Arabs are blind by choice

train

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scouser1 said:
not that I am condoning it because when used against civilians it is a despicable act.
There has only been one military target hit in all the non-middle east attacks in the last 5 years. All the remainder were civilian targets.

What it comes down to is this anyone who is pro Israel falls into two camps one is the evangelical book of Revelations nut jobs e.g. http://www.cufi.org/
I agree they are nut jobs but far less evil than the fascist Muslim fudementalists such as the Taliban. It would appear that all religious wack jobs are cause for concern regardless of religion. Some have proven more dangerous than others.

or simple bigots who hate Arabs and think of them as sand ni...... or camel jockeys
There is a huge amount of people that are capable of distinguishing between a terrorist and someone who is simply muslim. Real bigotry is also classifying every non-arab as a regious wack-job or a bigot. Typically these arguments are employed when logic does not provide an alternative.
 

DATYdude

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scouser, you're obviously showing yourself to be a hater by lumping all Israel supporters into groups of either "nutjobs" or "bigots".

I support Israel. Not christian or religious so I guess I fall into camp two, a bigot.

But I don't have anything against Muslims or Arabs except those who have intractable hate for me, for Jews, for Israel, when dollars to doughnuts they don't know me of any other Jews or Israel other than the crap they have been fed.

It is these ignorant or wilfully blind haters of Israel who fall into one of two camps...

And on and on the ignorance goes.

Anyway there's no point in attempting to show you that there are human beings on the other side of the fence, and that they matter too.
 

solitaria

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Inferno said:
Analyze my earlier quote from Meir. Let it sink in. Now, is it true or not? Who preaches 'martyrdom' as a weapon? Who else conscripts their young to become walking bombs? Show me anyone but Arabs that use this form of 'resistance' as a tactic. Now show me one - one! - Jewish suicide bomber.
Ever heard of a Kamikaze?

I can quote 2 past Israeli PM´s defending terrorism as a legitimate form of defence.

Please inform yourself before you pull unfounded statements out of your ass.

Inferno said:
If the Arabs genuinely sought peace - real, bilateral peace with a sovereign state; not one achieved through war and destruction - do you really believe that Israel would slap away the olive branch so that it's soldiers could continue fighting and dying?
Why doesn´t Israel put a fence up around the green line of the west bank and give it over to the Palestinians? Instead they use American money to settle it even further. The Israelis egg on terrorism so they have an excuse not to hand over stolen land.

Inferno said:
If you do, you fail to understand the sanctity that Israelis place on their own lives. Think about it: why do you think that in past prisoner exchanges, they agreed to swap more than 400 Arab prisoners for one Israeli captive? Why? Because that one Jewish life is more precious to Israel than hundreds - even thousands - of their enemies' lives. They place more emphasis on saving their own soldiers than killing their foes.
You make cowardice and ignorance sound like such a good thing.
 

solitaria

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Carcharias said:
Train, that's a good point, but it leaves a vital question unanswered: Certainly not all Muslims are terrorists, but why are almost all terrorists are Muslim?

That's not rhetorical; I'd really like to know.
War is the terrorism of the rich and powerful, and terrorism is the war of the poor and powerless - Peter Ustinov
 

basketcase

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So that means no Muslims are rich and powerful?

But last I checked, there were a bunch of Saudis and the like at the top of the Forbes list.

scouser1 said:
...
What it comes down to is this anyone who is pro Israel falls into two camps one is the evangelical book of Revelations nut jobs e.g. http://www.cufi.org/

or simple bigots who hate Arabs and think of them as sand ni...... or camel jockeys, have ya seen the Lebanese, they look like your average southern Europeans hmmmm
I wonder why Israel has such a large peace movement then. Do they fit into the nut jobs or the bigots? The peace groups are so active that many western countries would consider arresting them for treason. Of course logic and reason go against your arguement so you can ignore this.
 

Inferno

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solitaria said:
Ever heard of a Kamikaze?

I can quote 2 past Israeli PM´s defending terrorism as a legitimate form of defence.

Please inform yourself before you pull unfounded statements out of your ass.
Clubbing a woman over the head also used to be called "courtship" 10,000 years ago, but I think society has moved beyond that. Get with the times.

