Buzz Hargrove - ABANDON SHIP!

[healer677]

http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/ab...wsitemid=CTVNews/20080708/Hargrove_CAW_080708

So I guess the word is "retiring". I thought it was more like -"jumping off a sinking ship". I guess he's blaming the goverment soley on the decline of the auto industry. I guess manufacturing jobs that pay, really, unskilled labourers insane amounts of money and benefits; had nothing to do with the industry not being able to compete with foreign markets that pay their employees less. Or the companies making cars nobody wants to buy. Or the price of gas. Maybe the strong dollar.

But -NO. It's the goverments fault. Move along Buzz -the unions are dying in North America. He's just one of the first to go...and he's a Socialist -wow I would have never guessed.lol

 

[Doctor Zoidburg]

When an old rotting wooden ship of yore was singing, the rats were the first to jump ship.

 

[buckwheat1]

BUZZ must retire by the end of the year, he's turning 65 and under CAW rules he must retire. He probably has time (vacation, sick days ect) coming to him so he's taking that. If you know anything about the CAW under his leadership it's come a long way. It's the largest private union in Canada.
Yes the auto industry is fading (declining) in North america all makes. One reason is the Canadian dollar and the price of fuel. fuel has almost gone up 80% in the last year, knowone in the auto industry forcasted that coming.
In the auto industry there are many skilled workers and many that aren't but you couldn't pay me to do those jobs day in and day out they kill the brain.
There are laws that the government has put in palce on restrictions of teh automobile. Do you think Japan would allow and of our 3 automakers to set up shop there? da no way

 

[Doug]

Agree he's lost touch with reality, as has many of the union folks. I'm not a union basher, but I can face reality when I see it.

My non-union, Canadian built car has cost me less to operate than any union built N.A. car has that I've previously owned. Am I likely to buy another car that is identifiably a union built car? Am I likely to buy another Canadian made, non-union car? Which option supports local workers more I can't clearly state.

I doubt that Hargrove's successor will be more in-touch.

Doug

 

[Never Compromised]

Glad to see everyone here in favour of a low-wage economy.

And acting as if the unions are the major players in the decline of the American automakers. If wages were so out of line, you would think they would have moved quicker on using labour-saving technology, but they are behind there too.

So what sinecure will McGuinty bestow on his old "socialist" friend?

Technology changes, the economy changes. Why is it that Nissan seems to remember the lessons of the '73 oil shortage but GM does not?

When the motor vehicle was introduced it put many blacksmiths and carriage makers out of work. Such is the nature of change.

We are facing increased labour competition from the global market. Like it or not, the cost of labour must go down if you wish to see manufacturing stick around in North America. Even services such as accounting, medicine and "local support desks" are going global.

Labour is no longer competing with the guy in the factory down the street or the factory in the next town. Labour is now an international commodity.

 

[buckwheat1]

the GM issue has nothing to do with UNION wages and benefits they only account for about 7% of the cost of manufactoring the car. Just remember the FORD 150 pickup is union made and sells more of that model then any car or truck.

question: How can any company compete with wages in Mexico/China ect
when the cost of living in Canada/US is so high?

 

[Doug]

I wouldn't blame the unions, I just say that they aren't paying attention to reality. They have definitely contributed much to our society and the health of workers. The main problem with the big 3 is upstairs.

If we want to support our own labour, we shouldn't patronize the Dollar stores, Walmart and that style of marketing. Note that those stores aren't union shops.

Doug

 

[dajodo2]

I happen to love both my North American vehicles assembled with CAW & UAW labour.

They have been reliable to me thus far and only cost me regular scheduled maintenance items ( fluid changes, filtres, brakes, tires etc. )

Union!

 

[LancsLad]

When an old rotting wooden ship of yore was singing, the rats were the first to jump ship.

Even more so when they were SINKING




.

 

[babyfinsta]

If we want to support our own labour, we shouldn't patronize the Dollar stores, Walmart and that style of marketing. Note that those stores aren't union shops.

Doug

sorry. its not my job to subsidize unions. if they cant compete than they should go the way of the dodo.

 

[Primetime21]

the GM issue has nothing to do with UNION wages and benefits they only account for about 7% of the cost of manufactoring the car. ?

