Baby Leafs in T.O.

[spiff]

Latest I have heard is that the Leafs do want to buy Ricoh and use as a home for the baby Leafs and a practice facility for the big club. Why do you ask???? Apparently Eugene Melnyk, owner of the Sens and St. Mikes, would like to move the St. Mikes team in there. I don't see that as going over to well with the Leafs.

comments

 

[21pro]

... maybe the baby leafs can win a championship, at least...

 

[Cave Carson]

I plan to support the Toros. Toronto needs an alternative to the Maple Leafs.

 

[Benhur]

1. I said why the CFL is a TERRIBLE example - especially in places like Toronto where there are TONS of other things to do. They're marketing department abandoned ship long ago - what do you expect? The Rock is a GREAT example - tons of sellouts for a totally unpopular sport among the general population - why? Marketing.
.....................3. See my point above about fans supporting winning teams. Well, duh! What on earth makes you think this is isolated to Toronto?? And doesn't your description of the following in NY seem very similar to the fans who filled MLG in years gone by, hmm?
4. ..................... I like the CFL game. That having been said, how many Argos games do I go to? Not bloody many. The marketing of the league sucks - too many player changes, you never know when the games are.
Toronto is like every other city when it comes to supporting "major league sports". Check out the attendance figures for all the other cities in the leagues - including "great" sports cities like Chicago and Boston. You'll obviously be surprised. Do your homework.

NHL attendances 2004
1 Montreal (41 games) 842,767
2 Detroit (40 g.) 802,640
3 Toronto (41 g.) 794,439
4 Philadelphia (41g.) 794,388
5 Vancouver (39g.) 726,607

You're also right about the CFL marketing......but in Montreal, the Als have a stadium (approx. 24,000 seats) that is not big enough!!....and you're right again, the team is good but the marketing team does a great job!

 

[shredder]

Latest I have heard is that the Leafs do want to buy Ricoh and use as a home for the baby Leafs and a practice facility for the big club. Why do you ask???? Apparently Eugene Melnyk, owner of the Sens and St. Mikes, would like to move the St. Mikes team in there. I don't see that as going over to well with the Leafs.

comments

Maybe Eugene should buy the Ricoh and stick it to the Leafs. I'm sure Eugene has a pretty close relationship with most of the OMERS guys.

The Rock is a GREAT example - tons of sellouts for a totally unpopular sport among the general population - why? Marketing.

Ranger68: Correct me if I have misunderstood you but if you are referring to lacrosse as a totally unpopular sport with the general population you might want to re-check your numbers. The numbers for kids playing in minor lacrosse programs in Ontario rival that of minor soccer. And unlike those sports in which growth has stabilized, the lacrosse numbers are continuing to grow at a rapid pace. I agree that they do a great job marketing the games too.

 

[Ranger68]

if you don't like the NFL, it doesn't mean the game sucks.
Most of your friends and ASSociates are of the same opinion, its still doesn't mean the game sucks.
It just mean you don't like the game.

I think the game sucks. It's lethally dull, and unbelievably slow.
Tough shit.
Live with it.

 

[Ranger68]

Originally posted by shredder Ranger68: Correct me if I have misunderstood you but if you are referring to lacrosse as a totally unpopular sport with the general population you might want to re-check your numbers. The numbers for kids playing in minor lacrosse programs in Ontario rival that of minor soccer. And unlike those sports in which growth has stabilized, the lacrosse numbers are continuing to grow at a rapid pace. I agree that they do a great job marketing the games too. [/B]

So, how many of those people watched or followed lacrosse before Toronto got a team? How many could say who had won the Mann Cup? My guess was, and still is, damn few.

And I thank you for your soccer comparison. How many folks support pro soccer here? How many watch or follow games or teams?
Again, damn few.

The fact that lots of kids play these sports isn't what the discussion was about. It was about support for those sports at professional levels. Lacrosse was a practically unknown professional sport in Toronto until the Rock came, and remains so in most places across Canada. Same for soccer.

