It's a good feature to have if they built a tall tower right in front of the runway
Boeing 737 MAX Shocking Steep takeoff almost vertical Farnborough air show
- Thread starter Zaibetter
- Start date
The airplane was brand new, so general maintenance was not a factor.The above two posts certainly add additional information. I still, however, see it as mostly Lion Air. However, Boeing seemingly made some stupid decisions the rational for which I don't truly grasp.
There was a design and probably a manufacturing defect. Not the fault of Lionair.
Their pilots would have followed at least the Boeing designed B737 conversion course. If they didn't know about the behaviour of a malfunctioning Angle-of Attack sensor, then it would have been a problem with Boeing's basic training program. They probably figured that the probability of a situation like this happening was so low, that it wasn't worth training for it.
Engineers design airplanes. Engineers don't make mistakes.... at least not until shit happens.
Crew experience would be a factor. The captain had 6000 hours, and I bet that most of that was with big jets with the autopilot on. There will be more and more accidents because the level of experience of airline pilots in general is dropping. Those pilots who continued past 60, the previous mandatory retirement age, temporarily alleviating the looming pilot shortage, have now reached the new mandatory retirement age of 65.
6000 hours is a lot of time, so no lack of experience, but lots of high time pilots have crashed. As far as flying most of that with the autopilot on, that's almost every commercial airline pilot. You can't even properly hold straight and level in an airliner without autopilot. You'd be oscillating + or - 500 ft the entire way making the passengers sick without it. Very few airline pilots fly using any stick and rudder aircraft unless they do it as a hobby. As far as the training system goes, the way the Canadians and Americans do it is terrible in my opinion. Low wages, high training costs and no stability. Getting on with WestJet or Air Canada is like making the NHL if you go the civie route. Even becoming a pilot in the forces is no easy task, but the training there is excellent and you at least have some stability and a survivable income. The company academy system has proven to work for Lufthansa and Air France.The airplane was brand new, so general maintenance was not a factor.
There was a design and probably a manufacturing defect. Not the fault of Lionair.
Their pilots would have followed at least the Boeing designed B737 conversion course. If they didn't know about the behaviour of a malfunctioning Angle-of Attack sensor, then it would have been a problem with Boeing's basic training program. They probably figured that the probability of a situation like this happening was so low, that it wasn't worth training for it.
Engineers design airplanes. Engineers don't make mistakes.... at least not until shit happens.
Crew experience would be a factor. The captain had 6000 hours, and I bet that most of that was with big jets with the autopilot on. There will be more and more accidents because the level of experience of airline pilots in general is dropping. Those pilots who continued past 60, the previous mandatory retirement age, temporarily alleviating the looming pilot shortage, have now reached the new mandatory retirement age of 65.
The Lion Air 737 should have been grounded after the flight where the circuit breakers were pulled. Company gambled the next flight would be OK and didn't want to lose revenue, so there's lots of blame to go around.
The academy system at Air France worked real swell, did it, considering AF447 in the South Atlantic, and the A340 that went off the end in Toronto in a thunderstorm. Boils don't to inexperience, regardlees of all the mathematical formulas they learned and all the written exams they passed at the academy (Ecole Nationale d'Aviation Civile).6000 hours is a lot of time, so no lack of experience, but lots of high time pilots have crashed. As far as flying most of that with the autopilot on, that's almost every commercial airline pilot. You can't even properly hold straight and level in an airliner without autopilot. You'd be oscillating + or - 500 ft the entire way making the passengers sick without it. Very few airline pilots fly using any stick and rudder aircraft unless they do it as a hobby. As far as the training system goes, the way the Canadians and Americans do it is terrible in my opinion. Low wages, high training costs and no stability. Getting on with WestJet or Air Canada is like making the NHL if you go the civie route. Even becoming a pilot in the forces is no easy task, but the training there is excellent and you at least have some stability and a survivable income. The company academy system has proven to work for Lufthansa and Air France.
The Lion Air 737 should have been grounded after the flight where the circuit breakers were pulled. Company gambled the next flight would be OK and didn't want to lose revenue, so there's lots of blame to go around.
Compared to your (let me guess.)... 70 hours? 6000 hours is a lot of time, but not a lot of valuable time if you've rarely hand flown the aircraft ON INSTRUMENTS during that time. That's what a lot of these academy trained, hired from the street cadets wind up with after thousands of hours with the autopilot on most of the time: little hands on time, and an instrument scan that is no more.