Does that 7% include the cost of the pensions, medical benefits, etc, that the UNION was involved in when negotiating contracts. Sure GM mgmt is definitely a big part of the problem they are in now. But its not like the union gave them much of a choice. The big 3 here in north america just aren't quick to change in their philosophies. I didn't here the unions complaining when GM and Ford were having record sales years, but now in order to survive changes will have to be made. People in the US aren't buying big trucks as much as in prior years so it makes sense to cut back on production of them.

 

[james t kirk]

North American cars are cheaper than the imports, sometimes, substantially so.

It certainly is not price which is driving people to buy imports.

So I don't understand where the union bashers on here get off.

The problem with North American cars is not the guys building them, it's the shit quality designs that the big 3 (and GM in particular) are churning out.

If North American cars were too expensive and people were buying imports because they were cheaper, I might agree with you, but when your average Accord costs far more than your comparable Pontiac product, blaming unions for sagging NA car sales seems dumb.

Do you people think that these guys should be making 8 bucks an hour with no anything, or better yet 2 bucks an hour?

Where does that get your economy?

Talk about a race to the bottom.

By all accounts, Hargrove is admired outside of union circles for his honesty and the fact that he is working for the little guy.

 

[james t kirk]

Does that 7% include the cost of the pensions, medical benefits, etc, that the UNION was involved in when negotiating contracts. Sure GM mgmt is definitely a big part of the problem they are in now. But its not like the union gave them much of a choice. The big 3 here in north america just aren't quick to change in their philosophies. I didn't here the unions complaining when GM and Ford were having record sales years, but now in order to survive changes will have to be made. People in the US aren't buying big trucks as much as in prior years so it makes sense to cut back on production of them.

Well, the number ONE change that needs to be made is for the NA car manufacturers to start building a quality product that is reliable and stylish.

As you yourself point out, people aren't buying big trucks (thank christ) as much as in prior years. The big 3 had better start figuring out how to sell people quality cars.

 

[toughb]

It's not one thing....

1. Labour is too high $27.00/hr.
2. Quality of build and parts is just not there in the big three.
3. The price of gas went through the roof in two years.

Now that said. Americans, upto recently, were in love with their big V6 gas eating engines. Suddenly, they have switched their demand and want more fuel effecient cars.

What is really to blame. A high standard of living that everyone thought would go on for ever. Well not so.

 

[LancsLad]

the GM issue has nothing to do with UNION wages and benefits they only account for about 7% of the cost of manufactoring the car. Just remember the FORD 150 pickup is union made and sells more of that model then any car or truck.

question: How can any company compete with wages in Mexico/China ect
when the cost of living in Canada/US is so high?

Interesting that whenever there is a thread that highlights the failings of the commie union sluggo's, our very own buzz wannabe ( buttwheat) chirps in to spout the union line.

try posting again after you've got new directives from your steward.


.

 

[JohnLarue]

You see, you keep coming back to the canard that it is the unions competing. The issue is the firms being unable to compete. they are the ones who hold the cards and call the shots.

Not quite so.
The unions had a nasty habit of targeting one automaker ever round of negotiating.
They would then have the other two fall into line with that agreement or face a strike.

The ones who called the shots would fear losing market share if faced with a strike & submit to the unions ever increasing demands.
I have watched this ridiculous upward spiral for 25 years.
\GMs benefit payments to former employees are greater than current employees. Plain and simple the big three have much higher labor costs and have not poured enough money into product design (having to pay higher wage & benefit s left little for innovation)

If there is fault in the management side it is not standing firm 20 years ago with the unions.
There is a cost for everything & now it will be a horrendous price paid for this foolishness. Probably the death of one of the big 3 and the loss of thousands of unions jobs, Not only amongest the big three but also the multitude of supplier companies.

 

[LateComer]

7% in canada is hard to believe. It would be the only industry that I know of with labour at that rate. I would have thought 4Xs that but then what do I really know? Everybody make a lot of cars all over the world. Wait until you see who's buying Volvo from Ford and it's not in India.

I found a reference to the 7% labour cost but dig below the figure and it becomes hard to see that it reflects an accurate number. I've never worked on an assembly line, so I don't know how much work is done and how much standing around is done. It would be interesting to know how that figure was arrived at.