 

[n_v]

Latest I have heard is that the Leafs do want to buy Ricoh and use as a home for the baby Leafs and a practice facility for the big club. Why do you ask???? Apparently Eugene Melnyk, owner of the Sens and St. Mikes, would like to move the St. Mikes team in there. I don't see that as going over to well with the Leafs.
comments

The Leafs want alot of other things too. That doesn't mean they will get it. The Ricoh is owned by the city which sits on the CNE grounds - again owned by the city. So not likely that will happen. My bet is that we will see the Baby Leafs and St. Mikes playing out of Ricoh complex with the senior Leafs practicing out of there. I have heard more than rumblings on that scenerio.

 

[The Doctor]

I think the game sucks. It's lethally dull, and unbelievably slow.
Tough shit.
Live with it.

Well it's good to see that you've learned to tollerate other peoples opinions Ranger. Grow up.

So, how many of those people watched or followed lacrosse before Toronto got a team? How many could say who had won the Mann Cup? My guess was, and still is, damn few.

And I thank you for your soccer comparison. How many folks support pro soccer here? How many watch or follow games or teams?
Again, damn few.

The fact that lots of kids play these sports isn't what the discussion was about. It was about support for those sports at professional levels. Lacrosse was a practically unknown professional sport in Toronto until the Rock came, and remains so in most places across Canada. Same for soccer.

Is this another installment of "The World According to Ranger68"? I hate to break it to you but a lot happens outside your little world buddy. Just because you probably didn't follow lacrosse before the Rock came to town (waits for long dissertation on how he played lacrosse all his life and was frustrated with the lack of exposure the game got) doesn't mean that those of us who grew up in areas that have always had thriving minor lacrosse organizations didn't follow the game or couldn't tell you who won the Mann Cup in 1982.

I know it may seem strange but you may have things a little backwards. Lacrosse didn't just become popular because the Rock and their marketing machine came to town...the Rock and the NLL picked Toronto (originally Hamilton) for expansion because lacrosse was thriving in the region to begin with. Existing minor lacrosse associations accross the country have no doubt benefited from the success of the Rock and new markets have been grown as a result, but there is a reason why the sport is Canada's Summertime National Game and it boils down to participation...maybe not in the downtown core of Toronto but not far from there lacrosse has thrived for many years.

As far as the soccer comparison goes, I don't think you want to open that can of worms because I think there is a larger base of soccer support than you might imagine. Maybe not specifically for the NSL as soccer affiliations seem more ethnically aligned and Canada is not country of origin for many.

 

[n_v]

As far as the soccer comparison goes, I don't think you want to open that can of worms because I think there is a larger base of soccer support than you might imagine. Maybe not specifically for the NSL as soccer affiliations seem more ethnically aligned and Canada is not country of origin for many.

Here here. Well said Doc.

 

[Ranger68]

Well it's good to see that you've learned to tollerate other peoples opinions Ranger. Grow up.

Hey, if Remy wants to continue to insult me and my friends - or ASSociates - he'll get the same back. Why don't *you* grow up, Doctor - or just fuck off. Go back to ignoring me - I'm tired of reading your inane diatribes.

But never tire of destroying your feeble arguments.

Is this another installment of "The World According to Ranger68"? I hate to break it to you but a lot happens outside your little world buddy. Just because you probably didn't follow lacrosse before the Rock came to town (waits for long dissertation on how he played lacrosse all his life and was frustrated with the lack of exposure the game got) doesn't mean that those of us who grew up in areas that have always had thriving minor lacrosse organizations didn't follow the game or couldn't tell you who won the Mann Cup in 1982.

I don't think you or your friends are very representative of the majority of sports fans, or people, in the city of Toronto, the VAST MAJORITY OF WHICH, I guarantee you, could not tell me anything about professional lacrosse outside of the Rock.

But thank you for admitting that even you and your lacrosse-loving friends don't follow professional lacrosse.

I know it may seem strange but you may have things a little backwards. Lacrosse didn't just become popular because the Rock and their marketing machine came to town...the Rock and the NLL picked Toronto (originally Hamilton) for expansion because lacrosse was thriving in the region to begin with. Existing minor lacrosse associations accross the country have no doubt benefited from the success of the Rock and new markets have been grown as a result, but there is a reason why the sport is Canada's Summertime National Game and it boils down to participation...maybe not in the downtown core of Toronto but not far from there lacrosse has thrived for many years.

