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c36

Gabbar said:
Well, no city can "license" anything which is deemed to be illegal. So we are back to the interpretation question. Are massage parlors/body rubs harbingers of paid sexual activities? I don't know, I have never indulged in any sexual activity at ant licensed spa :).
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For Christ's sake, licensed body rub parlors are NOT brothels.
 
GPIDEAL said:
SP was NOT an illegal activity. Not in Canada. Certain activities surrounding prostitution were illegal, but not the act itself.

As for lap dance or HJ, it doesn't matter what the provider calls herself, and neither does it matter if it's incall or outcall. A john will break the law if he obtains a sexual service for consideration or just communicates for the purpose while the SP is immune from selling or performing or communicating (except she can't communicate near children or in public view).
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Yes, yes I would hope that everyone reading this thread knows that about the SP business, the difference wasn't and won't be licensed ones. The line changes when you are operating a SC or MP and under the guise of a legitimate business offer extra services. Maybe I should open an adult bookstore and have female servers. :wink:
Most guys knew what they were doing by going to a SP and the risks involved, prior to and after c36.
 
GPIDEAL said:
Licensed body rub parlors, whether in the Region of Peel or in the City of Toronto, won't be deemed illegal as of December 6th, 2014. (I think you are confusing holistic spas with licensed body rub joints, if the former permit nude bodyslides, etc.) [36][/I]
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thats my point exactly, so why is everyone freaking out saying they have to stop going to massage parlours after Dec than?
 
...Because some people are confusing bylaws with the criminal code.

A licensed body rub is holds a municipal license to conduct a certain type of business.

The law is unclear and we don't know how it will be applied. We do know that the backgrounder to Bill C-36 specifically refers to massage parlours as a type of service that the drafters of the bill believe should be offside.

So, if a HJ (or bodyslide or russian or....) is considered to be illegal, it does NOT mean that a spa will suddenly lose its license. The city will happily continue to collect the license fees. However, it does mean that the spa cannot provide certain services because those services would be illegal.

As an analogy, consider cigarettes. Jo's Variety holds a business license with Ontario and Toronto. It can sell cigarettes. Let's say tomorrow all tobacco products are deemed to be illegal. Jo's Variety can still exist as a business. It can still hold a business license with the city and the province. But it can't sell cigs.

What's interesting about body rubs is that the licenses usually don't specify what can be performed (at least in Toronto). They don't talk about T,N,NR, BS, which is why spas couldn't advertise these services. (Body rubs are only permitted to sell what they are approved to sell.) I assume that some spas took the trouble to get endorsements for specific services. I wonder if the spas that did not, and therefore don't have anything specified on their license, are in a better position now.....
 
SuperCharge said:
Why, because according to the law massage parlours will be illegal coming Dec, no? Isn't that what the law now states?! I'm curious how the city of peel is going to deal with that. Here's the issue, if it is illegal to operate massage parlours now, will the city of Brampton not renew legal massage parlour licenses coming this new year when they have to renew?! And if they do renew the licenses, how then can it be an Illegal establishment? That's like walking into a bar that has been licensed to serve alcohol and then arresting the patrons for drinking!!
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TeasePlease said:
...Because some people are confusing bylaws with the criminal code.

A licensed body rub is holds a municipal license to conduct a certain type of business.

The law is unclear and we don't know how it will be applied. We do know that the backgrounder to Bill C-36 specifically refers to massage parlours as a type of service that the drafters of the bill believe should be offside.

So, if a HJ (or bodyslide or russian or....) is considered to be illegal, it does NOT mean that a spa will suddenly lose its license. The city will happily continue to collect the license fees. However, it does mean that the spa cannot provide certain services because those services would be illegal.

As an analogy, consider cigarettes. Jo's Variety holds a business license with Ontario and Toronto. It can sell cigarettes. Let's say tomorrow all tobacco products are deemed to be illegal. Jo's Variety can still exist as a business. It can still hold a business license with the city and the province. But it can't sell cigs.