I don't have any inside knowledge of the industry but I assume it is calculated by comparing the labour cost incurred by the auto manufacturer to the total cost of the car but would not include the labour component in the parts purchased by said auto manufacturer. For example, the GM car lines in Oshawa use approx 30 labour hours to assemble a car. At $60.00/hr including benefits that translates to $1800.00. Assuming the average car costs $25,000, the $1800 in labour represents about 7% of the total cost.

 

[Ref]

Technology changes, the economy changes. Why is it that Nissan seems to remember the lessons of the '73 oil shortage but GM does not?

When the motor vehicle was introduced it put many blacksmiths and carriage makers out of work. Such is the nature of change.

We are facing increased labour competition from the global market. Like it or not, the cost of labour must go down if you wish to see manufacturing stick around in North America. Even services such as accounting, medicine and "local support desks" are going global.

Labour is no longer competing with the guy in the factory down the street or the factory in the next town. Labour is now an international commodity.

Such a true harbringer in regards to globalized labour. I recently came back from a conference in the US and centralized/shared/consolidated services are a wave of the future - Why pay high national wages when routine functions(customer service/accounting/ support) can be done at a fraction of the cost overseas ?

When I purchased a wireless device I spent two hours on the phone trying to get it setup - The contact person was from India, probably making $2/hour, if that...Global service is a way of the future. The key companies only ensure that the workers speak English

Welcome to the Global Community!

 

[new2game]

I love reading all this Union bashing...

....If everything you union bashers were writhing was true...how it is totally the union's fault that wages are where they are??...who the hell was at the other end of the table during negotiations??? Trained Chimps??....no...the companies agreed to these contracts...including the latest ones,that GM is trying to weasel themselves out of any way they can....I guess that means as a negotiator, Buzz Hargrove is MENSA and the company negotiators have an IQ rivaling vegetative state. The companies can take at least as much blame as the unions for the state of things, for not reacting fast enough to the plain fucking over free trade has done to this economy. You had to know that the 1st world countries would be pulled down, not the 2nd and 3rd world countries being brought up.

And as far as all the quality bashing, the gap between the Asian and North American cars has closed quite a bit over the last 10 yrs..There have been a number of Cars and Trucks of the year produced domestically, vehicles that in the eyes of those in the know are quality products ..yes the Domestics are still paying for past sins.. and have been ill prepared for the artificially inflated gas prices..because they catered to the demands of consumers in the market they are allowed to freely sell in..the North American market. Any of you that think that there is any fair trade between this end of the planet and the other side haven't got a clue...


N2G

 

[Tarkus]

Whos' to blame?

Glad to see everyone here in favour of a low-wage economy.

And acting as if the unions are the major players in the decline of the American automakers. If wages were so out of line, you would think they would have moved quicker on using labour-saving technology, but they are behind there too.

You make a very valid point about pursuing a low wage economy. That end doesn't wind up helping anybody in the long run. One just has to look how this approach has completely corrupted the economic systems of India and China where essentially the middle class is poor and an extremely small distinct group of people are wealthy beyond belief with no means for the middle class and below to move out of their position. Oddly enough one would think China would realize that this has all the ingredients for revolution?

All that said while I believe the unions are usually unfairly targeted as the sole cause of problems their position and those of their supporters are equally myopic to their contribution to the problem. For example while some senior management should be sacked for the Oshawa Truck Plant failure it should also be remembered that the Union, and no doubt Buzz himself, are involved in bidding on product lines. The intelligent long view was to say that despite the pick-up trucks high profitability we want to diverse into more economical or experimental product lines. The union has not pushed for this rather being content with the idea that gas guzzling vehicles would remain popular and create the high volume of employees despite the obvious realization that a combination of oil prices and environmental concerns made their product line an eventual dinosaur.

Congruently over the last ten years both the UAW and CAW have been on an allegorical Bataan Death March trading off short experience and new employees by surrendering union content in the products in exchange of good wage and benefit increases for their long term membership. I believe that the union content of the average GM car is bordering on 12% down from 70% plus back in the 1960's. It's really only been in the last 5 years that the unions have had to agree to freezes simply because at some point you can't support the infrastructure if your content hits a certain watermark.

So it isn't entirely the fault of the unions but they certainly played a strong hand in this current situation.