Are the Iraqi people better off?

[onthebottom]

Are the Iraqi people better off now than they were a year ago? Note, this is not a question of if the US should have done what it did or if the ends justify the means. Just, are the people better off, international politics aside.

OTB

 

[CyberGoth]

ROFL! Introducing; President Clarke!

well, lets see, gwb lied about things, told the UN to piss off, went to war, failed to find WMDs, and now is finding himself mired in a situation similar to the one the British found themselve in the 1920s. [the British Empire bankrupted itsself trying to manage Iraq, WW2 pushed them over the edge thus leading to the colonial implosion in the 1950s and 60s.

when cnn started tossing around phrases like "lightning war" or "Blitzkrieg" they had no clue wtf they were talking about.

I remember the Soviet experience in Afghanistan...

and I remember posting in march about "no way this will be fast, it will be long and messy"

dear george... "TOLD YA SO!!!" yer fucked, have a nice day.

ps: it was dumb of George Sr. to arm and train Osama Bin Ladin in the 1980s when he was fighting the Soviets.

[LAUGHING HIS ASS OFF AT THE IRONY]

the Iraqi peope are partially better off, Saddam Hussien NEEDED TO GO AWAY. but was not as much as a threat as george and tony said. therefore he could have down on the "baddies list" behind "Lil Kim" [north korean hardline stalinist dictator with nukes and little impulse control] oh and isnt the Canadian Army leading the chase for Bin Ladin on the ground?? he's a deadman walking... we just gotta catch up with him...

anyone wanna guess who wins the next elections probably?

 

[GregTangier]

Well, it's only been 8 months and i don't ever recall GW ever saying it was gonna be fast, they may yet find WMD. Even if they never do, it's better for the Iraqi people. CNN did say the war was gonna be quick, everyone knew that, but the rebuilding was going to take years. Japan, Germany, Italy, and Vietnam all took time too. Now look at those countries. Free, democratic, civilized, and with strong economies.

BTW--it was a lightning war, compared to all other conflicts in the past. The only way the US could have made it faster is if they beamed themselves in.

I actually admire GW. This guy knows the implications of his actions but is willing to stake his political career on trying to do the right thing. The US is dammed if they do and dammed if they don't about everything it seems.

You mention US involvement with Osama Bin Laden, what about Russian involvement with N. Korea? Where is Russia now?

 

[CyberGoth]

Russia is now a third rate bankrupted, socially unstable politically chaotic MESSSSSS

oopps, they fall down go boom.,
[gee Afghanistan and Reagans arms race were expensive]

 

[GregTangier]

oh BTW, you mention little impulse control about Kim. So far he is all talk, perhaps its all a ruse or maybe he does have nukes, well just have to see what this guy is really about.

Iraq has used gas on Iran and invaded Kuwait. They have more than N Korea demonstrated "little impulse control"

 

[GregTangier]

Russia is now a third rate bankrupted, socially unstable politically chaotic MESSSSSS

oopps, they fall down go boom.,
[gee Afghanistan and Reagans arms race were expensive]

it's too bad, they do have many talented scientist. Some are working in the west, but more are selling their talents to "rogue" nations.

Halfganistan was expensive to the USSR because of US influence. The results would have been the same if the US was not involved. It's always easy to look in hindsight to say it could have been like this. But hey, the cold war was the cold war!!

 

[thighspy]

Unsolvent Yank..

GEE i am so glad You( US) is rebuilding the world--You are so Noble..

Better pay attention to your Balance of payments , your National Debt and so on,that should keep you busy.

Life is too short to hurry.

 

[GregTangier]

Re: Unsolvent Yank..

GEE i am so glad You( US) is rebuilding the world--You are so Noble..

Better pay attention to your Balance of payments , your National Debt and so on,that should keep you busy.

Life is too short to hurry.

there wont be any national debt because the US economy will get more eficient by outsourcing call centers to India and manufacturing to china!!

 

[CyberGoth]

oh BTW, you mention little impulse control about Kim. So far he is all talk, perhaps its all a ruse or maybe he does have nukes, well just have to see what this guy is really about.

Iraq has used gas on Iran and invaded Kuwait. They have more than N Korea demonstrated "little impulse control"

Saddam needed to be destroyed because he used chemical weapons on his own PEOPLE!

North Korea has announced they have one nuclear device and this is likely to be true.

but then, this guy grew up in a hardline stalinist state, being told by everyone he is "son of god and can do no wrong" the fact that he's short and really massively insecure makes me worry.

what happens if he snaps?

