C36: How to get Ottawa Councillors do the same as Toronto

[LikeRedHeads]

I am sure you have seen this:

http://ward27news.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/LetterToPremier03DEC14.pdf

Is there a way to get Ottawa councillors to send the same type of letter to Kathleen Wynne?

This would be great if she commands the police to hold off until the review of this shitty law by the Courts. She received the letter today. Let's see what she says, but if Ottawa councillors do the same she will have no choice than accept (given the 2 largest cities in the province are against the law).

 

[LikeRedHeads]

Can someone volunteer to write a letter to our city Councillors. We will post it on Terb so that people can copy it and send it to the Councillors. We can also post it on Change.org for a petition to send to the Councillors. You think this is feasible? We want Ottawa to also be active in this.

 

[goldwing]

The police don't have the resources to enforce Bill C36 with regards to online activity. They are already swamped with real online crimes including child pornography and credit card fraud. This is Canada, the police are not going to go on Google search and start censoring SPs websites because this is in direct violation to people's right to freedom of speech guaranteed by the Charter of Rights. The only thing the police are going to crack down on is the street scene the same way they did with the previous law. The only reason they will crack down on the street scene is because of complaints coming from people living in neighbourhoods where this kind of unwanted activity is happening. No complaints = no enforcement, and nobody is going to complain about your online activity and text messages because they won't know anything about your private activities.

I don't know why hobbyists are so freaked out about bill C36, just keep your hobbying activities to the internet and text messaging and you will have no trouble. In fact, the remaining post bill C36 hobbyists are actually going to benefit economically from this law to the detriment of SPs. Some hobbyists will retire because they won't break the law under any circumstances, therefore there will be a drop in demand. Since SPs aren't targeted criminally by this law I can't see the supply side changing very much. Constant supply with lower demand equals lower prices for hobbyists.

So congratulations Peter McKay, the vary women whom you were trying to protect with this idiotic law are going suffer because they will have to work longer and harder to support themselves financially. We need to kick these church police Harperites out of power as soon as possible to protect the lives of women working in this industry.

 

[LikeRedHeads]

See this is not exactly as before. Many (and I mean A LOT) SPs have been visited in hotel rooms and were told to leave the premises after hotel management called the police. But since the old law was not clear about if the hotel room was incall or outcall, the hobbyist found in was not charged. But with C36, if hotel management complains and you are found in the room you WILL BE charged (but not the SP). And remember that there are a lot of hotels in Ottawa which are not SP friendly. I am thinking of the Suites on Albert (called the cops several times), Minto Suites, Albert at Bay...etc. The safest hotels are the crappy ones on Montreal road and Rideau.
So with C36 there is a high risk of getting caught and charged for the hobbyist.

If we get our Councillors to side by Toronto Councillors, we increase the chance that K Wynne will order police not to enforce the law until the new judgment is passed.

So no one wants to volunteer to write the letter?

 

[thompo69]

Curious how Kathleen Wynne is supposed to order police to do something when, other than the OPP, they don't report to her.

 

[goldwing]

Well I have to disagree with what you wrote LikeRedHeads.

Ok, let's say you are with an SP in a hotel room and the police bang on the door. The cops will kick you and the SP out, which is all the hotel is interested in doing. It is not illegal to be in somebody's hotel room at the invitation of the person renting the room, and you could be in that room for any reason, not necessarily with the intent to purchase sex. It would be a very difficult thing for the police to prove that your sole purpose of being in that room was with the intention to purchase sex and as I have said earlier they don't have the resources to waste their time to gather all of the evidence and prove it in court beyond a reasonable doubt. They can't charge the SP because according to the new law it is not illegal to sell sex. The only reason the police showed up in the first place is because the hotel complained. The only thing thing the hotel is interested in is having you and the SP out of their hotel. If this actually went to court, the hotel staff would have to testify against you. Do you seriously think that the hotel would want to have their employees time wasted testifying against you in a court of law? There is no benefit to the hotel in doing this. Hotels know that prostitution is a reality of the business they operate in. They may not like it, but they know it can't really be avoided. The only thing the hotel wants is to have you and the SP out of there, they don't care about prosecuting you because there would be no profit for them in doing so.