Yes, you can fly straight and level without the autopilot, + or - 100 feet, and it's even easier when you use the flight director . Nobody is suggesting you do it for 10 hours in RVSM airspace though. And if you couldn't (+ or - 500 feet for example), you wouldn't pass your course. The problem is when you have system failures and the automation fails, as well illustrated by AF447, when more hands-on flying ON INSTRUMENTS experience would have made the difference.
Deterioration of instrument flying skills is one of the greatest hazard to airline jet operations, due to the autopilot being on most of the time, except take off and landing. If you have previous experience flying smaller less capable (no autopilot) airplanes in remote areas in shitty weather, that experience will stay with you in the jet world. Academy trained direct entry airline pilots don't have that experience to back them up with.
The Lionair crash was the result of a failure that the crew were unable to cope with. Boeing did not anticipate the consequence of this failure, so had no procedure prescribed for it. So the pilots were untrained for that failure.
I am a commercial rated pilot that never went in because of poor eyesight. 25 years ago, it made a difference in the early 90's when there were no jobs. Nowdays even the military accepts Lasik except for fast jets.The academy system at Air France worked real swell, did it, considering AF447 in the South Atlantic, and the A340 that went off the end in Toronto in a thunderstorm. Boils don't to inexperience, regardlees of all the mathematical formulas they learned and all the written exams they passed at the academy (Ecole Nationale d'Aviation Civile).
Compared to your (let me guess.)... 70 hours? 6000 hours is a lot of time, but not a lot of valuable time if you've rarely hand flown the aircraft ON INSTRUMENTS during that time. That's what a lot of these academy trained, hired from the street cadets wind up with after thousands of hours with the autopilot on most of the time: little hands on time, and an instrument scan that is no more.
Yes, you can fly straight and level without the autopilot, + or - 100 feet, and it's even easier when you use the flight director . Nobody is suggesting you do it for 10 hours in RVSM airspace though. And if you couldn't (+ or - 500 feet for example), you wouldn't pass your course. The problem is when you have system failures and the automation fails, as well illustrated by AF447, when more hands-on flying ON INSTRUMENTS experience would have made the difference.
Deterioration of instrument flying skills is one of the greatest hazard to airline jet operations, due to the autopilot being on most of the time, except take off and landing. If you have previous experience flying smaller less capable (no autopilot) airplanes in remote areas in shitty weather, that experience will stay with you in the jet world. Academy trained direct entry airline pilots don't have that experience to back them up with.
The Lionair crash was the result of a failure that the crew were unable to cope with. Boeing did not anticipate the consequence of this failure, so had no procedure prescribed for it. So the pilots were untrained for that failure.
Lots of high time pilots have piled aircraft in. Rob Loft had over 29,000 hours, was 50th on the seniority list of 4000 pilots and still crashed because he was more worried about a burnt out light instead of flying the aircraft. He wasn't academy trained. Malburn McBroom also piled it in and he had 27,000 hours. Again, he became distracted and failed to fly the aircraft. Also not academy trained. For every accident you blame on off the street academy trained pilot, there is a non company or academy trained pilot who has also crashed. If those two Captains had listened to their peon co pilots with LESS time, there may not have been crashes. The military takes people off the street with no flight experience, and they turn out very good pilots.
6000 hrs is right in the range for a 737 Captain. Captains with more hours move up to larger aircraft if the airliners have them if they were hired at the right time. You thinking they should have more on a 737 makes you sound like you're bitter about flying smaller aircraft with more time.
There is plenty of blame to go around in the Lion Air crash.
You sound bitter yourself. What did you do after not being able to get on with the airlines? Did you still continue to fly commercially?I am a commercial rated pilot that never went in because of poor eyesight. 25 years ago, it made a difference in the early 90's when there were no jobs. Nowdays even the military accepts Lasik except for fast jets.
Lots of high time pilots have piled aircraft in. Rob Loft had over 29,000 hours, was 50th on the seniority list of 4000 pilots and still crashed because he was more worried about a burnt out light instead of flying the aircraft. He wasn't academy trained. Malburn McBroom also piled it in and he had 27,000 hours. Again, he became distracted and failed to fly the aircraft. Also not academy trained. For every accident you blame on off the street academy trained pilot, there is a non company or academy trained pilot who has also crashed. If those two Captains had listened to their peon co pilots with LESS time, there may not have been crashes. The military takes people off the street with no flight experience, and they turn out very good pilots.
