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back up power- generators

B

big dogie

Active member
Jun 15, 2003
1,233
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in a van down by the river
I am looking at getting some back up power for my country property, I'm thinking I could get something half descent between 5000 to 14000 watts. An electrician has recommended Generac 6500W. I don't know a thing other then it would be cool to have, in case of emergency. I have had good luck with Honda but their resent turn away from customer service scares me, any thoughts?

b d
 
Well, there are several considerations.

How big is your place? How much power do you intend to use in an emergency? Do you want to be able to light up the whole place and run the oven, ot just have enough to get by? Will all the house's circuits be on the generator? How is the property heated? Electricity? Oil? Gas? Make sure that the fan system is powered.
 
I bought a generator, but it will be pretty manual. If the power went down for long enough, I have to drag the generator out of the garage, unplug the things I want, and plug them into the generator. Some of the key things are hard wired, so that is even worse, they would have to be rewired.

To do it right, you have to get an electrician to redo your panel so that there is a feed in from the generator, and the key things are identified, and on plugs so that you can disconnect them from your main panel and plug them into the generator. You have to be careful you do not fry things or yourself when the real power comes back on.

My power was out the other day for about half a day, due to trees on the wires. But I did not bother with the generator, the house did not get that cold, the frozen stuff was still cold, so it was not worth it.
 
C Dick said:
I bought a generator, but it will be pretty manual. If the power went down for long enough, I have to drag the generator out of the garage, unplug the things I want, and plug them into the generator. Some of the key things are hard wired, so that is even worse, they would have to be rewired.

To do it right, you have to get an electrician to redo your panel so that there is a feed in from the generator, and the key things are identified, and on plugs so that you can disconnect them from your main panel and plug them into the generator. You have to be careful you do not fry things or yourself when the real power comes back on.

My power was out the other day for about half a day, due to trees on the wires. But I did not bother with the generator, the house did not get that cold, the frozen stuff was still cold, so it was not worth it.
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You don't have to disconnect them from the main panel. Leave the breakers on for the stuff you want to run. You energize the panel by running the power in from the generator via a breaker, you also turn off the main breaker that energizes the panel from the source.
Power goes out, you turn off the main breaker and the breakers for stuff you don't need that will blow the load of the generator by creating too high a demand. Turn on the breaker that the generator runs through and the panel is re-energized. Reverse process once power comes back on.
6500 watts will generally run your furnace, fridge and a few lights with no problem.
 
Honda generators are the most reliable generators around, you have to get the ALL HONDA generator, not the generic generator company that buys Honda engines but uses other name generator parts. The machines are reliable, sometimes its the crappy little lawn mower / snow blower shop that is not reliable. There are actualy some Honda car dealers that also sell Honda snow blowers, generators, and outboard engines. Their service may be more reliable.

IMO to hard wire a 10,000 or plus watt unit into your electrical system is crazy. The expense will never pay you back in convienience. You will also have to pay the electrician to wire the system into your existing electrical system. You will also need to tell you insurance company of this and may have to payy additional insurance.

For the money you will spend on a 10,000 - 14,000 watt system, you would get emergency power to light your house and maybe run a fridge or one limited air conditioning in the summer. You will not be able to heat your house with that generator. Your best bet would be to get one or two 5000 watt generators and use it for emergency lights , maybe run a fridge or an air conditioner when you realy need it. Your cost will be half that of a wired in system.
 
vsailor said:
can you elaborate?
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Sure, I have a Honda snowblower, and it needed some repairs, I called the place I bought it at and they said that a couple of weeks earlier Honda came in and removed all their product and cancelled the dealership contract. Honda has done this across Canada to some of their top sellers. I called Honda and they said they did this as their new concept is to sell all their products at the Honda dealerships. But I said their is no Dealership within 40 minutes of the one that they had closed, now if I need a part it takes hours to get it. I asked if they took their customers needs into account and was told it was a company decision. Had I known this I would never have bought a Honda snowblower.

