Blacks only graduation at U of T...WTF!

[GPIDEAL]

Can't believe I'm even bothering to wade into another Race Thread but as one of the few Black TERB members I guess I should at least pipe up a little.

In this world I would say the majority of people try/prefer to surround themselves with their "fellows": some define this as a shared cultural background/religion/ethnicity; others (and more progressive people in my opinion) define it more by like-mindedness / kindred spirits (race-independent). I am the latter, these Black students are the former. I could cite cultural associations, or Indian / Chinese neighborhoods, etc. but that's not the real point here, any cultural grouping example will do. Personally I can't stand the artificial divides we impose upon ourselves: as a Black Engineering Student I vehemently rejected ALL invitations to Black Science events simply because I'm tired of people treating my above-average intellect as some kind of freak occurrence and being lauded for it: there are plenty of smart/capable people in the world and to be taken aback when one happens to be Black is insulting. The amount of times I've been told "I speak so well..." (sub-consciously insert "... for a Black" here) it drove me insane.

I wish for nothing more for a world in which people don't balk at the fact a Black guy gets a Masters Degree in Engineering - their reaction should be "big whoop, of course Black people are capable of this". But you'd be surprised how many people are still taken aback by this meager accomplishment - you'd think I was fresh off the boat and still in chains instead of a native-born Canadian with a middle class family upbringing... And the Black Community can often be guilty of the same lowered expectations of themselves, hence their insipid need to celebrate any achievement in the hopes it will encourage other Black children to do the same. I get why they might think that way when growing up they can be pigeon-holed by everyone they encounter, but I wish they'd get angry enough to truly effect change by refusing to be pigeon-holed by ANYONE and fight tooth & nail to achieve, even if it's just to spit their diplomas in the faces of those that didn't think them capable. THAT would be a cultural victory - each Black person temporarily (at least) renouncing all stereotypes associated with them and disprove Whites/Others once and for all. No acting the fool, no basketball, no Baby Mommas, no ghetto culture, no bastardization of the English language... Just Black people achieving and shrugging it off nonchalantly as though it was nothing unusual because that's how it should have always BEEN had we come to this New World under better/equal circumstances.

Lastly, just remember that a lot of stuff went down a mere 50-70 years ago that people are still reeling from: Segregation just finally ended in the States 50+ years ago, Women have finally been recognized in the workforce yet must still fight tooth and nail to debunk wage inequality and encourage more young women into the "hard sciences", the Holocaust was only 70+ years ago, and there are even Japanese Canadians that grew up in Canadian Internment camps in WWII (my karate instructor amongst them). So if you were to round up a group of 80+ year-old men, women, Jews, Japanese and blacks there's a good chance you could still be told first-hand accounts of: being forcibly displaced/imprisoned, not being allowed to use a water fountain, being casually sexually harassed at every turn and being discouraged from educating themselves/advancing their career. The world hasn't changed THAT much yet, but we're working on it, and hopefully we'll eventually all work on it TOGETHER.

All valid points.

Look at Jamaican-Canadian Michael Lee-Chin who could be any one's role model.

 

[GPIDEAL]

Holy shit fuji, you're off your rocker on this one.

Do you think we should hold modern Germans accountable for the World Wars too, for the rest of time? Or that Germany owes never-ending compensation to the Jews?
Maybe Irishmen deserve to have their 19th-century struggles repeatedly honoured in the States, while we're at it? Or Chinamen in the wild west?

Recognizing perpetual victimhood will not solve this issue.

Oh God, please don't go further back to the Roman Empire. izza: Italians are very lovable and caring people.

 

[rhuarc29]

They must still feel that there's still systemic discrimination, which is quite possible if not probable. (We have affirmative action hiring policies in government. Obviously, it's not just those who are African descent that face discrimination).

Feeling like there's systemic discrimination doesn't mean there's systemic discrimination, nor does having affirmative action hiring policies in government mean those policies are anything other than "good" publicity. "Look at how diverse we are! We must be progressive as fuck!!"

Actual systemic racism should be dealt with harshly, but it has devolved into a crying wolf scenario, where things that aren't even racism are being claimed as systemic racism.

 

[rhuarc29]

Oh God, please don't go further back to the Roman Empire. Italians are very lovable and caring people.

