bluffing at no limit holdem

[booboobear]

I played limit holem last 2 weeks thinking of trying no limit this weekend , I was wondering if it's good to bluff pre flop with nothing or maybe A Q OR A 8 what are odds of bluff working , of course the pot wont be high.

ALSO WHAT ABOUT LARGE BETS IN B JACK THEN WIN 1 HAND AND LEAVE .

 

[Ranger68]

The odds of a bluff working depend entirely upon how you play it, how you've played beforehand, and the rest of the table.
There's very little way to quantify it.

As far as large bets in blackjack - it's the best strategy when the house is against you - one big bet, then leaving. ..... Of course, that's just another way of saying you shouldn't gamble as much.

 

[jeeperz]

Betting pre-flop is NOT a bluff. You are bluffing when the cards you are holding haven't hit with what's on the board.

 

[MarkII]

As for blackjack, guys at the table will be pissed at you, if you only play one hand, but to each his own, in the end it is all about making money, but you jumping in can screw up the whole "shoe", especially if it has been going well, real players will absolutely "hate" you.

I'm not much of a card player at all. But I have a friend who does this for a living. Can't play in Vegas, Reno or Atlantic City any more but he hits the regional casinos every day. (Why the regionals are easier I don't know as they all seem to be run by very few gambling companies.)

But he taught me this plus minus system for BJ..he had it down to an art. It wasn't card counting per say but simply keeping track of whats left in the shoe. 10's and over were a plus, below that was a minus. Therefore as the shoe came to mid point he had a better than average idea of what was left and bet accordingly.

He told me he often stood back and entered a game late knowing the shoe had a certain percentage of cards left. Bet and then left right away.

I wonder if these guys you're speaking about are following a similar system?

I only gamble in the tropics...I pretend I'm James Bond..lose my 200 bucks stumble back to my cabana and snore all night!

A gambler I'm not!

M2

 

[danmand]

Bluffing is much overrated in poker, or maybe I should say that it is generally used too much. You will be called most of the time, especially at the low denomination tables which you are likely to frequent as a beginner or depending on your stomach even as a more experienced player.

For a bluf to be effective, it has to be a large enough bet to hurt both you and the opponent.

 

[jeeperz]

Bluffing works best when you are in position. By that I mean when you have the button or are close to the last to act. The check raise is usually pretty effective too. It also helps if a scare card hits, e.g. The third card of a particular suite. Bluffing also works better if you raised pre-flop because your opponents may put you on a big hand like a pocket pair.

 

[Ranger68]

I'm not much of a card player at all. But I have a friend who does this for a living. Can't play in Vegas, Reno or Atlantic City any more but he hits the regional casinos every day. (Why the regionals are easier I don't know as they all seem to be run by very few gambling companies.)

But he taught me this plus minus system for BJ..he had it down to an art. It wasn't card counting per say but simply keeping track of whats left in the shoe. 10's and over were a plus, below that was a minus. Therefore as the shoe came to mid point he had a better than average idea of what was left and bet accordingly.

He told me he often stood back and entered a game late knowing the shoe had a certain percentage of cards left. Bet and then left right away.

I wonder if these guys you're speaking about are following a similar system?

I only gamble in the tropics...I pretend I'm James Bond..lose my 200 bucks stumble back to my cabana and snore all night!

A gambler I'm not!

M2

This is card counting.
And it's not as effective as you might think.

 

[homonger]

Bluffing is much overrated in poker, or maybe I should say that it is generally used too much. You will be called most of the time, especially at the low denomination tables which you are likely to frequent as a beginner or depending on your stomach even as a more experienced player.

For a bluf to be effective, it has to be a large enough bet to hurt both you and the opponent.

I would generally concur with danmand. A lot of times, when you see guys bluffing on TV, it looks cool, but because the televised tournaments are so heavily edited, you really don't see the context surrounding the bluff. Bluffing is definitely part of the game, and any savvy player will make it a part of his/her repertoire. It is possible to both bluff too much, and to bluff too little.

But I also think it depends on what you consider bluffing. There are a lot of situations in NLHE, where you may be betting with the worst hand, but because of your previous actions, your stack, your table image, or your position, you can win a pot. A simple example would be the so-called continuation bet, where if you have raised pre-flop, you generally bet again after the flop, regardless of whether the flop has hit you or not. Another example is raising on the button to steal the blinds (this is really more of a tournament play). I don't consider these bluffs, I consider this simply playing the game.

In short, there is no cut and dried simple answer to your question. There are too many situational factors at play. But in general, I would say that any good player has to be capable of bluffing on occasion.

 

[MarkII]

This is card counting.
And it's not as effective as you might think.

Ranger...I am only telling you what he told me. I have tried it with very limited success while in Nassau. The free drinks made me lose track!

But this guy I knew..made a living off it. Flew in First class for a Ontario casino opening...I think they call it the "candy store" period?

I hear from him once and a while...he's still renting huge boats and living the good life. It could all be bullshit..I have no idea.

But the idea of keeping track of the plus minus in the shoe does seem like a possibiiitly. Can't imagine the concentration that would be needed.

M2

 

[homonger]

Card counting does work, but it takes a lot of concentration and a lot of patience. A deep bankroll helps too.

 

[Oil Please]

Card counting does not help in nlhe.

 

[Ranger68]

Ranger...I am only telling you what he told me. I have tried it with very limited success while in Nassau. The free drinks made me lose track!

But this guy I knew..made a living off it. Flew in First class for a Ontario casino opening...I think they call it the "candy store" period?

I hear from him once and a while...he's still renting huge boats and living the good life. It could all be bullshit..I have no idea.

But the idea of keeping track of the plus minus in the shoe does seem like a possibiiitly. Can't imagine the concentration that would be needed.