The reason the police will prosecute at the street level is because all they have to do is have a female officer pose as a street walker and if you approach her and ask to buy sex, they have got all the evidence on you right then and there and they will easily be able to convict you in a court of law.

 

[withpassion]

I agree with goldwing. LE do not have the time or desire to bother with the paperwork and time to process someone on a charge that likely won't stick anyway. Of course, if someone behaves like a complete ass, they will find the will to do so. Same old same old.

 

[LikeRedHeads]

I know few cases where the Ottawa police have arrested and charged people with no evidence whatsoever. Of course the people were not convicted but still a pain in the ass if you have to go through the process. Some SPs have even be searched in hotels after the hotel management complained. I am not even sure they are allowed to search someone without arresting them first. Some Ottawa LE are real assholes, let's be clear about that.

 

[qqxsxxx]

To LRH's point, it's the laying of charges alone, that will turn some people's lives upside-down.

 

[goldwing]

Just stay away from the street scene and use your head when you make appointments with high end escorts, which is something you should be doing anyway with Bill C36 or with no Bill C36. The chances are exponentially greater that you will show up to an appointment, and the girl greeting you is not the girl in the photos, or she is playing some scam like "I have to pay the driver", or she lifts money from your wallet when you aren't looking. These are the kind of things that you should be genuinely concerned about if you are hobbying.

The crown attorney is not going to prosecute a case that they have no hope in winning (which would be the case if they had no evidence). If the cops kept laying charges with no evidence the crown attorneys would get angry at the police and tell them to stop wasting their time.

In order for the police to catch you OFF the street scene they would have to make fake ads on the internet and either lure you to a hotel room or a home or they would show up at your doorstep and arrest you. Now this kind of thing does happen in the United States but you have to remember the politics in that country are very different with the christian right having massive political power and therefore the cops act accordingly by cracking down on all forms of prostitution to keep these people happy. In Canada, prostitution is viewed by the majority of the population as a harmless vice, unless it is happening at the street level. The base of conservative support largely comes from right wing religious people, and the passing of bill C 36 was designed to keep them happy so that they will get their votes in the next election. The cops already know that this is a politically controversial issue and therefore they will only crack down on the street scene because this is where they get most of the prostitution related complaints. Bill C36 is just a feelgood law and as long as you stay away from the street, which you should be doing anyway, you will be safe.

Now this is not to say that the cops don't go online and set people up because they do. But when they do this they are generally trying to catch pedophiles or other real criminals. The police even admit that they don't have the resources to do that kind of policing properly. If population found out that valuable resources were being taken away from catching child predators and other fraudsters (real criminals) in order to catch men paying for sex where both parties are mutually consenting and hidden away from public view in hotels and homes, the political heat they would face would be enormous.

 

[LikeRedHeads]

Ottawa police are zealous and they have in the past laid charges without evidence. In Canada the crown attorney and the police are in an "incestuous" relationship, in the sense that they both need each other on an ongoing basis, so the Crown will not necessarily tell them to fuck off when they lay charges without evidence because they know they will need them. In the USA, and under specific circumstances, it is a jury which decides to lay charged or not, and this is the direct result of the "incestuous" relationship between police and attorney (in the U.S. as a lot of people complain about attorneys being too close to police).

 

[TheRiddlerMan]

That's because back then thread cops didn't infest these discussions, they just took place wherever the subject came up.

 

[HUGS_KISSES]

Unlike what goldwing said the former Con injustice minister Peter McKay was NOT trying to protect any women. What happened was that because of the untimely court challenge by whoever (I am not going to debate that again but it was stupid timing when an ultra right wing conservative regime was in power with a majority and for selfish reasons made everything much worse for everyone) the old laws which were quite good compare to C36 were stuck down and the Con government headed by Harper was cornered and since this idiotic government was ideological based rather than evidence based then they could not possibly allow prostitution of any kind in the country.

So what they did was that they supposedly debated the bill among themselves and carried out a fake survey and rigged the results and called only their own witnesses to testify in parliament and passed the worse possible law they could in order to penalize severely all types of paid sex even those between consenting adults. They KNEW well it is going to be harmful to the women they pretended they wanted to protect as many advisers told them so that pushing the trade underground would jeopardize many workers and many letters were written to them in this regard. They wanted to keep the vote of their conservative supporters or in other words not lose them so this was the reason. These laws were rejected by Supreme court are UNCONSTITUTIONAL passed by corrupt scandalist deposed dictatorial Harper Con regime.