I think the success of the Rock has come primarily from three things - novelty, marketing, and success. Granted, there has to be a certain familiarity with the product before introducing it to a market - I'm not sure how well SlamBall would do here, but I suspect not well. This is the starting point. But, if that's all there was to it, I suspect the Rock would already have folded. They have consistently played SUPERIOR lacrosse, from day one, and the marketing department has capitalized on this.

As far as the soccer comparison goes, I don't think you want to open that can of worms because I think there is a larger base of soccer support than you might imagine. Maybe not specifically for the NSL as soccer affiliations seem more ethnically aligned and Canada is not country of origin for many.

LOL Your arguments are so transparent it's incredible, Doctor. I'll ask you how popular, in general, professional soccer IN CANADA is. If your response is that it's very popular with those who follow leagues outside of North America, I'll rest my case.

 

[The Doctor]

4. I have no desire to see the NFL come here. The game sucks. Most of my friends and associates are of the same opinion. I like the CFL game. That having been said, how many Argos games do I go to? Not bloody many. The marketing of the league sucks - too many player changes, you never know when the games are.

You have yet again stated your opinions as fact. You support your facts by citing your friends and associates as a sample group and then vehemently defended your statement. Isn't it Jim Rome who calls his follwers "the clones"? Forgive us if we have issue with that.

In the following you then use the the exact same logic (but in reverse) to try to prove that my opinion is feeble and invalid when all it was is a statement of my experience.

I don't think you or your friends are very representative of the majority of sports fans, or people, in the city of Toronto, the VAST MAJORITY OF WHICH, I guarantee you, could not tell me anything about professional lacrosse outside of the Rock.

But thank you for admitting that even you and your lacrosse-loving friends don't follow professional lacrosse.

Again we're dealing with "the world according to Ranger". I don't know too many people who could name the winner, let alone either of the participants in the 1982 Mann Cup off the top of their head. But then again, without some help I may find it difficult to identify who won the 1978 Stanley Cup either. Just because people don't sit around memorizing stats books doesn't mean they're not fans of a game or that they follow a sport.

I think the success of the Rock has come primarily from three things - novelty, marketing, and success...They have consistently played SUPERIOR lacrosse, from day one, and the marketing department has capitalized on this.

It would have nothing to do with the fact that Box Lacrosse is a uniquely Canadian game that was not played anywhere else in the world until the NLL was founded in 1988 (known then as MILL), would it? How about the fact that almost two thirds of the NLL players are Canadians including most of the all-time league leaders in all categories. You might be able to make the case that the NLL is in fact taking a Canadian game and making it popular in the US, not marketing a "novel sport" as you put it and packaging it well in Canada.

Professional lacrosse teams have always been well supported in Canada (do a little historical research), with numbers rivaling hockey in the 50's, 60's and early 70's however the leagues lacked the organization, infrastructure and vision of the NHL or the current NLL to ensure viability. Support for professional lacrosse has always been there (catch a Major 'A game in Brooklyn sometime), it just needed a proper outlet and the NLL and the Rock provided that.

LOL Your arguments are so transparent it's incredible, Doctor. I'll ask you how popular, in general, professional soccer IN CANADA is. If your response is that it's very popular with those who follow leagues outside of North America, I'll rest my case.

shredder was making a comparison about participation numbers for lacrosse and soccer in the minor associations. Soccer has generally had some of the highest participation rates across the board of all summer and winter sports. The comparison is that lacrosse numbers match those of soccer and are growing. There isn't a direct comparision at the pro level between the two sports because soccer has challenges in marketing a North American league and players to supporters who have traditionally supported international clubs and arguably the best players in the worldin Europe. You'd have the same situation if the NHL was based in Europe and not North America.

 

[Goober Mcfly]

So have we determined that the Rock could outplay the Baby Leafs, or vice versa.

Oh wait, it depends on who wins I guess.

 

[Ranger68]

You have yet again stated your opinions as fact. You support your facts by citing your friends and associates as a sample group and then vehemently defended your statement.

I'm stating *my* opinions. If you choose to interpret that as that I'm stating facts, that's your problem. Just because I choose to *defend* my opinion, by using *gasp* evidence (whether personal experience or statistical data) ... if you choose to do so, feel free.

In the following you then use the the exact same logic (but in reverse) to try to prove that my opinion is feeble and invalid when all it was is a statement of my experience.