M2

He's bullshitting you. This is BASIC CARD-COUNTING, and it won't make you money in the long-run UNLESS you limit yourself to places where it can work reliably - single or double-deck shoes - AND you use this strategy to alter your play, not just your bets. You CANNOT "make a living off it".

Hell, *I* use this method. It's fine for what it is, but is UNABLE to swing the balance in your favour more than five or ten percent of the time.

Sorry.

 

[homonger]

The simple hi/lo method of card counting can work--the MIT blackjack team from the 90's used this method, and they used in on multi-deck shoes. But as stated, even the best counters encounter no more than an advantage of a few percentage points, which means you have to bet large amounts of money during those times when you do have an advantage to make it work.

 

[Ranger68]

They did it by working *in teams*. And they were all banned from Vegas as a result.
A single guy just can't do it on his own.

 

[homonger]

They did it by working *in teams*. And they were all banned from Vegas as a result.
A single guy just can't do it on his own.

Yes, their team concept was highly effective for awhile, but they got greedy.

I will grant you that is a lot more difficult for an individual to "beat" the game, but it is possible. There are professional blackjack players out there. But the problem is, these guys are finding it harder and harder to find a place to play, which is why, overall, I prefer poker. No one ever asks any of those guys to leave.

I was wondering if it's good to bluff pre flop with nothing or maybe A Q OR A 8 what are odds of bluff working , of course the pot wont be high.

Getting back to the original poster's question, there is a big difference between AQ vs. A8, and it also depends on the level of action to you and your position. If it is an unopened pot to you in late position, your AQ or even A8 figures to be favored over most random hands in the blinds, and so, a raise could likely take the pot. If there are a series of limpers to you in late position, a raise with AQ might win the pot, but be reminded that the more limpers there are in a pot, the more attractive the pot odds are for any of them to want to stay. You also have to beware that some guys like to limp in early position with big hands like AA, KK, or AK, just waiting for a guy like you to raise, so they can re-raise. I recently was playing in AC and made a modest raise at a loose table with KK in early position. I got 2 or 3 callers and then the big blind went all-in, trying to scoop the "dead money" in the pot. I wasn't trying to trap anyone, but I was happy to call with my Kings and everyone else folded. He had AQ and I won a big pot.

In general, these pre-flop raises work better in tournaments than in cash games, because in the tournaments, the blinds escalate, and therefore it can be worth your while to win them. In cash games, I don't tend to try to win pots pre-flop, unless there is a fair amount of "dead money" already in them, and I think I can get my opponents to fold.

 

[PHNINE]

I prefer poker as well, espesherry when playing with Homonger.

 

[danmand]

same here.

 

[VERYBADBOY]

When bluffing you are playing the person rather than the cards, although they will come into play as that is how the mind works.

10's and over were a plus, below that was a minus. Therefore as the shoe came to mid point he had a better than average idea of what was left and bet accordingly.

Actually you got the first part correct:

10s to Aces = -1
7s, 8s and 9s = 0
2s to 6s = +1

The odds are in your favour maybe 1% over the house, which always has a slight edge.

They work in groups because you bet low when the count is not in your favour, when it is you bet high ... it is a giveaway to casinos that you are a card counter that is why you need the extra manpower.

Working solo still has its advantages but the risk of getting caught are higher.

Remember though that you are usually counting on 5 or 6 decks ... thats where the counting, well really the math, has to kick in for it to work.

VBB

 

[Ranger68]

Actually you got the first part correct:

10s to Aces = -1
7s, 8s and 9s = 0
2s to 6s = +1

There are MANY different systems. This is just one of them.

The odds are in your favour maybe 1% over the house, which always has a slight edge.

Do you mean you have a 1% edge? Or the house does? Just counting cards gives you NO edge, unless you play it right. Even if you alter your strategy perfectly, the house maintains the edge in a five or six-deck shoe practically all the time.

They work in groups because you bet low when the count is not in your favour, when it is you bet high ... it is a giveaway to casinos that you are a card counter that is why you need the extra manpower.

Yup.

Working solo still has its advantages but the risk of getting caught are higher.

There are EXCEEDINGLY FEW blackjack players who make money doing this solo. Most professional players are tournament players.

Remember though that you are usually counting on 5 or 6 decks ... thats where the counting, well really the math, has to kick in for it to work.
VBB

Not just the counting or the math. It's VERY RARE for the edge to swing *even marginally* in your favour in this situation. You are, the rest of the time, shaving the house edge by altering your play style when the shoe is not in your favour. If you have *lots of money*, *lots of time*, and *lots of skill*, you *may* be able to make money at it occasionally.

I know it's not sexy, and it's not the myth.
But it's the truth.
The casinos would LOVE for everyone to think that just by using the above counting system that they can swing the edge in their favour. It's bollocks.

 

[booboobear]

If you are playing at Casino Niagara or Fallsview Casino you may get called quite a bit, games at these casinos are very loose, especially at Casino Niagara because they have a $1-$2 NL game, very cheap to buy in, and $100 is maximum buy in, guys will call all the time, especially to see what your hand is. As for blackjack, guys at the table will be pissed at you, if you only play one hand, but to each his own, in the end it is all about making money, but you jumping in can screw up the whole "shoe", especially if it has been going well, real players will absolutely "hate" you.

I understand what you are saying about B jack but I think a lot of amateur players a t bj ack don't realize if it is a constant shuffle shoe which most are now at niagara you can't screw up a shoe after each hand it is a new game . I actually prefer to play 1 on 1 against a dealer so far always better luck. Personally I don't care if someome plays 1 hand or 50 or hits when the " theory " says you don't . for the average time people spend at a table it makes no difference . The cards don't know what they are supposed to do.