On the other hand as it was said many law abiding citizens gave up the hobby and switched to legal alternatives like strip bars but for many including myself I will never try pay for sex because no matter how well intended the hobbyist may be and how hard or vigorous one may try to screen out dark side (the pimped, the underage, the forced, the sick, the addict) it is IMPOSSIBLE to screen by 100% accuracy and one or two may or will slip out and pass the crack and I do not wish to risk that. So C36 was not the only reason and no the Con injustice minister's goal was not protecting any woman.

 

[TheRiddlerMan]

You're the strip club guy, right? You're way more likely to run into sketchy situations in a club than with established providers, especially considering how common "extras" are these days. I stopped going to the Barefax partly because it was getting too seedy.

 

[HUGS_KISSES]

This is not true. The likelihood of running into pimped, forced underaged sex worker on backpages or so called established sex worker (initially most start from backpages) is by far more than meeting a nude dancer in Ottawa clubs (I am not talking about Laval so called strip bars or the ones outside of Montreal). Most (80%) of nude dancers in Ottawa are just that. Nude dancers. They will not engage in sex or sexual activities like HJ, BJ, CFS or whatever and it is their own choice and some are students especially where I frequent mostly like Barbarellas where there are cameras in the Champagne rooms or even Barefax where there are no cameras.

It is true that I have been offered extras a number of times past years but I turned it down every time and never saw that so called dancer again so my conscious is clear. If I don't get engage in any kind of sexual activity even if by mistake I come across a pimped dancer than my conscious is still clear because I haven't done anything to her or engage in anything with her.

You cannot deny the fact that a big majority of escorts are FORCED into the profession. Either for the desperate need for money (it is very hard if not impossible for a single mother to get a job and support a baby or two with minimum wage) or drug addiction or a pimp and ... and those with money are taking advantage of the fact and see ladies half or one-third or a quarter of their own age and have sex with them. These are facts if you wish to deny them as factual or be offended the that is your prerogative but we all know it is true.

It is also true that there are escorts who are in what they see as a profession by their own choice and they support themselves or families and are happy about their temporary jobs too. These are minorities and as I said no matter how well intended a hobbyist may be it is impossible to be 100% sure that the one you see is definitely falling into what I see as about 10 to 20% minority.

We need to adopt Finnish laws in which paid for sex is still illegal BUT only if a hobbyist fails t screen out the dark side (so it is your responsibility to check for birth certificate, ask questions and stay away from questionable workers) that way a big majority of hobbyists would make a real attempt to screen out bad elements but should become legal for seeing consenting adult pimp-free sex workers. Again as I said not 100% possible but this eliminated a big percentage of forced sex workers.

 

[TheRiddlerMan]

I haven't been to Barbarella's in years because the champagne rooms are so open, but I guess Barefax having more secluded ones drew a different crowd. Last few times I was there every dancer offered extras, and stripper extras are the worst - expensive, dirty and dangerous. Not my thing.

As for providers, I stay away from Asian spas for the reasons you mention and also the random Backpage providers, but a little research will find the reputable ones. Places like CMJ have a vested interest in keeping things above board.

 

[funfunfun010101]

Isn't because back then there was only one section?

It would be very hard to give good arguments that this discussion belongs in a review section. That's not what you are implying I hope?

No there has been two sections for a long time. Just that people either find it too hard to understand the difference, don't care or forget.

 

[TheRiddlerMan]

Isn't because back then there was only one section?

It would be very hard to give good arguments that this discussion belongs in a review section. That's not what you are implying I hope?

It's been like that for years, but nobody cared (ala 3F's response). Including the mods, who never bothered to move these threads from where they popped up.

 

[maurice93]

You're the strip club guy, right? You're way more likely to run into sketchy situations in a club than with established providers, especially considering how common "extras" are these days. I stopped going to the Barefax partly because it was getting too seedy.

I would call him a hypocrite, but he is too naive to be called that.

 

[HUGS_KISSES]

This is a debate between adults maurice. Be civilize and act mature. You are not adding anything useful by name calling or making personal attacks except making a complete a** out of yourself in public. I didn't say anything against you personally which would have warranted a personal attack.