If I had to go back that far to prove my point, then someone's trying too hard to not understand it. lol

 

[GPIDEAL]

Feeling like there's systemic discrimination doesn't mean there's systemic discrimination, nor does having affirmative action hiring policies in government mean those policies are anything other than "good" publicity. "Look at how diverse we are! We must be progressive as fuck!!"

Actual systemic racism should be dealt with harshly, but it has devolved into a crying wolf scenario, where things that aren't even racism are being claimed as systemic racism.

I meant that they feel it because they perceive it or have experienced it. How can you as a white person know how they feel or experience? We have affirmative action as a result of systemic racism. Not because it just looks good.

 

[fuji]

Yes, a part of it was actions made by white people in generations past, what's your point? We can't go back. It's done, and no one alive today is responsible for that.
But there is no helping the Native peoples unless they assimilate as Canadians or cede their own nation apart from Canada. Neither of those are likely to happen, so this problem's not exactly going away any time soon.
Their current issue is both their "apartness" from Canada, and their proximity to it. Their identity crisis.

Not generations past. The victims and perps are still with us. Residential school system operated until 1996. The last batch of direct victims are only in their 20s and 30s now.

More to the point, generations upon generation of active requires generations to undo. Many of the victims are indirect, kids who were abused by uncles who had been abused by the schools, etc., and many of those are still kids today.

 

[frankcastle]

The problem that I see is that people feel blacks "just need to pull up their bootstraps" and that's exactly what these graduates have done. I see nothing wrong in celebrating something positive like academic success. Obviously, it's a big deal for some people in the black community otherwise why have the celebration?

Sure whites would probably get shot down if they asked for one but I bet other minorities would be granted a grad if they asked for it.

As someone else kept saying "take the good with the bad" well that goes both ways. So whites are out of luck. But they can take solace that their list of good is much longer.

But here's another part that I think is overlooked in the "bootstrap" analogy...... society plays a big role too. To pretend their isn't racism on an individual as well as systemic level is downright wrong. Are things improving? Sure. But we don't have to look hard in our own backyard for examples of racism and discrimination. I don't think it is easy for non Natives to understand the destructive nature that residention schools had on a generation of children. Think about that for a minute a generation of people! People also talk about how Indians and Asians have improved their position much faster well that's because on average these parents tend to be better educated than blacks. So that means an Asian with poor English can still help their kid in math which is key for success in school. Blacks tend to come from more poorly educated backgrounds so their children will struggle in school. That's not an excuse but an explanation for a complex problem. There's more factors but I chose to just focus on education since this thread is about a black grad.

 

[rhuarc29]

I meant that they feel it because they perceive it or have experienced it. How can you as a white person know how they feel or experience? We have affirmative action as a result of systemic racism. Not because it just looks good.

None of the affirmative action I've seen has been a result of systemic racism. I don't rule out that it's been used legitimately in the past, but today it's more a legacy than a solution.

 

[rhuarc29]

Not generations past. The victims and perps are still with us. Residential school system operated until 1996. The last batch of direct victims are only in their 20s and 30s now.

More to the point, generations upon generation of active requires generations to undo. Many of the victims are indirect, kids who were abused by uncles who had been abused by the schools, etc., and many of those are still kids today.

Those schools were right in theory, very wrong in practice. I don't condone those actions, but to say 1996 was on the same level as earlier generations is misleading.
Like I said, I don't believe the government had the wrong idea, but you can't force a people to give up their culture, and you certainly can't do it the way they did. That said, assimilation IS the answer. It just has to come willingly.

 

[frankcastle]

No, we don't have to look far. However, as a black fellow member (ravencroft) mentioned, "...why impose divides upon themselves", "...above-average intellect as some form of freak occurrence and being lauded for it:...". Why would they want to segregate themselves, seems contrary to what not only they but most would want to see in this world. I don't understand what went through the minds of our ancestors. I don't understand the suffering blacks went/go through and I can't pretend to. I simply feel that a group separating themselves are not helping to change what divided lines exist but are only contributing to it.

IMO if you see nothing wrong with such events then you see nothing wrong with the divided lines that exist.


by ravencroft, "... Just Black people achieving and shrugging it off nonchalantly as though it was nothing unusual because that's how it should have always BEEN had we come to this New World under better/equal circumstances."

