Bid to give Toronto cyclists more road space

[Richard.TO]

You would think the cyclists would be more aware, that's ridiculous. Another hazard I find up north in cottage country is people forget the boat and trailer they are towing is WAY wider than the SUV they are driving. They cut you some slack and give you some room with the car but the boat behind them often brushes past very closely...

Yes. Thats true SPJ, I'm quite leery when riding on country roads as many drivers are not used to seeing cyclists. I think side mirrors on bicycles should be mandatory. After the close calls I had, I installed the side mirror and constantly monitor the situation behind me. If the vehicle behind is coming too close, I'll make sure I pull as far over to the right as I can or stop completely and move off the road.

By the way, which which is your favourite Leaf position? Umm...does the number kinda give it away?

 

[Imperius]

There have been at least two threads on the topic of cyclists and motorists. Both have gone nowhere. There's just a lot of bitching from both sides with no constructive suggestions. Yes, I'm an avid downtown cyclist (drive a car whenever I need to) and I'll be the first to admit many cyclists break the rules and cycle recklessly. I have also seen cars roll through stop signs, speed up through amber lights, open doors without looking, using side streets as a race track, and so on.

Agreed, there is plenty of room for improvement on both the part of motorists and cyclists. Unfortunately, a lot of this behaviour stems from a "me first" attitude. So many incidents out there could be prevented if people didn't assume their schedule and their own "rights" are more important than everyone else's.

So what's the sensible solution? I think education for both motorists and cyclists would be a key component. Perhaps licensing for cyclists? Perhaps limiting the number of cars entering downtown? Reducing overall speed limits down town? If enforcement is a remedy then it needs to be applied to both sides fairly, I have absolutely no problem with that.

Education is definitely important.

With respect to motorist education... It's been a few decades since I did my driver training, but I don't recall much in the way of education and testing with respect to the interaction of motorists and cyclists. Has anything changed more recently with driver ed in this area? I think a lot of motorists just don't know what to do when they encounter a cyclist. Also, cracking down on distracted driving is also a must. I'm not a fan of "hands free" phone usage in a vehicle... I think it's still very distracting, and a recent study confirmed the dangers. Not sure how many drivers are going to be willing to give up their cell phones totally though... unfortunately.

With respect to cyclist education... it's somewhat astonishing that cyclists are put on the same road with motor vehicles with no formal training required. I can't immediately think of any other activity open to the public that carries as much risk without some sort of mandated basic training. If we're going to share the same road, it only makes sense to ensure both parties know the rules of the road, and are accountable for following them.

Ideally, a separate bike lane would be great. Unfortunately, it seems like adding a bike lane in many areas means losing a car lane. Even with bike lanes, there's the issue of what happens at intersections or with public transit vehicles. Given our climate and car culture, I think much more use will be made of those lanes by cars than by bikes in terms of daily volume as well as year round volume. Better public transit might help in this situation, but that's years/decades away and a battle in its own right.

One has to bear in mind though that in the end, during a collision, the car or truck always wins.

True enough. Perhaps put another way, in the above collision everybody loses, but the cyclist loses life or limb.

 

[George The Curious]

Toronto is getting overcrowded. And expensive. Moving out of here where I can drive my big suv.

 

[Richard.TO]

try this mirror ... it's eyeglass mounted, I put it on my rec specs... but if you wear sunglasses or goggles it works better than any handlebar mounted mirror cause it's stuck to your head. You can move your head and see anything you want... fantastic idea. and yes... my favourite position is evident on my jersey

To be quite honest, I think this would be more dangerous for me SPJ if I can see anything I want. Especially in the summer if you were walking on the sidewalk I would be completely distracted!

 

[Richard.TO]

Good points Imperius, I think you hit the nail right on the head, it's the "car culture" in most North American cities. Yes, many cyclists need to learn the rules of the road before they share the road with others. I would not like it, but licensing cyclists who ride in the road may be a good interim solution. However, I would imagine the administration could be a nightmare.

Dedicated bike lanes would be highly desirable. I rode up Sherbourne today and the City did a pretty decent job with them. Maybe taking away one lane on less busy streets and prohibiting cyclists on certain major routes might work.

By the way, how did you get to become an "upstanding member"?

 

[Terrible]

I love when these topics come up, and people who are pro car, focus on the dumb cyclists, and the pro cyclists focus on the dumb drivers. I am a avid cyclist. I have ridden in many major cities all over North America, and Toronto is by far one of thethe worst places to ride a bike. I can't give a good answer why, as I have almost been hit by numerous cars, and other cyclists. It seems education is needed on both sides. I see people almost get hit all the time on bikes, and I also see some of the most retarded driving in the city. Both sides are at fault. Too many people don't pay attention riding bikes, and too many people don't pay attention driving.

When you are stopped at a light, do you know why we come up along the right on the inside and get to the front? It is so you see us. It is less dangerous for us to be up near the cross walk, on the inside, then stopped back in traffic in a live lane. If we get in front of you and you have to pass us, deal with it. I have seen plenty of fender benders in the city from people stopped at lights, or people turning....imagine if a person on a bike was between those cars, its dangerous. The majority of us do it for safety, however with all the proper riders, there are always the improper ones, same with driving. People need to respect other modes of transport.

More lanes need to be built. More understanding from both sides needs to happen. It works in lots of places. If it slows down your drive, leave a few minutes earlier. Its not hard.

 

[Adam_hadam]

Good points Imperius, I think you hit the nail right on the head, it's the "car culture" in most North American cities. Yes, many cyclists need to learn the rules of the road before they share the road with others. I would not like it, but licensing cyclists who ride in the road may be a good interim solution. However, I would imagine the administration could be a nightmare.

Dedicated bike lanes would be highly desirable. I rode up Sherbourne today and the City did a pretty decent job with them. Maybe taking away one lane on less busy streets and prohibiting cyclists on certain major routes might work.

By the way, how did you get to become an "upstanding member"?

Licencing cyclists is like licencing dogs, a complete waste of resources and no enforcement whatsoever. (Recall the city sent interns knocking on doors to look for unlicenced pets?)

99.9% of the cyclists I see on the road are fine. My biggest problem is cyclists that ride on the sidewalk opposite traffic. Suppose I am in my car turning left, oncoming traffic is clear, no pedestrians then I make my left turn. The cyclist comes from left-to-right on the sidewalk and I have to take action to avoid a collision. I've had "chats" with cyclists who do this and I will always tell them they wouldn`t be yelling at me if I would have smeared them on the pavement. I`ve almost taken out 5 cyclists who do this. I don`t need the aggravation.

 

[George The Curious]

Dedicated bike lanes would be highly desirable. I rode up Sherbourne today and the City did a pretty decent job with them. Maybe taking away one lane on less busy streets and prohibiting cyclists on certain major routes might work.

I would not walk or bike on Sherborne st. If you are not run over by distracted drivers (looking for street walkers), or get grabbed by crackheads from sidewalk.

 

[groggy]

I would not walk or bike on Sherborne st. If you are not run over by distracted drivers (looking for street walkers), or get grabbed by crackheads from sidewalk.

Ewww.

You'd have to be a bit of a low life yourself to even be that interested in the goings on there.
I drive and bike that route pretty regularly, its not pretty but its not dangerous.

 

[Celticman]

As a cyclist, motor biker and of course car owner, I would like to see the roads made safe for cyclists, so long as a sense of balance is brought to the table. It would be interesting to see traffic studies to see how many cyclists might benefit from road improvements. The studies should be based on a 12 month period, after all the changes will be permanent, cost money and might affect other traffic. I do not think that the reckless riding that we see from some cyclists will ever be resolved unless licenses are mandatory with similar penalties and enforcement currently enjoyed by motorists. If they run a red light they should lose points on their driving license. I also think insurance should be mandatory. If my car is damaged by an at fault cyclist, why am I stuck with the bill? I think that all bicycles should have lights for night driving. On a rainy night in slow traffic it can be very hard to see a biker zooming up from behind. And helmets should be mandatory.

 

[Imperius]

Yes, many cyclists need to learn the rules of the road before they share the road with others. I would not like it, but licensing cyclists who ride in the road may be a good interim solution. However, I would imagine the administration could be a nightmare.

Licencing cyclists is like licencing dogs, a complete waste of resources and no enforcement whatsoever.

Administration and enforcement is always an issue. I don't know that we need to go to the extent of licensing cyclists, but on the other hand, short of that how do we make sure every user of the road has a working knowledge of the rules and is accountable for following them? The cost of uninformed/ill-informed people on the road is too high, not only in lost lives but in aggravation for everybody, increased congestion, slow commute times, etc.

When you are stopped at a light, do you know why we come up along the right on the inside and get to the front? It is so you see us. It is less dangerous for us to be up near the cross walk, on the inside, then stopped back in traffic in a live lane. If we get in front of you and you have to pass us, deal with it. I have seen plenty of fender benders in the city from people stopped at lights, or people turning....imagine if a person on a bike was between those cars, its dangerous. The majority of us do it for safety, however with all the proper riders, there are always the improper ones, same with driving. People need to respect other modes of transport.

I'm not sure I understand your reasoning as to why it's safer for a cyclist to pass numerous stopped cars at a red light, and then have those same cars proceed to pass the cyclist between traffic lights, and then have it happen all over again at the next light. Many cyclists here have talked about the close calls they've had while being passed by cars, so cars passing cyclists certainly seems to be a common safety issue. Several motorists have expressed their frustration at having to pass the same cyclist repeatedly, which if they are to do so safely (i.e. giving the cyclist adequate space) often means changing lanes in heavy traffic - not a trivial matter as some have suggested. Saying "deal with it" doesn't address either problem. Some frustrated motorists will deal with it by ratcheting up their antagonism towards cyclists.

I understand that being visible is key to cyclist safety, I'm just not sure what specific scenario or scenarios you're contemplating where a cyclist moving to the front of a line of cars and continually playing leapfrog is overall more safe than queuing up in traffic the way other motorists do.

More lanes need to be built. More understanding from both sides needs to happen. It works in lots of places. If it slows down your drive, leave a few minutes earlier. Its not hard.

It would be great if more lanes could be built everywhere, but in many situations that simply isn't possible. We either carve up the existing road, or we learn to share it. Toronto already has one of the worst commute times in North America. Leaving a few minutes earlier is not a scalable solution, and doesn't address the safety issue.

By the way, how did you get to become an "upstanding member"?

Specialized visualization techniques.

 

[Azprint]

Surprised they need a law considering most of the assholes already take up entire lane.

I just wish they would ban cyclists from the roads in Toronto, you want to ride a bike keep it in suburbs. Toronto is a busy city, considering all the traffic lights and constructions it is really annoying having to deal with pedaling asshats.

Flame away.

 

[Butchers Dog]

I am all for exercise and your right to cycle, but if it comes down to a safety issue and it is deemed that mixing cars, trucks, buses and streetcars with bikes is unsafe (and it is), guess who is the odd man out. So use the bike paths where they are but know that when you mix with traffic you are taking a risk. If you willingly put yourself into a dangerous situation (Christ, it is dangerous even when you are inside a car) then you take your chances. Argue all you want but being right means nothing if you are dead.

BD

 

[Butchers Dog]

When you are stopped at a light, do you know why we come up along the right on the inside and get to the front? It is so you see us. It is less dangerous for us to be up near the cross walk, on the inside, then stopped back in traffic in a live lane. If we get in front of you and you have to pass us, deal with it. I have seen plenty of fender benders in the city from people stopped at lights, or people turning....imagine if a person on a bike was between those cars, its dangerous. The majority of us do it for safety, however with all the proper riders, there are always the improper ones, same with driving. People need to respect other modes of transport.

This makes little sense to me. If you are behind me, why do I need to see you? Are you aware that passing a vehicle on the right is considered bad practice by the MTO. That is what you are doing.

Why is being stopped in a "live lane" dangerous? Aren't you in a "live lane" as you pedal down the road? Why do people have a hard time seeing you? Are you not wearing a reflective vest or have proper lighting? You're footprint is not much different than a motorcycle. They don't squeeze themselves up to the crosswalk.

This isn't a safety issue. This is a wait your turn issue.

BD

 

[peter4025]

You would think the cyclists would be more aware, that's ridiculous. Another hazard I find up north in cottage country is people forget the boat and trailer they are towing is WAY wider than the SUV they are driving. They cut you some slack and give you some room with the car but the boat behind them often brushes past very closely...

Don't blame the motorist for this. Do you know how hard it is to concentrate on the road while looking at your ass when you are riding your bike.

 

[Butchers Dog]

Don't blame the motorist for this. Do you know how hard it is to concentrate on the road while looking at your ass when you are riding your bike.

I would give up my car and only cycle if it could be arranged that SPJ was always cycling just in front of me while wearing some daisy dukes.

 

[Possum Trot]

I've had my handlebars nicked by a passing mirror on a car and fortunately didn't wipe out.
Otherwise I might not be writing this.

You were , no doubt, drifting even further left.

 

[Rockslinger]

it is deemed that mixing cars, trucks, buses and streetcars with bikes is unsafe (and it is), guess who is the odd man out.

Add pedestrians to the mix. I think 40 were killed by cars last year. Apparently, they weren't wearing reflective vests and helmets.

 

[Butchers Dog]

Add pedestrians to the mix. I think 40 were killed by cars last year. Apparently, they weren't wearing reflective vests and helmets.

Are you saying 40 pedestrians were killed by cars while crossing at a proper cross walk and correctly following the Walk/Don't Walk signage?? That's is an amazing stat. Imagine what the numbers would be if you wrongfully included people jaywalking.

BD

 

[rhuarc29]

As a pedestrian I know many drivers don't respect pedestrian walk signals and are quick to rush by pedestrians while making right turns.

I find it's just as likely that pedestrians don't respect pedestrian walk signals and end up crossing just seconds before the light goes green. That leaves both cars turning right and turning left in a tough spot and can significantly back up traffic during peak times. As a driver, if I see a significant gap in the flow of pedestrians, I have to take it.