Again we're dealing with "the world according to Ranger". I don't know too many people who could name the winner, let alone either of the participants in the 1982 Mann Cup off the top of their head. But then again, without some help I may find it difficult to identify who won the 1978 Stanley Cup either. Just because people don't sit around memorizing stats books doesn't mean they're not fans of a game or that they follow a sport.

If you choose to attack my point, and defend yours, badly, I'll feel free to point out fallacies in your argument.

It's got nothing to do with "memorizing stat books". My point was that you and your friends may play lacrosse - but that doesn't mean you follow the sport. Not that you couldn't name the 1982 winner, but that you couldn't name even recent winners, in general, at all.

Support for minor leagues of lacrosse and soccer isn't the same as shelling out real money to attend professional levels of the sport - which is what we were talking about. The abject failure of professional soccer to catch on in Canada, despite MASSIVE grass roots popularity, is a good example of this phenomenon. Especially in T.O., where there are about a billion other things to do.

shredder was making a comparison about participation numbers for lacrosse and soccer in the minor associations. Soccer has generally had some of the highest participation rates across the board of all summer and winter sports. The comparison is that lacrosse numbers match those of soccer and are growing. There isn't a direct comparision at the pro level between the two sports because soccer has challenges in marketing a North American league and players to supporters who have traditionally supported international clubs and arguably the best players in the worldin Europe. You'd have the same situation if the NHL was based in Europe and not North America.

Pro soccer wasn't even supported here at a minor league level, which is what you're saying it was. There's plenty of support for minor league *hockey* in Canada. It's not all about the calibre of play - it's about fan interest.

Pro soccer won't fly here unless the marketing is there in SPADES, I don't care how popular it is at a "grass roots level". And, if the marketing is there, and local success is there, the fans will go. The only reason the NLL has thrived is because of the reasons I cited - novelty, incredible success, and marketing. Yes, that's my *opinion*, and time will tell if my opinion was *correct* - yes, it's actually possible that people's opinions may be true or false, despite what you obviously think.

Of those three reasons, the first will disappear soon, the second won't likely be there forever. At that point, you'll see attendance in TO drop DRAMATICALLY. Then we can argue the relative merits of soccer vs. lacrosse in terms of fan interest. Time will tell.

 

[The Doctor]

If you choose to cite the experiences of you and your associates as your so called evidence, that's fine but I'll argue your credibility. I, on the other hand, didn't make such generalization and only indicated that my personal experience was contrary, and believe that the participation numbers in minor lacrosse might support my opinion.

It's got nothing to do with "memorizing stat books". My point was that you and your friends may play lacrosse - but that doesn't mean you follow the sport. Not that you couldn't name the 1982 winner, but that you couldn't name even recent winners, in general, at all.

You've made quite an incorrect assumption here Ranger. I can in fact name the winners and in most cases the finalists of the Mann Cup for the last decade or longer (probably not back to '82 though) and I would bet that people who play lacrosse are knowledgable about what happens within their game. There isn't a local Major team where I am but I'm well aware of the junior players turning pro, playing major and even the number of Canadians playing in the US on college scholarships. It's obviously not your game so you shouldn't really be making wild statements like that.

Support for minor leagues of lacrosse and soccer isn't the same as shelling out real money to attend professional levels of the sport - which is what we were talking about. The abject failure of professional soccer to catch on in Canada, despite MASSIVE grass roots popularity, is a good example of this phenomenon. Especially in T.O., where there are about a billion other things to do.

My point was that when the alternatives have grass root support, are reasonably priced (approximately $10 for a Major game and you can see the Rock for $20 in the lower bowl) and decent venues, it stands out as one of the "billion other things to do" in the city.

Pro soccer wasn't even supported here at a minor league level, which is what you're saying it was. There's plenty of support for minor league *hockey* in Canada. It's not all about the calibre of play - it's about fan interest.

I'm thinking the Edmonton Oilers (RoadRunners), Montreal Canadiens (Bull Dogs), Don Cherry (Ice Dogs), Eugene Melnyk (St Mike's) etc might wan't to argue with you on that one. None have had tremendous support in this hockey crazed region, but that wasn't the point I was trying to make. The AHL would face similar challenges developing interest for it's game, as soccer does, if the NHL was based in Europe and the game's roots were not local. Soccer won't fly here not because of marketing but because the best players play in Europe and most cities don't have appropriate venues for them to play in. I remember when Varsity Stadium was still viable and seeing it packed to the brim for pro soccer when there were stars playing in North America.

