Bush on Auschwitz
- Thread starter jwmorrice
- Start date
I sort of agree with you Lanc, my family barely survived the Allied carpet bombings and the subsequent rape campaigns of the Liri Valley. I'm sure they were shocked and confused as to why the Anglo - Americans were so inhuman .They had no knowledge of what happened to Coventry and other British cities.LancsLad said:
As for Bush's comments, that's hardly surprising. Prescott Bush had no use for FDR.
The Battle of Rome certainly was bloody. As to a "rape campaign" one is one to many, however, I don't believe you'll be able to provide collaboration that rapes were higher there than elsewhere in Italy or France during the Allied invasions, or that allied troops behaved in a manner worse than other troops, or that the allied 14th Army Group took a wink and nod attitude towards rape. Indeed, almost the opposite, one of the major concerns of allied commanders were marriages and preventing the same.Insidious Von said:
As to the President's remarks I find it interesting that most worldwide press coverage feels that the President was genuinely moved and the comment was to be interpreted in that light, a very different attitude to that held by the majority in this thread.
Ugh?Aardvark154 said:
Aardvark since I'm in a good mood I'll reserve flaming you to a crisp. You make assumptions and come across like the Swede who tells the Pole that his hardships were minimal during WW II. Since I was referring to the Monte Cassino campaign, not Rome, I would suggest that you don't patronize and that you keep your mouth shut.
...at least Lanc knows better.
Insidious Von said:
Was that a sideways complement or what????????????
War tends to bring out a lot of societies lower emotions and I'm not saying that we English are saints but on balance I think our lot treated civilians in combattant areas a lot better than the germans or russians did. The British Army had severe punishmnt procedures in place for those who abused non combattants. I'm sure there were exceptions but the Forces generally conducted themselves within the rules.
Tell us, pray, what that has to do with it? Who cares a rats' ass ifAardvark154 said:
President Bush was moved by the displays or not. Fact is he is
responsible for a government that condones torture.
It has been amply documented, that Hitler on a personal social level was
a civilized and caring individual.
My apologies for having caused offense that was not my intent. The Monte Cassino Campaign is generally considered (in Anglo-American historiography) part of the Battle of Rome. Not knowing to what you specifically referred I chose to use the term for the larger campaign. As I wrote, one rape is one rape to many. However, how do you want me to interpret your remark about "subsequent rape campaigns of the Liri Valley" other than a statement that this was a deliberate policy on the part of the 14th Army Group?Insidious Von said:
The President's comment was about Auschwitz, it is you who chose to extrapolate this to Iraq and other matters. This is an entirely different thrust than given to the remark by most/a great many news outlets.danmand said:
That comment is even more ironic, considering the Bush family did business with the Nazis:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1312540,00.html
Some of that stuff was classified for a while, if I remember right.
Oh and did any of you know the "big blue" had a hand in Auschwitz too?
http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/articles/auschwitz.html
Little known facts neither of these are very proud of, I'm sure.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1312540,00.html
Some of that stuff was classified for a while, if I remember right.
Oh and did any of you know the "big blue" had a hand in Auschwitz too?
http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/articles/auschwitz.html
Little known facts neither of these are very proud of, I'm sure.
"Did Business with the Nazis" is a suggestive heading.Mike said:
It fails, however, to mention that it was not Prescott Bush personally who was involved but rather that he was a member of the Board of Directors of two New York Investment Banking firms Brown Brothers Harriman (as in Avril major Democratic Party wheeler and dealer), and Union Banking Corporation which were acting on behalf of the German industrialist, Fritz Thyssen. This is like saying that the members of the Board of Directors of IBM where personaly doing business with the Nazis or knew of the use to which IBM products were being made.
As the Anti-Defamation League has stated “Prescott Bush was neither a Nazi nor a Nazi sympathiser.”
Hindsight is always 20/20, I'm sure I'm not the only one here to have experienced this.
Aardvark I apologize for my outburst...but allow me to clarify.
After the Germans withdrew from the Liri Valley, the British moved in to occupy the area and an outbreak of rape occurred. To the locals those commiting acts of rape were known as "Marrochini", (North Africans) whom the Italians had been colonial masters (Libya). They were in fact Gorkhas, fierce mountain warriors from North India bestriding Nepal and Bhutan, whom the British had used to spearhead the battles. What incensed the locals wasn't that the rapes occurred but that the British commanders appeared powerless to stop them.
In battle the Gorkhas were as merciless as they were fearless and were known for leaving a calling card. They would capture a German soldier and flay him alive. The still alive skinless man was left to be found by German soldiers on patrol. The intent was to terrify the Germans into surrender but it had the opposite effect. They fought with disspassionate ruthlessness and stopped taking prisoners. The counter assaults were lead by the Hermann Gohring Divisions (German Marines) and the fighting would often degenerate into hand to hand combat.