 

[GregTangier]

Saddam needed to be destroyed because he used chemical weapons on his own PEOPLE!

North Korea has announced they have one nuclear device and this is likely to be true.

but then, this guy grew up in a hardline stalinist state, being told by everyone he is "son of god and can do no wrong" the fact that he's short and really massively insecure makes me worry.

what happens if he snaps?

ya i really dont like the guy either. It's just that the US had to prioritize it's resources. can't fight everyone at the same time!!

 

[GregTangier]

You mentioned earlier about "little impulse control". I have to give credit to Isreal. These guys are surrounded by so much shit and they haven't blown their neighbors away!! Speaking of insecure dictator types, Im just trying to imagine if nukes were in the hands of Syria, Iran, Lebanon, even Saudi Arabia. If the balance of power were reversed, i don't see Isreal standing today.

 

[Muddy]

The question was:

Are the Iraqi people better off now than they were a year ago?

And my comment is:

How the fuck do WE know? You trust journalists "embedded" with American and British troops? You trust George Shrub and his cronies?

If the answer to those last two questions is "Yes" then you're barmy.

 

[CyberGoth]

they likely are a bit, but to what degree is at present UNCLEAR.
[even with the propaganda filter]

 

[CyberGoth]

oh gods.. bleah...

please dont get me started on the middle east. I expect everything between the mediteranean and the indian oceans to go up in flames in the next 5 years.

got it?

they all crazy!

I dont even think its a good idea for the isrealis to have nukes but they do.

gods I miss the cold war. hehe, at least I got my piece of the Berlin Wall.

You mentioned earlier about "little impulse control". I have to give credit to Isreal. These guys are surrounded by so much shit and they haven't blown their neighbors away!! Speaking of insecure dictator types, Im just trying to imagine if nukes were in the hands of Syria, Iran, Lebanon, even Saudi Arabia. If the balance of power were reversed, i don't see Isreal standing today.

 

[CyberGoth]

they're venting, it will eventually settle down... may take a while.

 

[CyberGoth]

oooh, I like how you think. Ever watch Max Headroom [the ABC TV series]

 

[ShizzleMaNizzle]

Re: Of course...

..they are better off. Just check out CNN or the BBC. When Saddam was around, there's no way these people could have gone out on a sunday afternoon with a firearm of their choice,thrown rocks, done some retail looting , or sniping at U.S. soldiers, or if they choose, blow up their fellow countrymen in their places of worship. They would have been beheaded in an instant under the old regime. What was once a rather dangerous activity is fast becoming a popular recreational past time,with much greater odds of returning home afterwards for an evening of pizza and beers. Iraqui's are, for the first time in their lives,experiencing the opportunity to express their freedom in a wide variety of ways, and they seem to be loving it. It's about time these folks started having a blast. Why should only the Palestinians be having all the fun???????

stupid inferior non-white cultures. let's just nuke them all and be done with it.

 

[ShizzleMaNizzle]

Saddam was a bad dude. Really bad dude. That is agreed.

But you gotta think that before the war, Iraqis still had some food, water and shelter. Oh no, wait... no.. those darn 'kill the iraqi children' sanctions were in place back then. The only thing holding the country together was, ironically, the regime and the oil.

hmm... out of the frying pan and into the fire would be very accurate for this particular situation.

I just wish I was there so I could actually know what it's like instead of sitting in my nice leather chair, in front of my nice and fast computer, in my nice suburban house and pontificating on what's good or what's bad for the Iraqi people.

I make me sick.

 

[CyberGoth]

the world is way scarier than you want to know...

I like having stable electricity, and TV, and computers, and technology, and cute grrls to hang out with, and make art, and not have to worry about bombs going off outside or the water mains suddenly bursting. I can reasonably trust that the water wont kill me, and if it does make me sick, the hospital works. and so on.

and I refuse to feel any guilt about it at all. I've seen some of these countries first hand on the ground and YUCK!!!! thats no fun!!! but it can be fixed as soon as people quite mass murdering eachotehr for stupid petty reasons.

oh fuckit, lets party!

 

[Dave in Phoenix]

Russia is now a third rate bankrupted, socially unstable politically chaotic MESSSSSSQUOTE]

Actually its economy has been very strong lately, two bond rating services have increased its bonds to investment grade and it is repaying foreign debt early.

It has a "mess" in some of the republics, but it is doing quite well compared to a few years ago.