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happygrump

Once more into the breach
May 21, 2004
820
0
0
Waterloo Region
I think I heard the same interview. Was that the one where the official said, essentially, that there's no foolproof way in a free society to guard against an attack like one that happened in London?

Alas, I think he's probably right. And, like you, I'm afraid that it's not a matter of "if" anymore, it's a matter of "when."

I guess that's what happens when Mr. Bush decided to invade Iraq to cut off funding and destroy the infrastructure that maintained OBL and his gang of murderous bastards. It's obviously worked pretty well, wouldn't you say? I bet the people of London are pretty happy with GWB's choice of targets.
 

happygrump

Once more into the breach
May 21, 2004
820
0
0
Waterloo Region
langeweile said:
Leave the Taliban in power?
No, of course not. (Remember, though, that they were a US ally during the misguided Russian adventure in Afghanistan.) Get them out, then let the Afghani people develop their own home-grown democracy.
langeweile said:
Ignore Saddam?
See above.
 

langeweile

Banned
Sep 21, 2004
5,086
0
0
In a van down by the river
happygrump said:
No, of course not. (Remember, though, that they were a US ally during the misguided Russian adventure in Afghanistan.) Get them out, then let the Afghani people develop their own home-grown democracy.

See above.
I believe we are doing it and we will get there.
Unfortunately in this age of fast food, express photo and instant access we forget that some things just take time.
How long did it take for most European countries to develop and embrace democracy? i believe a few hundred years give or take.
Saddam is out of power..since???
Aren't we just a bit to hasty?
 

hungryfrog

New member
Jan 14, 2004
30
0
0
langeweile said:
can you enlighten me on what could have been different?

Please don't repeat the same old tired phrases, please be specific.

Leave the Taliban in power?
Ignore Saddam?
I'm sorry... I'll most likely have to give you the same old tired phrase...

To start it off, if I had even a hint of how to handle it differently, I'd be running in the next federal elections.

Like I said, I have no answers, nor can most people see into the future. If they could, there would be no Bin Ladden; but if there hadn't been a Bin Ladden, what would have become of that region? The USSR would have expanded? Who knows?

I probably am one of those ranting Canadians that do nothing about it; and understand that just because we disagree with just about everything Bush is doing, who am I to say that what he is doing now, no matter how wrong it seems to me, isn't going to benefit us all in 50 years. Then again, none of us know if the opposite can be true too: what if in 50 years the States have become so powerful that they actually have to power to take over just about any counrty they want (an unlikely scenario, as most other nations would eventually rise up to the challenge), but my point is that no one knows what the repercussions might be in the medium to far future.

To be specific with Iraq (though not to discredit the average American citizen, but rather to illustrate why so many of us strongly dislike Bush and his administration), yes it is a good thing to have gotten rid of a dictator, but seeing how things are running now in Iraq with the daily suicide bombings killing dozens of poor ordinary citizens and US soldiers who have heartbroken families back home, could it be that Iraq is simply not ready for that democracy? When so many factions are fighting amongst themselves, an iron-fist might have been seen as the best way to go. Invading Kuwait was dumb, and taunting a stronger nation was also dumb; but what were the real reasons Bush invaded Iraq, a country his father had pounded into submission before letting them return to somewhat regualr living? If terrorism was his true motive, why did he not invest more forces in capturing Bin Ladden? If nuclear arsenal and weapons of mass destruction were his true reason, why is he not pounding on Iran or North Korea (which has declared having nuclear arsenal)?

I'm not saying the US servicemen are dying in vain, as no soldier ever really does - they fight for what they think is right, but I feel they could have been better used elsewhere.

However, now that the Iraq situation does exist, we can't keep on going with this "half in, half out" approach. If the war is indeed ended, the freakin UN should send in an army of peace keepers. With the number of countries part of the UN, I can't believe that we wouldn't be able to send in enough troops to quench the extremist rebellion....

But again, if we do that, who's to see what would become of the UN in the next 50 years... An organization to mop up other countries' mess?

I don't know where I'm going with this (I'm sure you can all tell!), so I'll leave it at that.