What's interesting about body rubs is that the licenses usually don't specify what can be performed (at least in Toronto). They don't talk about T,N,NR, BS, which is why spas couldn't advertise these services. (Body rubs are only permitted to sell what they are approved to sell.) I assume that some spas took the trouble to get endorsements for specific services. I wonder if the spas that did not, and therefore don't have anything specified on their license, are in a better position now.....
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All Toronto BR's submit their services (Ie: $40/30mins, $60/45mins, etc).

That is irrelevant to legality of the business.

I spent all day meeting w/ LE today, our licenses aren't going anywhere folks. Bodyrub parlors are licensed to sell bodyrubs. Always have been, still will be. In Toronto, BR's were never licensed for sexual services, nothing changes with c-36 in that regard.

That's all I will say here, as I have invested my time, energy, & $$ into this research, fighting for the rights of all sex workers, and meeting with all levels of government & enforcement.

Muah! Xo
 
This will make the third time I have posted this, but I feel the need to do it again.

Going forward, you'll be doing yourselves a huge favor by not asking for specific services.

The Justice Department's brief says "In particular, the consideration must be contingent on the provision of a particular sexual service and the contract or agreement must be entered into before the sexual service is provided." It also says "Sexual activity involving no expectation of getting paid for the services provided does not meet the test."

So basically if you are getting a massage from somebody (even just a regular RMT) and she suddenly starts doing something which you neither asked for nor implied that you would pay for, then you are *probably* on the right side of the law. This is basically the reasoning in the Ponomarev case.

The only acronym you will need to familiarize yourself with in the future is YMMV.
 
DigitallyYours said:
This will make the third time I have posted this, but I feel the need to do it again.

Going forward, you'll be doing yourselves a huge favor by not asking for specific services.

The Justice Department's brief says "In particular, the consideration must be contingent on the provision of a particular sexual service and the contract or agreement must be entered into before the sexual service is provided." It also says "Sexual activity involving no expectation of getting paid for the services provided does not meet the test."

So basically if you are getting a massage from somebody (even just a regular RMT) and she suddenly starts doing something which you neither asked for nor implied that you would pay for, then you are *probably* on the right side of the law. This is basically the reasoning in the Ponomarev case.

The only acronym you will need to familiarize yourself with in the future is YMMV.
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So basically your saying that if you got something from a MPA and just decided that you would give her extra money, we're good. Where does that leave the owner?
 
stay said:
So basically your saying that if you got something from a MPA and just decided that you would give her extra money, we're good. Where does that leave the owner?
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Possibly *not* knowing for sure that any financial gain was "obtained by or derived directly or indirectly from the commission of an offence..."
 
DigitallyYours said:
Possibly *not* knowing for sure that any financial gain was "obtained by or derived directly or indirectly from the commission of an offence..."
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my god it is brillant.
charge $200 for a massage and be done with it. LOL
Have $40 lap dances, min 3.... song duration not important LOL

and seriously I mean ROFLMAO
 
Gabbar said:
Well, no city can "license" anything which is deemed to be illegal. So we are back to the interpretation question. Are massage parlors/body rubs harbingers of paid sexual activities? I don't know, I have never indulged in any sexual activity at ant licensed spa :).
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The only people who are not involved in MP that don't know what goes on in a MP are a handfull of terb members, all others including LE are well aware of activities and services offered.
 
I'm sure many people think Ponomarev was a client. He was the manager/owner of the spa. He was also acquitted of all charges.
 
MPAsquared said:
All Toronto BR's submit their services (Ie: $40/30mins, $60/45mins, etc).

That is irrelevant to legality of the business.

I spent all day meeting w/ LE today, our licenses aren't going anywhere folks. Bodyrub parlors are licensed to sell bodyrubs. Always have been, still will be. In Toronto, BR's were never licensed for sexual services, nothing changes with c-36 in that regard.

That's all I will say here, as I have invested my time, energy, & $$ into this research, fighting for the rights of all sex workers, and meeting with all levels of government & enforcement.