6000 hrs is right in the range for a 737 Captain. Captains with more hours move up to larger aircraft if the airliners have them if they were hired at the right time. You thinking they should have more on a 737 makes you sound like you're bitter about flying smaller aircraft with more time.
There is plenty of blame to go around in the Lion Air crash.
You're comparing apples and oranges. The 2 examples you give had nothing to do with manual and instrument flying skills, which is one of the factors of the Lionair crash. It had to do with the lack of crew resources management, and that was the culture of the time. Great progress has been made since then in order to correct that cultural problem. The Lionair accident was not likely caused by a CRM problem; it was caused by a failure that went beyond their capabilities to deal with it. As fewer and fewer pilots acquire actual manual instrument flying experience in general aviation, there will be more and more accidents related to manual handling problems. Academy trained push-button pilots will have trouble dealing with problems that have to do with reversion to manual flight, especially in instrument conditions. Such would have been the issue with the crew of that airplane, so 6000 hours of punching buttons on the CDU doesn't help you when you wind up without an autopilot, because it's not just the time, but what you did during that time. Ever do an NDB approach at night in a Twin Otter in the middle of nowhere in a snowstorm? It's not the type of experience those academy trained jet jockeys will have experienced before.
IIRC, the previous day, a different crew had the same problem, but managed to retain control, while the passengers were scared out of their minds. The reported problem was not understood by maintenance, and they didn't fix the problem.
And BTW, ex-military pilots aren't all what you claim they are. Abilities vary greatly. Some just passed minimum standard and aren't all that great. Any can blunder just as well as any other pilot, due to lack of study, practice, sleep, experience, personal issues or bad judgement.
I just have a commercial license. Never tried for an airline because I never stood a chance with my eyesight. Flying privately in remote areas, I've flown at or below the minimums many times, and have been on flights, especially in the north where they regularly fly below minimums. I fly as a hobby and keep it at that. Without saying too much about my background, got my license as a teenager and met many guys my age who were also getting their license the same time. I would see them over the next decade, and watched how a fair number poured their heart and soul into trying to get a decent job, and only a handful making it. Some very skilled guys never made it. A few died bush flying. Some entered the military and have very interesting careers. One has done very well entering the military, and is now in charge of a squadron and is only in their early 40's. That person's older sibling did not get in, and is PIC on a Pilatus. Some were lucky enough to get on with Cathay Pacific and Air Canada at a young age, and others worked for Wardair and Canada 3000 and were never able to recover. You career also ends with certain medical issues. It is an all or none career based mostly on seniority and not ability, with timing and luck overriding everything, so I don't feel I missed out. I continued on in school and am now working as a manager and have earned over $100,000 each year over the past ten years. Airline Captains earn much more than that, but the chances of not making it outweigh the chances of making it and some go through a decade of poverty with no payoff.You sound bitter yourself. What did you do after not being able to get on with the airlines? Did you still continue to fly commercially?
You're comparing apples and oranges. The 2 examples you give had nothing to do with manual and instrument flying skills, which is one of the factors of the Lionair crash. It had to do with the lack of crew resources management, and that was the culture of the time. Great progress has been made since then in order to correct that cultural problem. The Lionair accident was not likely caused by a CRM problem; it was caused by a failure that went beyond their capabilities to deal with it. As fewer and fewer pilots acquire actual manual instrument flying experience in general aviation, there will be more and more accidents related to manual handling problems. Academy trained push-button pilots will have trouble dealing with problems that have to do with reversion to manual flight, especially in instrument conditions. Such would have been the issue with the crew of that airplane, so 6000 hours of punching buttons on the CDU doesn't help you when you wind up without an autopilot, because it's not just the time, but what you did during that time. Ever do an NDB approach at night in a Twin Otter in the middle of nowhere in a snowstorm? It's not the type of experience those academy trained jet jockeys will have experienced before.
IIRC, the previous day, a different crew had the same problem, but managed to retain control, while the passengers were scared out of their minds. The reported problem was not understood by maintenance, and they didn't fix the problem.