But let's just settle one thing. Canadians do not hate or dislike Americans -- we just don't like their leader. I don't know where Canadians stand as far as Americans stand, but to be called weak, pussies, or lapdogs is just insulting. I'd like to point out that there is also a lot of Canadian blood all over Europe. I would also like to point out that the Canadians were alos there to take Juno beach when the Americans took Omaha and Utah beach.
 

langeweile

Banned
Sep 21, 2004
5,086
0
0
In a van down by the river
langeweile said:
How long did it take for most European countries to develop and embrace democracy? i believe a few hundred years give or take.
Saddam is out of power..since???
Aren't we just a bit to hasty?
Further proof to my point.

A Familiar Place
It got ugly in postwar Germany, too.



With all the nay saying about our presence in Iraq, it's worth noting that none of these difficulties are particularly new. No postwar occupation has been without serious challenges, including the occupation of Germany after World War II. The New York Times ran a series of news stories in late 1945 reporting, in part, the following:


"Germans Reveal Hate of Americans," October 31, 1945

The German attitude toward the American occupation forces has swung from apathy and surface friendliness to active dislike. According to a military government official, this is finding expression in the organization of numerous local anti-American organizations throughout the zone and in a rapid increase in the number of attacks on American soldiers. There were more such attacks in the first week of October than in the preceding five months of the occupation, this source declared.
This official views the situation as so serious that he and others are protesting the withdrawal of 1,600 experienced military-government officers form the German governments on township, county and regional levels between Nov. 1 and Dec. 15. "We have been talking since the summer about the trouble that we expect this winter," the source said. "That trouble has now begun and we meet it with a plan to withdraw officers from communities where trouble is already being encountered.


"Loss of Victory in Germany Through U.S. Policy Feared," November 18, 1945

Grave concern was expressed today by informed officials that the United States might soon lose the fruits of victory in Germany through the failure to prepare adequately for carrying out its long-term commitments under the Potsdam Declaration. Government failures were attributed in part to public apathy. The predictions of a coming crisis are predicated upon three points:
1) The failure to start training a civilian corps of administrators to take over when the Army's Military Government pulls out of Germany by June 1.

2) The failure of the Government to set up an expert advisory group, such as that which existed in the Foreign Economic Administration's Enemy Branch to back up the American administrators of Germany with informed advice and provide a focal point in Washington for policy-making on the German question.

3) The failure of the Allies to decide together, or the United States for itself, the crucial economic question raised by the Potsdam Declaration; namely what level of German economic activity is desired over the long term?


"Germans Declare Americans Hated," December 3, 1945

An exhaustive compilation of opinions of Germans in all walks of life on their reaction to the United States occupation of their country was released this afternoon from the confidential status under which it was submitted to officials of the United States Forces in the European Theatre recently.
Bitter resentment and deep disappointment was voiced over the Americans' first six months of occupation, though there was some praise for the improvements in transportation, health conditions, book publishing and entertainment.


"German Election Set In Towns of U.S. Zone," December 19, 1945

United States Seventh Army headquarters announced today that plans had been completed for initial German elections in January at Gemuende. A statement said that a vast majority of Germans remained passive in attitude toward politics and displayed no disposition to take over civic responsibilities.
I think we can agree that the postwar occupation of Germany, and the rest of Europe, worked out quite well, despite numerous difficulties and the best efforts of the New York Times to highlight them — as it does today in postwar Iraq.
 

someone

Active member
Jun 7, 2003
4,307
1
36
Earth
langeweile said:
can you enlighten me on what could have been different?

Please don't repeat the same old tired phrases, please be specific.

Leave the Taliban in power?
Ignore Saddam?
Of course not. Unlike Iraq, the Taliban actually had something to do with Bin Laden. If the U.S. had limited their agressiveness to the war against terrorism, I would have no real problems with their actions. The problem is that they did not do that.
 

langeweile

Banned
Sep 21, 2004
5,086
0
0
In a van down by the river
someone said:
Of course not. Unlike Iraq, the Taliban actually had something to do with Bin Laden. If the U.S. had limited their agressiveness to the war against terrorism, I would have no real problems with their actions. The problem is that they did not do that.
I guess this is were you and I have to disagree.
 

langeweile

Banned
Sep 21, 2004
5,086
0
0
In a van down by the river
DonQuixote said:
Someone. You're wasting your time trying to debate this issue with langeweile.
He hasn't gotten it to date and I doubt he ever will understand that the Middle
East is far more complex and diverse than what's presented to him.