Amen.

it was nice for ravencroft to share but lets not make him the voice for all blacks.

i am fine with some divides.....there are plenty of them out there..... divides that dont hurt others i am fine with..... divides that harm not so much..... i am fine with boys and girls scouts, christian fellowships, chinese engineering socoety, carpenters unions, veterans groups, historical societies etc.... i tried to choose divides based on a wide variety of criteria

 

[Jasmine Raine]

it was nice for ravencroft to share but lets not make him the voice for all blacks.

Hahahhahahaha. That is funny. I am sorry. I was not going to comment after Ravencroft because honestly, what more needed to be said but you don't want this black mans response to speak for all black people but you, who if I not mistaken, are white - are suppose to able to speak for the black community? As well as the "insert other groups here" ?

You have to see the irony in that comment right???

I swear I am only laughing at it in a good way. Like a joking way. I am not challenging you or anything. I would like to think if we were having this convo in a pub, you would be able to laugh with me seeing the context in which I mean this post.

 

[ravencroft]

Hahahhahahaha. That is funny. I am sorry. I was not going to comment after Ravencroft because honestly, what more needed to be said but you don't want this black mans response to speak for all black people but you, who if I not mistaken, are white - are suppose to able to speak for the black community? As well as the "insert other groups here" ?

You have to see the irony in that comment right???

I swear I am only laughing at it in a good way. Like a joking way. I am not challenging you or anything. I would like to think if we were having this convo in a pub, you would be able to laugh with me seeing the context in which I mean this post.

Thanks for the chuckle Jessica, I too see the humor in it and mean no offense to frankcastle (and also take no offense).

I do not speak for all Black people... Heck growing up I was called "Sell-Out / Uncle Tom" about as much as I was called racial slurs so clearly I don't fit in on either side of the racial divide!

 

[slowandeasy]

I do not speak for all Black people... Heck growing up I was called "Sell-Out / Uncle Tom" about as much as I was called racial slurs so clearly I don't fit in on either side of the racial divide!

I was expecting someone to got that route.

 

[FAST]

Are you fine with racial divides because that's what this event and thread is about...no matter how one chooses to slice it this event is a racial divide.

Of coarse that is what it is,...a divide by race,...and nothing else.

 

[fuji]

Those schools were right in theory, very wrong in practice. I don't condone those actions, but to say 1996 was on the same level as earlier generations is misleading.
Like I said, I don't believe the government had the wrong idea, but you can't force a people to give up their culture, and you certainly can't do it the way they did. That said, assimilation IS the answer. It just has to come willingly.

Unbelievable.

Forcibly separating families is not right in principle and everyone involved should have been criminally charged.

At any rate on the original point this was not generations ago, it was recent, and it was a systematic attack on the family structure of native communities so it's really expected that those families are now broken.

 

[slowandeasy]

Unbelievable.

Forcibly separating families is not right in principle and everyone involved should have been criminally charged.

At any rate on the original point this was not generations ago, it was recent, and it was a systematic attack on the family structure of native communities so it's really expected that those families are now broken.

If you wish to discuss residential schools perhaps start a new thread, in the meantime you might want to give some thought on why an organization like CFS exists in today's society.

 

[fuji]

If you wish to discuss residential schools perhaps start a new thread, in the meantime you might want to give some thought on why an organization like CFS exists in today's society.

So here's the point I'm making:

When discrimination is as severe and institutionalized as what blacks or natives faced it takes on a whole other dimensions. It's not just that individuals face discrimination in their lives, though they do, it's the systematic destruction of their core social and family institutions, which results in damage that lasts across generations.

Blacks graduating from U of T didn't just have to overcome external biases. They had to navigate broken families and broken communities and an insidious antisocial culture that now exists as a cancer within their own society.

All that is the product of centuries, actually centuries, of systemic efforts by government and by the majority white culture to destroy them as people, destroy their families, and destroy their communities. Even if all external racism ceased today, which it hasn't, that internal damage is going to continue limiting them for more generations to come.

That's why it's different. That's why it's important to highlight the healthy, the successful, to double down where it works.

 

[slowandeasy]

So here's the point I'm making:

When discrimination is as severe and institutionalized as what blacks or natives faced it takes on a whole other dimensions. .

I will cut it off there just so I can say: I completely agree with you Fuji!! (wasn't so hard to do, and I don't feel unclean)

I even agree that it is a difficult thing to recover from , but I don't agree that it takes generations to repair the damage. I know you will disagree, but the proof is there in refugees and immigrants who have experienced the same or worse than our aboriginals.

Doubling down where it works is only valid if what you are doubling down on actually works. The culture of "celebrating everyone for their accomplishments" has merit, but only if it is part of an overall disciplined system that sets goals and objectives to recognize and reward high achievers.
The reason you don't see other ethnics asking for their special celebration is that most of them would be embarrassed to have one. Their attitudes are "we want to be recognized as the best in our field, not the best of our color". The whole "we don't have a championship, and every kid gets a trophy for participating" does not motivate people.

 

[frankcastle]

I will cut it off there just so I can say: I completely agree with you Fuji!! (wasn't so hard to do, and I don't feel unclean)

I even agree that it is a difficult thing to recover from , but I don't agree that it takes generations to repair the damage. I know you will disagree, but the proof is there in refugees and immigrants who have experienced the same or worse than our aboriginals.

Doubling down where it works is only valid if what you are doubling down on actually works. The culture of "celebrating everyone for their accomplishments" has merit, but only if it is part of an overall disciplined system that sets goals and objectives to recognize and reward high achievers.
The reason you don't see other ethnics asking for their special celebration is that most of them would be embarrassed to have one. Their attitudes are "we want to be recognized as the best in our field, not the best of our color". The whole "we don't have a championship, and every kid gets a trophy for participating" does not motivate people.

Yeah but what works for one group of people may not work for another. For example, the racism in North America towards Asians was bad (really bad) but it pales in comparison to lynching and slavery.

Different groups navigate society differently. If every group had the same outcomes and expectations then sociology would not be needed (mind you I think studying sociology as a degree is pretty much useless in terms of making money).

As an aside here's an article on how Tippi Hedron a socially conscious movie star helped give the US Vietnamese a boost

How Tippi Hedren made Vietnamese refugees into nail salon magnates

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32544343

Pretty cool. But it kind of illustrates how the Vietnamese were able to succeed BUT it took help.

You also have to be careful to speak for other ethnic groups. Even if they didn't want a separate grad their reasoning may not be for what you assumed.

Equality doesn't mean everyone has to do the same things. Different people will have different values, different ways of expressing themselves etc.

Which is why when I look at the black grad I am happy for them because it wasn't that long ago (meaning there were terbites alive when....) when blacks had their own fountains, washrooms, area on the bus, not allowed to vote, separate school, and a system that pretty much violated them.

Are you suggesting that the point of the black grad is to say "everyone is a winner?"

While not the same.... I know people who work for large accounting firms and when the new group of interns get hired on the company throws them a big party. Nothing wrong with a group of people celebrating a common goal.

 

[fuji]

I will cut it off there just so I can say: I completely agree with you Fuji!! (wasn't so hard to do, and I don't feel unclean)

I even agree that it is a difficult thing to recover from , but I don't agree that it takes generations to repair the damage. I know you will disagree, but the proof is there in refugees and immigrants who have experienced the same or worse than our aboriginals.

Doubling down where it works is only valid if what you are doubling down on actually works. The culture of "celebrating everyone for their accomplishments" has merit, but only if it is part of an overall disciplined system that sets goals and objectives to recognize and reward high achievers.
The reason you don't see other ethnics asking for their special celebration is that most of them would be embarrassed to have one. Their attitudes are "we want to be recognized as the best in our field, not the best of our color". The whole "we don't have a championship, and every kid gets a trophy for participating" does not motivate people.

Refugees and immigrants HAVE NOT experienced the same or worse. They had it much easier. They merely faced some prejudice and some discrimination not the destruction of their families and communities. They were able to face issues with good support networks from their families here and abroad, who did their best for their kids despite adversity.

That's nothing like having a government car abduct your children, abuse them, then tell you it was for your own good in the name of dismantling your community.

The point is that the damage done to natives and blacks has caused internal problems in their families and their communities that other immigrants facing mere prejudice have not encountered and certainly not over several hundred years of systematic attack.

Even when the Japanese were interned their families remained intact, and that lasted years, not centuries.