And BTW, ex-military pilots aren't all what you claim they are. Abilities vary greatly. Some just passed minimum standard and aren't all that great. Any can blunder just as well as any other pilot, due to lack of study, practice, sleep, experience, personal issues or bad judgement.
The military provides excellent training and the pilots are given a good baseline of experience. What the pilot chooses to do after training depends on the individual. No different than a private sector pilot. There are pilots in the military and private sector who don't even like flying any more. It's just a job for them. Despite having people like that and all those academy trained pilots, flying is safer now than it ever was.
As I've said before, there's plenty of blame to go around in the Lion Air crash, and pilots were only one variable. Lion Air management and mechanics should have pulled the plane from service until the problem was discovered, but they didn't because it doesn't make money sitting on the ground. Boeing tracks every single flight in their modern aircraft from their own facility. They also had a chance to pull the plane the first time.
It's true that fewer and fewer young people are attracted to aviation. Unless daddy's got money, it's expensive to get the basic Commercial Multi-IFR, and once you're done, you have no experience to be hired, among all the other ones in the same boat. However, there is now a looming pilot shortage, and already, Northern air carriers are having trouble finding experienced people to fly their planes. The Northern environment is a lot more difficult than flying for a big southern airline.I just have a commercial license. Never tried for an airline because I never stood a chance with my eyesight. Flying privately in remote areas, I've flown at or below the minimums many times, and have been on flights, especially in the north where they regularly fly below minimums. I fly as a hobby and keep it at that. Without saying too much about my background, got my license as a teenager and met many guys my age who were also getting their license the same time. I would see them over the next decade, and watched how a fair number poured their heart and soul into trying to get a decent job, and only a handful making it. Some very skilled guys never made it. A few died bush flying. Some entered the military and have very interesting careers. One has done very well entering the military, and is now in charge of a squadron and is only in their early 40's. That person's older sibling did not get in, and is PIC on a Pilatus. Some were lucky enough to get on with Cathay Pacific and Air Canada at a young age, and others worked for Wardair and Canada 3000 and were never able to recover. You career also ends with certain medical issues. It is an all or none career based mostly on seniority and not ability, with timing and luck overriding everything, so I don't feel I missed out. I continued on in school and am now working as a manager and have earned over $100,000 each year over the past ten years. Airline Captains earn much more than that, but the chances of not making it outweigh the chances of making it and some go through a decade of poverty with no payoff.
The military provides excellent training and the pilots are given a good baseline of experience. What the pilot chooses to do after training depends on the individual. No different than a private sector pilot. There are pilots in the military and private sector who don't even like flying any more. It's just a job for them. Despite having people like that and all those academy trained pilots, flying is safer now than it ever was.
As I've said before, there's plenty of blame to go around in the Lion Air crash, and pilots were only one variable. Lion Air management and mechanics should have pulled the plane from service until the problem was discovered, but they didn't because it doesn't make money sitting on the ground. Boeing tracks every single flight in their modern aircraft from their own facility. They also had a chance to pull the plane the first time.
There are a lot fewer self improvers (as the British call them), and the airlines are starting to look at the aviation colleges, some who have their flying costs subsidized by the government. More and more can look forward to getting an airline job right after graduation. In fact, Jazz has been hiring 300 hour pilots from colleges, and Sunwing have already hired 4 direct entry graduates from an aviation college/university aviation program:
For those who can't go the college route, the question is: 'should I spend my $100,000 on pilot training and risk wasting it all if I fail the course, blow my medical or don't get a job, or spend it to get an MBA and get into the 6 figures right almost right away?' Few and fewer young people are putting their money on the former. So more and more airline pilots will come directly from colleges, but without the general aviation background that most of us have gone through, that gave us the breath of experience that kept us out of trouble in our airline careers. I'm telling you, this lack of hands-on flying is going to result in an increased accident rate. And right off the bat, I can think of 4 737NG accidents in the last 5 years, where they literally augured in because of inadequate instrument flying skills.
I know that some individual companies monitor their own aircraft in real time, but have never heard Boeing directly doing the same; in any case, it costs money and not every airline does this. Even if this were so, Boeing is not the police and they can't order customers to stop flying their planes. They rather establish maintenance practices and procedures that the airlines then follow, according to national airworthiness standards.
