungling response to the outcry over its policies has made it harder to understand, much less defend, what's going on.
But those protesting family separations should at least acknowledge that there are reforms available that don't involve returning to the days of "catch and release," while still keeping families together — which is the ideal solution — such as letting children stay in detention centers for more than 20 days, and boosting funds for family shelters at the border.
Getting such reforms done in today's massively polarized environment, however, is unlikely. The question is, who's to blame for that?
https://www.investors.com/politics/...ants-trump-immigration-zero-tolerance-asylum/
Illegal Immigration: The latest outrage by the Trump administration is its policy of "ripping" children away from parents who've crossed the border illegally. As with so many other things involving Trump, there's plenty of emotion but precious little in the way of facts.
The furor reached critical mass after the Department of Homeland Security said on Friday that 1,995 children had been separated from their illegal border crossing parents from mid-April through May. That number included, DHS said, cases where the adults were arrested for illegal entry, immigration violations, or possible criminal conduct.
The practice has generated a rising storm of protests, including from Republicans, ever since Attorney General Jeff Sessions announced the administration's "zero tolerance" for illegal border crossers. Laura Bush took to the Washington Post's op-ed page to decry it as "cruel" and "immoral." Trump supporter Franklin Graham called it "disgraceful."
Trump himself says he doesn't want to see families separated while the legal process works its way out, and then went on to blame Democrats for the problem.
So what's going on here?
First, it's important to note that many of the "separations" don't last long at all.
As Rich Lowry explains in a detailed article in National Review, "when a migrant is prosecuted for illegal entry, he or she is taken into custody by the U.S. Marshals," in which case, as when other adults are incarcerated in the U.S., they are separated from their children.
Lowry notes that "The criminal proceedings are exceptionally short, assuming there is no aggravating factor such as a prior illegal entry or another crime. Migrants generally plead guilty, and then are sentenced to time served, typically all in the same day."
The Los Angeles Times reports that Rio Grande Valley border agents prosecuted 568 adults and separated 1,174 children since the administration announced its "zero tolerance" policy in early April. However, it only took a matter of hours to reunite more than a third of these children with their parents.
That hardly constitutes an inhumane policy of "ripping" children away from their parents.
Most of the concern about family separations centers on the administration's handling of asylum seekers who've crossed the border illegally.
In the past, the practice has been to simply detain these families for a short time in an ICE facility. But rather than return for their asylum hearing, many just disappeared into the country.
Under the "zero tolerance" policy, Trump has tried to put an end to this "catch and release" policy, by arresting every adult caught illegally crossing the border.
If parents choose to seek asylum, they can end up separated from their children for months while the asylum process plays out.
Asylum Claims
The administration is right to point out, however, that there is a legal process for seeking asylum that won't involve facing such a choice — just show up at a port of entry to make the asylum claim.
"As I have said many times before, if you are seeking asylum for your family, there is no reason to break the law and illegally cross between ports of entry," Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen tweeted over the weekend.
Critics complain that the legal process just takes too long, as a way to justify illegal border crossings. But illegal border crossers are not only jumping the line. Under the old system they could vastly increase their chances of staying in the country — with or without gaining asylum status.
Is it wrong for Trump to try to close this unfair and potentially dangerous loophole?
Another fact conveniently overlooked amid all the hysteria is that just because a group claims to be a family, doesn't mean it's true. The Department of Homeland Security says that from October 2017 to February 2018 it saw "a 315% increase in the number of cases with minors fraudulently posing as 'family units' to gain entry."
Presumably that's because they think posing as a family will improve their chances of avoiding deportation. Whatever the reason, those children's separation from their parents occurred long before the border patrol showed up.
What To Do?
To be sure, the administration's bungling response to the outcry over its policies has made it harder to understand, much less defend, what's going on.
But those protesting family separations should at least acknowledge that there are reforms available that don't involve returning to the days of "catch and release," while still keeping families together — which is the ideal solution — such as letting children stay in detention centers for more than 20 days, and boosting funds for family shelters at the border.
Getting such reforms done in today's massively polarized environment, however, is unlikely. The question is, who's to blame for that?
And to do it without appointing more judges to run the 'trials'. As Donny told the NFIB, 'we don't need more judges, just more enforcement'.
That'd be KiddeeKages and jails for their parents, until the refugees realize Americans can be worse than what they're fleeing from, as the former Homeland Security Secretary, now running the White House described it.
And Trump approves of the policy and has extended and made it his own. Lotsa very recent pix taken by CBP and officially released in the last few days.Oh look, what do we have here. Pic is from 2014 when Obama was POTUS
The trials should be pretty short. Should be able to plow through dozens per day per court. No legit defences or serious factual disputes in the overwhelming number of cases. Shouldn't need to appoint more judges just to deal with this temporary blip. Should be cleared up in no time unless more bogus refugee claimants (which make up the vast majority) insist on joining the big line.
America is clearly better than where these people are coming from. Incarceration can come as no surprise to people attempting illegal entry, yet they are prepared to accept it in order to escape whatever shithole they left.