The only reason the NLL has thrived is because of the reasons I cited - novelty, incredible success, and marketing. Yes, that's my *opinion*, and time will tell if my opinion was *correct* - yes, it's actually possible that people's opinions may be true or false, despite what you obviously think.

Of those three reasons, the first will disappear soon, the second won't likely be there forever. At that point, you'll see attendance in TO drop DRAMATICALLY. Then we can argue the relative merits of soccer vs. lacrosse in terms of fan interest. Time will tell.

If I'm someone with enough cash to buy a franchise in the some professional league (SlamBall for example) and all you can give me are novelty, marketing and winning as the keys to success for your league, I'm going to take a pass... leagues need to have a better plan than that.

 

[Ranger68]

If you choose to cite the experiences of you and your associates as your so called evidence, that's fine but I'll argue your credibility. I, on the other hand, didn't make such generalization and only indicated that my personal experience was contrary, and believe that the participation numbers in minor lacrosse might support my opinion.

My personal experience isn't "so-called" evidence, it's just evidence. Take it or leave it. Your numbers about participation in lacrosse are fairly meaningless, as I've pointed out. Lots of people play soccer, lots of people play lacrosse, hell, lots of people play chess. That doesn't mean that any of those people are going to support professional franchises in T.O.

You've made quite an incorrect assumption here Ranger. I can in fact name the winners and in most cases the finalists of the Mann Cup for the last decade or longer (probably not back to '82 though) and I would bet that people who play lacrosse are knowledgable about what happens within their game. There isn't a local Major team where I am but I'm well aware of the junior players turning pro, playing major and even the number of Canadians playing in the US on college scholarships. It's obviously not your game so you shouldn't really be making wild statements like that.

Doctor, let's have a poll on The Fan, or something, and see just how widespread support for your sport is. I'm quite certain it's considerably less than you think it is.

My point was that when the alternatives have grass root support, are reasonably priced (approximately $10 for a Major game and you can see the Rock for $20 in the lower bowl) and decent venues, it stands out as one of the "billion other things to do" in the city.

Sure it does. If the marketing is there. That was MY point - it all stems from talking about the CFL and how they lost thousands of fans because they thought people would just keep coming. Sorta like baseball. None of this makes Toronto a "bad sports town". In fact, that the Rock, with astute marketing and plenty of success, can draw well, is a testament to how many sports fans there are in Toronto.

If I'm someone with enough cash to buy a franchise in the some professional league (SlamBall for example) and all you can give me are novelty, marketing and winning as the keys to success for your league, I'm going to take a pass... leagues need to have a better plan than that.

Uh, like what? I'm not sure I see your point anymore.

I said that there wasn't widespread support for professional lacrosse, and that it took astute marketing and tons of success for the Rock to fly in Toronto. That and the novelty factor. The success of the franchise was far from assured, despite what you and all your lacrosse-loving friends may think. Novelty means that something is new - that's all - professional lacrosse is a relative novelty for Toronto. It makes no difference how much grass roots support there is for it - that's not the Toronto market. You've got to make a splash, and then hope to hold on to fans for the long-term with good marketing. When the novelty and success of the Rock wear off, we'll see how well their marketing department can hold on to fans. Where the CFL is concerned, that was damn poorly.

And if you'll take a pass at something that's novel, marketed well, and the local team is going to have lots of success, that's your loss - cf. the Rock. Especially if you're going to take that money in 1980 and invest it in something stable and Canadian - like the Argos, say.

 

[The Doctor]

*waves white flag*

 

[spiff]

Geez,

What have I done? All I wanted to know is what kind of interest there was in seasons tickets for the baby Leafs.....

LOL

 

[The Doctor]

can't you tell, spiff...we don't really have many opinions on hockey (or any other sport) around here.






uncle!

 

[RemyMartin]

can't you tell, spiff...we don't really have many opinions on hockey (or any other sport) around here.


you are right, because he and his assOCIATES are the only people here that knows everything about sports.