b d
 
DistantVoyeur said:
You don't have to disconnect them from the main panel. Leave the breakers on for the stuff you want to run. You energize the panel by running the power in from the generator via a breaker, you also turn off the main breaker that energizes the panel from the source.
Power goes out, you turn off the main breaker and the breakers for stuff you don't need that will blow the load of the generator by creating too high a demand. Turn on the breaker that the generator runs through and the panel is re-energized. Reverse process once power comes back on.
6500 watts will generally run your furnace, fridge and a few lights with no problem.
Click to expand...
I'm not an expert, but that approach sounds unnecessarily dangerous (possibly illegally so). As I understand it, the largest risk is in having simple errors result in power being supplied to lines which Hydro workers expect to be unpowered.

Ensure you get a licensed electrician to sign off on whatever configuration you choose to run.
 
What you need to backfeed a panel legally (which is what is being suggested) is an interlock...

I've never used this brand - but they explain how it works in a simple enough way...

http://www.nooutage.com/interlock_kits.htm

If I were in an area with frequent power outages, I would go with a Generac kit - they're a little more work to install then some - but they are very nice. Fuel source would depend on what was available, but LPG or natural gas, plumbed into the heating fuel source, if possible, would by my pick.

Laz
 
Anynym said:
I'm not an expert, but that approach sounds unnecessarily dangerous (possibly illegally so). As I understand it, the largest risk is in having simple errors result in power being supplied to lines which Hydro workers expect to be unpowered.

Ensure you get a licensed electrician to sign off on whatever configuration you choose to run.
Click to expand...

The line outside the panel is broken by turning off the main panel breaker, hence no danger to hydro crews.

Absolutely get a licensed electrician to do the job right, not something you want to leave to a home handyman.
 
DistantVoyeur said:
You don't have to disconnect them from the main panel. Leave the breakers on for the stuff you want to run. You energize the panel by running the power in from the generator via a breaker, you also turn off the main breaker that energizes the panel from the source.
Power goes out, you turn off the main breaker and the breakers for stuff you don't need that will blow the load of the generator by creating too high a demand. Turn on the breaker that the generator runs through and the panel is re-energized. Reverse process once power comes back on.
6500 watts will generally run your furnace, fridge and a few lights with no problem.
Click to expand...
You need to install a 2nd (smaller) auxiliary breaker panel, a transfer switch and a cable. Wire all the circuits that you want to run from the generator into the auxiliary panel. Connect the power supply to the auxiliary panel to the transfer switch. Connect the feeds to transfer switch to 1) from the main panel and 2) from the generator via the cable.

When utility power is available, you feed the auxiliary panel from the main panel. When utility power fails, you throw the transfer switch so the auxiliary panel is supplied from the generator. Startup the generator and connect the cable.

With this setup there's no way you can inadvertently parallel the 2 supplies or backfeed the main panel - and if you do it right you will keep the load on the generator within its capability by connecting only the circuits it can handle to the auxiliary panel.

Make sure your generator is rated high enough to handle all the circuits on the auxiliary panel. For most applications a minimum of a 5,500 watt generator should handle your furnace, pressure pump and some critical lighting circuits and kitchen receptacles.

Oh yeah, get a qualified electrician to do the work.
 
Doctor Zoidburg said:
…edit…You will not be able to heat your house with that generator. Your best bet would be to get one or two 5000 watt generators and use it for emergency lights , maybe run a fridge or an air conditioner when you realy need it. Your cost will be half that of a wired in system.
Click to expand...
Let's just be clear about the heating part: Unless you heat your house electrically, Doc's not talking to you. Most of us use either gas or oil to heat the house, but the furnace where it burns won't operate without electricity. It's not a major amount; just look at your electrical panel. The breaker or fuse for the furnace is often just another 15amp one, which means that it's maximum load will be 15amps times your line voltage, or about 1600watts. And that means a relatively small genny actually could keep your furnace running and your house heated. In theory. But be smart and don't go for the bare minimum unit. You'll still be sitting in the dark, and it won't last long.
 