It's only recently that British historians have come to terms with what the Battle of Monte Cassino was: The Battle of the Somme of WW II.
After the Germans withdrew from the Liri Valley, the British moved in to occupy the area and an outbreak of rape occurred. To the locals those commiting acts of rape were known as "Marrochini", (North Africans) whom the Italians had been colonial masters (Libya). They were in fact Gorkhas, fierce mountain warriors from North India bestriding Nepal and Bhutan, whom the British had used to spearhead the battles. What incensed the locals wasn't that the rapes occurred but that the British commanders appeared powerless to stop them.
In battle the Gorkhas were as merciless as they were fearless and were known for leaving a calling card. They would capture a German soldier and flay him alive. The still alive skinless man was left to be found by German soldiers on patrol. The intent was to terrify the Germans into surrender but it had the opposite effect. They fought with disspassionate ruthlessness and stopped taking prisoners. The counter assaults were lead by the Hermann Gohring Divisions (German Marines) and the fighting would often degenerate into hand to hand combat.
It's only recently that British historians have come to terms with what the Battle of Monte Cassino was: The Battle of the Somme of WW II.
Insidious Von said:
One of my uncles served in Burma during the war with Gurkhas. They were a fiercely loyal and terrifyingly proficient as a fighting force. To a pasty young Brit from the North they were such that he was glad they were on our side.
Again Von, I apologize, it's sometimes easy to become insensitive and to think too much in the abstract in these threads. This experience was horrible and nothing I can say will change that, I can see how given what I wrote I gave offense.Insidious Von said:
I agree that the Monte Cassino Campaign was along with Stalingrad the bloodiest of the European Theatre of WWII, I find the Somme analogy apt.
What I saw quoted was an aside to the Secretary of State "We should have bombed it" which was overheard by reporters. It may be subtle but I believe that's a different thing than saying "I would have bombed it."danmand said:
insidious,
a minor correction and some details.
1. The rapists were Morrocans, Algerians, and other Africans - I believe Tunisians, for instance.
2. They were attached to the French Expeditionary Corps.
3. The same "troops" were guilty of a similar attrocity in Freudenstadt at a much later date.
4. In the region of Monte Cassino it is estimated some 2,000 women were raped at this time. Some 800 men were killed trying to defend those women.
a minor correction and some details.
1. The rapists were Morrocans, Algerians, and other Africans - I believe Tunisians, for instance.
2. They were attached to the French Expeditionary Corps.
3. The same "troops" were guilty of a similar attrocity in Freudenstadt at a much later date.
4. In the region of Monte Cassino it is estimated some 2,000 women were raped at this time. Some 800 men were killed trying to defend those women.
Outrageous! TQM am I correct in presuming that this was a Free French Unit nominally under General De Gaulle?TQM said:
I think you are slightly off base on this TQM.
Yes, Marrochini, participated in the atrocities but there is no mention of French aquiesence in the local records.
I also didn't mention that friendly firefights broke out between the participants and the Polish contingent who attempted to stop them. The Poles played a significant role in driving the Germans from the Liri Valley but did not stoop to rape.
It's also been suggested that British command acquiesced to Gorkhas "right to plunder" as part of the deal that got them to Central Italy.
And, yes Lanc, the Gorkhas did "bring it" to the Japanese in Burma.
Most of my information is based on first hand accounts. I will be in Cassino in September and will delve into the local War Archives.
Yes, Marrochini, participated in the atrocities but there is no mention of French aquiesence in the local records.
I also didn't mention that friendly firefights broke out between the participants and the Polish contingent who attempted to stop them. The Poles played a significant role in driving the Germans from the Liri Valley but did not stoop to rape.
It's also been suggested that British command acquiesced to Gorkhas "right to plunder" as part of the deal that got them to Central Italy.
And, yes Lanc, the Gorkhas did "bring it" to the Japanese in Burma.
Most of my information is based on first hand accounts. I will be in Cassino in September and will delve into the local War Archives.
Anti-Semitism was fashionable in the inter war years, anti Jew literature were best sellers in the years 1920 - 33. WW I had been a catastrophe and it was believed that Europe affluent Jews had profited from it. Prior to 1939, the tide of intolerance never waned, the KKK regularly held rallies in downtown Toronto. WW I propaganda was proven false and rumours about the mass extermination of Jews were taken with a grain of salt. To Western leaders what the Nazis were implementing was beyond their scope of comprehension. To Allied Bomber Command, the destruction of death camps was never considered.
The longest lasting tragedy of all this is that the urban German - Jewish intellectual class that produced Albert Einstein, Kurt Weill and Conrad Veidt is gone forever.
The longest lasting tragedy of all this is that the urban German - Jewish intellectual class that produced Albert Einstein, Kurt Weill and Conrad Veidt is gone forever.
Danmand, knowledge is never a waste of time.danmand said:
