Japan could have avoided all that shit by not leaving their home islands to rape, pillage and murder in Asia. Even then, they could have surrendered way before August 9, 1945 and avoided more carnage.
Berlin videos - 1935 and 1945
- Thread starter mandrill
- Start date
Who else besides Germany was trying to take over the world?? Italy??
They allied themselves with the Germans, but I wouldnt exactly say they had ambitions to conquer the entire world (like Germany had)
Back in the 70's, I went to school in the UK for a year and my folks took in a German exchange student. He knew NOTHING about German history since 1900. Not sure if things have changed since then. Perhaps the 70's was a sensitive time, given that young Wilhelm's mom and dad had likely been involved in the War or at least the Hitler Youth.
I know that the "past" comes up in German ideological debates and political discussions from time to time. All Nazi regalia is banned in Germany. In fact, I once belonged to a military scale modelling board and any insignia on World War 2 German planes and vehicles was routinely blurred out by the mods to avoid the board being blocked in Germany.
Considering Germany had been on a war footing for 5 years by 1939, their military was overrated. Firstly, Germany was far from being a tiny nation, they were the largest in Europe, even larger than the U.K.
Sure they defeated France, but again that was France. A minor accomplishment. Then they defeated Belgium, Holland and a bunch of small Eastern European countries.
The best they could do against Britain was a draw. Greece gave the Nazis as much as they could handle. After the initial sneak attack on Russia, the Ruskies marched the Nazis all the way back to Berlin.
In the 1930's, Germany had the 2nd largest industrial base and economy in the world and was probably first or second in scientific R&D. Given that European countries imposed universal military conscription up until at least the 80's, Germany had the 2nd largest army in the world (after the USSR). People forget that the "mighty" US army which liberated Europe in 44-45 was in fact SMALLER than the French army which got creamed by the Germans in 1940.
The reason the US won was that the bulk of the German army was tied up fighting the Soviets.
So Germany was anything but "tiny".
Also, the German soldiers surrendered en masse on the Western Front rather than fight to the death (like the Japanese). Is Paris burning?
Yup, thats why I asked. I heard Germans dont like teaching stuff aboot the holocaust and 2 world wars to their students. Its only later in life that adults find out about these things
Mostly true, yes. Although I think the US was a bit stronger then that. But you're right aboot Russia softening up the Germans on the Eastern flank, thats what won us the war
Perhaps, but they didn't seem to care much about civilian lives when they were carpet-bombing Hamburg (~40,000 killed over 3 days) or dropping bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
The U.S. knew the importance of halting the Soviet advance westward (Churchill had warned of it years earlier); I can't see them willingly letting the Soviets capture Berlin first.
Very little, from what I've read; large parts of the German/Australian populace believe they share no complicity for any of what occurred during the war, and would rather leave that ugly chapter of history buried than study and acknowledge it.
Some of this was covered in another history thread about the US and Japan in 45, a few weeks ago. The US had taken RELATIVELY light casualties up to spring '45 - relative to all other major combatants, that is. It expected to incur significant casualties if it needed to invade the Japanese home islands - casualties which would DWARF anything the US had suffered in the war beforehand. At the same time, the US govt anticipated that political support for the war would erode as Germany was eliminated and Japan isolated and that there would be demands for demobilization.
As a result, the US took the decision to let the USSR take Berlin to avoid heavy casualties and the resulting impairment of the war effort against Japan. The Allies expected the conquering Japan would take all of 46 and into 47.
Yeah, we love to bash the Americans on this Board but there are few saints in a world war. The civilian casualties inflicted by the U.S. is a rounding error compared to those inflicted by Germany, Japan, Russia, etc. Even a minor ally of Germany, murdered over a million innocent civilian Serbs in WW II.
Incorrect. I was in Berlin last year and German students are some of the most educated in the world on the Holocaust and WW2. I was impressed to see student groups/class trips where they've learned all the gory details. It's very different than Japan where they basically gloss over that period of their history and pretend it didn't happen. Whereas we'd take class trips to Fort York, Niagara, Ottawa, whatever, German students take class trips to concentration camps.
Maybe the Germans did the same in the post-year wars (wouldn't surprise me when the memories were so fresh and so many people still alive) but today it's a core part of German students' curriculum.
In fact, all of German society is very conscious of their dark history and that's why when there's the occasional Neo-Nazi attack on gays or Jews the population turns out in tens of thousands to stage mass protests against them. Berlin is chock full of memorials to all the victims of the Third Reich.
Correct. Eisenhower said as much. He didn't think a "race to Berlin" was worth an incremental increase in the loss of American lives and he also felt to some extent that the Russians had earned the right to take Berlin (and he was right).
By April 1945 it was crystal clear to the Western generals as well as the average foot soldier that the Germans were going to lose and this undoubtedly played into not wanting to needlessly throw away Western solders' lives when the Soviet Union was clearly chomping at the bit to reach Berlin first.
In the grand scheme of things, it was a wise decision by the Western Powers. People might think things would have turned out differently if the Allies got to Berlin first but it wouldn't have made a difference because the Allies had already drawn up the division of Germany and Berlin.
Keebler is spot-on about this. I've lived for long periods of time in Germany, and the people there are thoroughly educated about their past. And a surprising amount of their film/literary output still deals with the war and coming to grips with the moral issues around blind patriotism. Collective guilt - even among those Germans who were not yet born at the time - is a real thing. I think that's one of the reasons why you see pockets of neo-nazi sentiment today - youth that don't want to feel bad about their country and rebel in an ultra-nationalistic way. This is dangerous.
So, you think I was wrong in saying that the Americans stood down rather than charge into Berlin and suffer needless casualties?
I don't have children nor did I go to school there but the people that work for me have a very good crasp of the war. Many germans feel very poorly about it. However there is different accounts depending on a East German's take and a West German's take on things.
Most views suggest that Japan was bombed into submission in 1945 precisely so that US troops in the Pacific could be re-diverted to Germany to halt any further Soviet advance.
The decision to bomb Hiroshima wasn't so much about avoiding massive casualties on the ground as it was political.
Unfortunately due to Marxist-Leninist theory etc. . . Children in the DDR were taught that they were the good Germans, the "bad Germans" had all fled to the BRD. The BRD accepted its responsibility but even then (for understandable psychological reasons) attempted to say that the SS were the real bad guys, folks in the "normal" military never committed atrocities (unfortunately some of them did).
