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Biden …out!

WyattEarp

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It has not been bypassed. NOBODY is wanting to run against her. What would you like them to do. Force a bypass so your ilk can jump on the wagon that the DEMS bypassed a black woman??
Squeeze, don't push this so hard.

Do you think Biden vs. Dean Phillips was a competitive battle? Rearranging primary battles to fast forward to South Carolina doesn't look so good in retrospect.

One could say let's have a real democratic contest and allow Newsom, Whitmer, etc. to challenge for the nomination. It's been clear to some of us for a long time that Biden was declining and Democrats had to have an open fight for the nomination.....for their own good.
 

WyattEarp

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I think we pretty much all are. It's the anonymity that matters. Regular social media can get you canceled. I'm not on it really anyway.
There are guys like Jalimon who have left a trail of debauchery on the internet and then there are guys who just show up for political advocacy.

(I'm not insulting Jalimon. I consider him a Montreal legend. ;) )
 
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mellowjello

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I did a quick perusal of Sanders vs. Trump and Realclearpolitics had Sanders up 4% in April, 2020 with an aggregation of polls. It sounds like a lot until you realize Biden won the election with 4.5% margin nationally.

What's interesting is Biden was polling much higher than 4.5% in October, 2020.

So would have Sanders' April polling margin of 4% shrink on the actual Election Day? Was Sanders really that well-known to voters in the Spring of 2020? I maintain that outside Democratic voters who are very engaged Sanders is not well-known.

So it might be an overstatement to say that Sanders was crushing Trump. In actuality, Biden was "crushing" Trump in polling as late as October and up until Election Day.

In June of 2016, Sanders was up as much as 10.5% over Trump, Clinton was even at best..
Despite Clinton losing the electoral vote, she got 3M more votes than Trump.
Given Sanders' huge lead, who knows where he would have landed.
Sanders would’ve beat Trump in 2016 — just ask Trump pollsters (thehill.com)
Would Bernie Sanders have defeated Donald Trump? (usatoday.com)
 

WyattEarp

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In June of 2016, Sanders was up as much as 10.5% over Trump, Clinton was even at best..
Despite Clinton losing the electoral vote, she got 3M more votes than Trump.
Given Sanders' huge lead, who knows where he would have landed.
Sanders would’ve beat Trump in 2016 — just ask Trump pollsters (thehill.com)
Would Bernie Sanders have defeated Donald Trump? (usatoday.com)
My bad. I reverted to Sanders vs. Biden in 2020.

I guess it's possible that Sanders would have beaten Trump in 2016. That's a lot of conjecture about a moment in time eight years ago. As I noted Biden's big lead in 2020 dissipated on Election Day. Some very close swing state races decided the election.

As far as number of votes nationally, you have to get used to more talk about swing states. Political pundits and pollsters of all stripes are assessing Kamala's relative strength in swing states. I don't doubt Kamala will pile up a huge margin of votes in California.

Psss, Hillary was up on Trump 6% in June 2016. I have to guess people had formed a fairly solid opinion of her over the years. As I mentioned, I don't think a lot of voters outside engaged Democratic voters had formed an opinion of Sanders.
 
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mellowjello

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My bad. I reverted to Sanders vs. Biden in 2020.

I guess it's possible that Sanders would have beaten Trump in 2016. That's a lot of conjecture about a moment in time eight years ago. As I noted Biden's big lead in 2020 dissipated on Election Day. Some very close swing state races decided the election.

As far as number of votes nationally, you have to get used to more talk about swing states. Political pundits and pollsters of all stripes are assessing Kamala's relative strength in swing states. I don't doubt Kamala will pile up a huge margin of votes in California.

Psss, Hillary was up on Trump 6% in June 2016. I have to guess people had formed a fairly solid opinion of her over the years. As I mentioned, I don't think a lot of voters outside engaged Democratic voters had formed an opinion of Sanders.
It's actually not conjecture at all, maybe reasonable speculation.
I haven't seen those numbers for Clinton but even if they're correct, Sanders' lead was almost double.
And Clinton lost because of the electoral vote not the popular vote, beating Trump by 3 million votes.
It wouldn't be unreasonable to project Sanders' greater potential based on that.
These polls were not specific to engaged Democratic voters so the the claim that voters hadn't formed an opinion of him just isn't true.
Why do you believe that in the face of multiple polls conducted at the time?
 

squeezer

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Squeeze, don't push this so hard.

Do you think Biden vs. Dean Phillips was a competitive battle? Rearranging primary battles to fast forward to South Carolina doesn't look so good in retrospect.

One could say let's have a real democratic contest and allow Newsom, Whitmer, etc. to challenge for the nomination. It's been clear to some of us for a long time that Biden was declining and Democrats had to have an open fight for the nomination.....for their own good.
Do you believe if Gavin or Whitmer had stood up and said I'm throwing my hat into the ring for the nomination anything would have stopped that train from rolling through the Democratic party like a rolling thunder?
 

Butler1000

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Have you noticed Trump slurs his words, mixes up names of places and people and is as dumb as a stump before the debate?

'Person. Woman. Man. Camera. TV fuck, he is a genius in your world because he remembered these 5 things eh?
You are deflecting. Do you think Biden had noticable cognitive decline before the debate?
 
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WyattEarp

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Do you believe if Gavin or Whitmer had stood up and said I'm throwing my hat into the ring for the nomination anything would have stopped that train from rolling through the Democratic party like a rolling thunder?
No, I don't think Gavin or Whitmer could stop the Kamala train. The Democratic leadership would have to set up a process leading into the convention. There have been lots of ideas thrown around by pundits.

I actually think the Democrats did what they had to do, but Butler is correct something's been off the rails all year. It's kind of ugly and it will be interesting to see how Trump campaigns on this. He will, don'tya think?

Where were you Kamala when Joe was lapsing off? Were you even in the room Vice President?
 
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WyattEarp

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It's actually not conjecture at all, maybe reasonable speculation.
Fair enough.

I haven't seen those numbers for Clinton but even if they're correct, Sanders' lead was almost double.
And Clinton lost because of the electoral vote not the popular vote, beating Trump by 3 million votes.
It wouldn't be unreasonable to project Sanders' greater potential based on that.
These polls were not specific to engaged Democratic voters so the the claim that voters hadn't formed an opinion of him just isn't true.
Why do you believe that in the face of multiple polls conducted at the time?
2016 was Sanders first campaign nationally. I don't think you can get a really good read on Sanders' general election potential from just running in the Democratic primary. The Presidential General Election is notoriously more confrontational on all levels. Sanders' fondness for the Soviet Union and Cuba would be on American TV screens every day. Even a straightforward issue as Sanders' Medicare for All is not popular with Americans.

You obviously think Sanders would have done better in swing states. I would give you that he might have won Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin with his populist economic message. However, we have to assume Sanders doesn't lose voters in less blue collar swing states like Nevada, Minnesota and Virginia that Hillary won. Granular state-by-state polling in Spring of 2020 would be scant and less reliable.

Would Sanders' progressive message scare off some suburban women that Hillary won? We don't know. Suburban women are generally very moderate.
 
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richaceg

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I just want one of my liberal friends here to explain to me....the conundrum that is the democratic party...
Biden withdrew from election due to "health issues" was it covid? or something else....if he can't ran a campaign...how is he still in office? running a country is 10x harder than an election campaign...why is Kamala not the president? This is her easiest way to become the first Woman POTUS...the liberal dream....
 

Butler1000

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Fair enough.



2016 was Sanders first campaign nationally. I don't think you can get a really good read on Sanders' general election potential from just running in the Democratic primary. The Presidential General Election is notoriously more confrontational on all levels. Sanders' fondness for the Soviet Union and Cuba would be on American TV screens every day. Even a straightforward issue as Sanders' Medicare for All is not popular with Americans.

You obviously think Sanders would have done better in swing states. I would give you that he might have won Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin with his populist economic message. However, we have to assume Sanders doesn't lose voters in less blue collar swing states like Nevada, Minnesota and Virginia that Hillary won. Granular state-by-state polling in Spring of 2020 would be scant and less reliable.

Would Sanders' progressive message scare off some suburban women that Hillary won? We don't know. Suburban women are generally very moderate.

It remains consistently above in approval. And ask most seniors about Medicare itself. It would absolutely draw in independents and I suspect many single issue voters to come out.
 

WyattEarp

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It remains consistently above in approval. And ask most seniors about Medicare itself. It would absolutely draw in independents and I suspect many single issue voters to come out.
"A 57% majority of U.S. adults believe that the federal government should ensure all Americans have healthcare coverage. Yet nearly as many, 53%, prefer that the U.S. healthcare system be based on private insurance rather than run by the government. These findings are in line with recent attitudes about the government’s involvement in the healthcare system, which have been relatively steady since 2015."

It might be one of those issues that doesn't gain any new support for Democrats, but rather it's an issue that could alienate many.

 
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Butler1000

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"A 57% majority of U.S. adults believe that the federal government should ensure all Americans have healthcare coverage. Yet nearly as many, 53%, prefer that the U.S. healthcare system be based on private insurance rather than run by the government. These findings are in line with recent attitudes about the government’s involvement in the healthcare system, which have been relatively steady since 2015."

It might be one of those issues that doesn't gain any new support for Democrats, but rather it's an issue that could alienate many.

In other words they need to be better educated on it. I've seen the rhetoric and had this conversation with many Americans. Most have no idea how it can work.
 
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WyattEarp

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In other words they need to be better educated on it. I've seen the rhetoric and had this conversation with many Americans. Most have no idea how it can work.
Anytime someone tells me voters don't understand or need to be educated, I get very leery. There's a tinge of elitism. I've seen the light. They need to see the light.

Most everyone has come in contact with Medicare directly or indirectly. It's a very generous program. For whatever reason, the people I talk to would rather have private coverage typically through their employer than a govt. program. Overhauling the entire healthcare system might be required with the government at the center. A small majority but a majority nonetheless don't want the government expanding their role.
 

Butler1000

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If you read my earlier posts I always maintained Biden is to old and was hoping for Gavin. My exact words have always been both are past their prime and should be enjoying their golden years .
Then you realize that the Demicratic leadership has been lying yo the American people right? What is the bigger cover up? Fucking a pornstar? Or that the President IN OFFICE is incapable of doing the job?
 
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