I woke up this morning to a cold house, no power. The temperature
dipped to 10C before Hydro was able to restore power, even as they came right away.
 
I have a Guardian backup generator. It runs off natural gas and can power my whole house; mind you it cost about $30,000. My AC is the only major load in my house. My furnace and water heater are natural gas. My dryer is electric but if the power goes ouit for a few days (like back in 2003) I can live without my dryer; worst case scenario I just use the dryer when the AC is off.

The generator comes on the instant a power outage is detected. There's an automatic transfer switch so when the power comes back on the generator shuts off.
 
vsailor said:
Can you somehow put a cord with a plug on an oil furnace burner which you can plug straight into (with an extension cord) a generator?
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Yes. It's all in the somehow, isn't it?
 
Careful

You would want to have an approved unit first, then hire an electrician to do the job or if you are handy and can follow directions do it yourself. Be warned if you do the job by using a generator and backfeeding the panel and anything happens then you will be in for a big surprise.

Your insurance company would not cover your house for anything if it is not approved by the Electrical Safety Authority and your insurance company has not come and taken a video of the installation.

The big thing to remember is that if you backfeed the street transformer by screwing things up, you will energise the high voltage side of the wires and could cause someone their life. Now that is another story altogether.
 
vsailor said:
Yup, that damn "somehow" always seems to be in there!
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Some of the hows would be to verify your furnace only draws nominal 15amps at 110VAC from a dedicated circuit—or whatever and size the genny to that—and that you or your hire are comfortable and knowledgeable working with such circuits. Then you'd have to reconfigure the wiring to enable you to change over the furnace-feed from the hydro company supply to your genny (and back, when power's restored of course) and that's where you'd connect that plug you mentioned. It would also be wise to investigate your furnace, in case there's secret knowledge to restarting it after power interruptions, or warranty implications connecting it to your now user-interruptible power supply.

Do read good to go's caveats above. Do not in any way connect your genny to wiring that can pass current from it to the hydro company, or from the hydro company to it, like with fancy switches. That's for certified experts. Plugging the furnace into either a house outlet or a stand-alone genny as long as it's one or the other and nothing else should be OK.
 
The generator doesn't really need a fancy hook up. If you have a plug in the garage you can get a male-male plug and just plug in the generator startup and it will power up the side of the fuse panel the plug is on.

You have to turn off the main breaker or you will energize the lines and kill an unsuspecting hydro worker. This way you get to run your generator in the safety of your garage. There are of course load issues to take into consideration. You will be maxed out at 15-20 amps. But enough to run a furnace and some lights.
 
Dsh, this is exactly the sort of hookup I think should be avoided. It depends too much on unreliable parts, that is humans. A male-male plug assembly could easily electrocute the uninformed, or the clumsy, never mind your dog or cat, and as you point out, it could send current where you don't want it. Very, very dangerous. It would work, but it shouldn't be given a chance to. [Insert here some, bad homophobic about the danger of male-male connections for the unwary]

Amateurs mucking around with this stuff should stick to solid, foolproof, verifiable setups that fail safe if they're gonna fail at all. Heavy duty extension—to equal or exceed the guage of the house wiring to the furnace—goes from genny in monoxide-safe, outdoor spot to furnace. Furnace is unplugged from house wiring, plugged into extension. Power can't go anywhere except to the furnace. No one needs to touch main breakers, avoid any plugs that this time only may be live. Or not. KISS.

If someone wants the convenience of the sort of setup you have in mind, where you feed into the house wiring, they need to invest in some electrician-time to do it properly, so that the feed from the genny can never carry hydro power, and can only feed the house if the main breaker has already been disconnected the house from the grid. There are commercially available devices to do just that.

Then all you have to do is police the wife and kids to make sure all the constant-on devices and personal appliances are disconnected, before you kill the genny.
 
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