He probably still thinks there are weapons of mass distruction in Iraq.
Saddam and OBL are also buddies. :confused:

I give up on him.
Looks like our truce is over. Oh well.
Oh it may be far more diffcult and diverse thatn I understand you are right on that. i certainly don't pretend to be an expert, but for common sense you don't need to be an expert.
But I do understand dictators killing their own people and terrorists attacking us.
 

The Brus

Guest
Nov 30, 2004
166
0
0
Windsor
I agree that this board has a left-leaning stance and is generally anti-American. I personally am right of Attila the Hun.

I do not agree that most Canadians really like Americans generally. Most resent the better life that Americans lead in their patriotism, money and lifestyle. Canadians are bitchers who will shout down any thoughts that are right of centre. They shout because they have no real solutions to problems. They want the government to take care of it, much like the liberal democrats in the U.S., who profess to love government health care, gay marriage, abortion on demand and soon, penalty-free pot smoking. These things will lead eventually to the complete collapse of our Canadian society as we know it and relegate us lower than number eight on the G-8.
 

slowandeasy

Why am I here?
May 4, 2003
7,232
0
36
GTA
RE: Land of the Pussies

cr1mson2002 said:
After what happened in the UK this week and after all that has occurred during the last few years and reading what I have read on this board I have to conclude that "Your country has the largest concentration of pussies on the planet".

How do you sleep at night you righteous assholes. Is it the cold weather, the political environment, or the comforting feeling that one feels when aligned with the big dog that creates so many pussies.

You are a pussy if you are:

-a person or group who gives in to a bully
-a person or group that complains about a problem and then doesn't fix the problem
-a person or group that compains about a problem and points fingers at others
-yada yada yada. The list goes on.

To those Canadians who don't fall into this category- I apologize for my rant.
Stupid Americans... BEAVERS NOT PUSSIES... not only is the American Political failing, but now you cannot even tell the difference between a beaver and a cat!!! LOL...
 

dj1470

Banned
Apr 7, 2005
7,708
0
0
I just remember what my grandfather told me years ago before his death. He was a WW2 vet. He served in Italy and Europe with XXXCorps and the 3rd Irish Guards. He was heavily involved in Falaise and "Market Garden". There was a popular euphemism at the time, see if I can remember:

"There are the Nazis on a hill, the Canadians will take it, the British will hold it, the Americans will lose it, and the French will surrender."

Canadians are not pussies and never have been. We are just, collectively, very intelligent and not self-destructive. That is OUR culture. We do not fire until fired upon.
 

someone

Active member
Jun 7, 2003
4,307
1
36
Earth
DonQuixote said:
Yea, shure! :cool:

Canadians aren't pussies.
But, is the legislature funding their treaties?
I'm not implying they aren't; just a question.

Don

You're definitely setting the standard for peace keepers.
That, I support and applaud!
I'm wondering if I have misunderstood your posts on this question. I thought that you were just saying that Canada was under contributing to collective defence (compared to other NATO countries), in which case I agree with you. However, now I am wondering if you are saying that the NATO treaty imposes specific requirements that are not being meet. If so, I was not aware of any such requirements.
 

onthebottom

Never Been Justly Banned
Jan 10, 2002
40,558
23
38
Hooterville
www.scubadiving.com
I don't think NATO is the least bit relevant. It is simply an organization whose purpose is to subsidize the defense of Europe (from whom someone should be asking now) with US help.

I think the US should follow the French lead from the 60s and pull out. Strike an alliance with the UK and Australia - I don't think anyone else is capable of fighting anyway.

OTB
 

onthebottom

Never Been Justly Banned
Jan 10, 2002
40,558
23
38
Hooterville
www.scubadiving.com
DonQuixote said:
.......
As to OTB, the French, Germans and Canadians are in Afghanastan.
They are relevant. As are the Poles, Czecks, Slovaks, etc.

You continue to be myopic in your view of global politics.
Take your blinders off and see the big picture. It's rather interesting.
You might enjoy the view. :p

Don
LOL, yeah all 14 of them with no air cover...

OTB
 
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