Muah! Xo
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Yeah, that's what I said. Your endorsed services are for 30/45/60 for $40/$60/$80. That's what your license allows. But do you have an endorsement for a handjob? A bodyslide? An encore? Mixers? That's the stuff that may not be on your license and therefore that's why the city will be happy to keep collecting your fees. It does NOT mean that you're safe to continue doing whatever you were doing before under C36.

so yeah, you can keep doing what the city has licensed you to do. But you may not be able to do the stuff that you are not licensed to do but did anyways under the old rules.

If you have a legal opinion to the contrary, email it to me and we'll chat offline.
 
Many TERB people seem to think the police are dumb and don't know what goes on in massage parlors (and strip clubs).
 
MPAsquared said:
All Toronto BR's submit their services (Ie: $40/30mins, $60/45mins, etc).

That is irrelevant to legality of the business.

I spent all day meeting w/ LE today, our licenses aren't going anywhere folks. Bodyrub parlors are licensed to sell bodyrubs. Always have been, still will be. In Toronto, BR's were never licensed for sexual services, nothing changes with c-36 in that regard.

That's all I will say here, as I have invested my time, energy, & $$ into this research, fighting for the rights of all sex workers, and meeting with all levels of government & enforcement.

Muah! Xo
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Nice review of ur meeting Emily;)..lol sorry.. no pun intended.
On the funny note, a few guys came by my spa and asked for reflexology;) so cute..
The bottom line those were the guys who understand exactly what is it legal or not legal to ask for in a
Massage Spa or a Body Rub Parlour or a Strip Club. And off course after their massages we made sure they left "Very Happy"
Xoxo
 
SuperCharge said:
I'm sure they do know what goes on, some of them partake as well
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Of course.

A few weeks ago, I saw a police car parked outside of a spa. Not licensing. Actual police. I decided to stick around and observe. No one hauled off in handcuffs. In fact, no one arrested. Just a bunch of cops standing around chatting with one another, occasionally walking into and out of the spa. I saw some civilians chatting with the cops as well. All very civilized.

If there was a problem in there, I'm sure the cops would have charged people under the existing laws, which are still on the books. But they didn't. (And believe me, this was a spa that could easily be charged on any given day).

This idea that the police are 'waiting' for new laws before 'pouncing' is really a stretch.
 
DigitallyYours said:
Of course.

A few weeks ago, I saw a police car parked outside of a spa. Not licensing. Actual police. I decided to stick around and observe. No one hauled off in handcuffs. In fact, no one arrested. Just a bunch of cops standing around chatting with one another, occasionally walking into and out of the spa. I saw some civilians chatting with the cops as well. All very civilized.

If there was a problem in there, I'm sure the cops would have charged people under the existing laws, which are still on the books. But they didn't. (And believe me, this was a spa that could easily be charged on any given day).

This idea that the police are 'waiting' for new laws before 'pouncing' is really a stretch.
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why would they lay charges under a lame duck law?

It sounds like it will be a nudge nudge wink wink business, that somehow the government didn't think about that and the courts will ignor the intent of the law.

I never profess to know what will happen, we are not privy to that information. What I will say time and time again, listening to people on terb for your legal advise, for something that can change your life forever, is just dumb. I will always say if you understand that there is a risk and are comfortable with it, by all means, carry on. Afterall it is your life and you can do what you want.

So what is LEGAL for the customers who enters a bodyrub, just so they understan what to expect.
 
This idea that the police are 'waiting' for new laws before 'pouncing' is really a stretch.[/QUOTE]

You are absolutely correct!!
As a matter of fact massage spas have been and will be inspected by Municipal Licensing and Standarts. ML&S have done some recruiting and now are fully staffed with officers. Some people often mistake ML&S for police. The main difference is that Licensing officers can't even charge u criminally as it's out of their Jurisdiction.
This law is targeting pimps and traffickers. Everybody hates them..
 
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