Can you cite any recent examples of non-Muslim suicide attacks? Kamikazes haven't been used in more than 50 years (and their country had a couple of nukes dropped on it as a reminder never to do it again). In light of how well that deterrent worked, maybe Israel should raze every square inch of southern Lebanon to teach Hezbollah a similar lesson. I hope it doesn't come to that, but if Iran - sorry, Hezbollah - lobs one more Katyusha into Israel, don't say they didn't have it coming to them.

I'd also like to see your quotes from "2 Israeli PMs defending terrorism as a legitimate form of defence". You'll be lucky to pull those out of your ass, because they don't exist, at least not in their original context. But I'm sure you'll make every effort to twist them to suit your means.

solitaria said:
Why doesn´t Israel put a fence up around the green line of the west bank and give it over to the Palestinians? Instead they use American money to settle it even further. The Israelis egg on terrorism so they have an excuse not to hand over stolen land.
Why should the Palestinians automatically get it? Why is their claim to the land more legitimate than Israel's? Have they done anything with the land they DO have, besides burning tires on it?

Why doesn't Israel just march into the Mediterranean, for that matter? Apparently, that would solve the whole issue.

solitaria said:
You make cowardice and ignorance sound like such a good thing.
Typical terrorist mindset: conciliation = weakness.

Well, if valuing the lives of one's family is "cowardice", I'm sure the Israelis would prefer to be seen as cowards. They would rather save the lives of their own children than dance on the rooftops (and fire Kalashnikov rounds into the sky - civilized behaviour, that) when Arab blood is spilled.

The only ignorance demonstrated by the Israelis in exchanging prisoners was thinking they could negotiate with terrorists. Instead, all they have done is incited them to commit more kidnappings.

As your "cowardice" quote demonstrates, the only things the Arabs understand and respect is force. Unfortunately, it's something the Israelis have learned to dish out all too well.
 

scouser1

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could we please stop using the term fascist Islamist, the term is nothing more than for shock value used by the Georgie Jr administration to dumb things down, the ideology of Mussolini and Franco has absolutely nothing to do with Bin Laden, and it lends nothing new to the discourse and discussion

kind of like Nazi communists :) (see episode of the Simpsons)
 

Inferno

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Scouser, I love it when you post... If only to gawk at that hot chick in your sig.

Not much of an artist (I think my 5-year-old could have painted better Lebanese flags on her cheeks) but man, has she got a sexy set of peepers.

Sorry to digress. Back to our regularly scheduled partisan debate.
 
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solitaria

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Inferno said:
Can you cite any recent examples of non-Muslim suicide attacks? Kamikazes haven't been used in more than 50 years (and their country had a couple of nukes dropped on it as a reminder never to do it again). In light of how well that deterrent worked, maybe Israel should raze every square inch of southern Lebanon to teach Hezbollah a similar lesson. I hope it doesn't come to that, but if Iran - sorry, Hezbollah - lobs one more Katyusha into Israel, don't say they didn't have it coming to them.
You aren´t particularly bright, are you Inferno? I can´t say your perspective is surprising especially considering the online handle you have chosen for yourself.


Inferno said:
I'd also like to see your quotes from "2 Israeli PMs defending terrorism as a legitimate form of defence". You'll be lucky to pull those out of your ass, because they don't exist, at least not in their original context. But I'm sure you'll make every effort to twist them to suit your means.
You are so willfully ignorant it is pitiful. I´ll quote 3 Israeli PMs.


1) "We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."

-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.


2) "I would have joined a terrorist organization." --Ehud Barak, 1999, when asked by a reporter what he would have done if he were born a Palestinian.

3) "neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat." -- Yitzhak Shamir


Inferno said:
Why should the Palestinians automatically get it? Why is their claim to the land more legitimate than Israel's? Have they done anything with the land they DO have, besides burning tires on it?
"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."

-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.
 

Inferno

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Yeah, I must not be particularly bright, solitaria, because I cannot understand - much less accept - the point you are attempting to make with your quotes (which, as I suspected would be the case, were taken out of context).

Moreover, your post exposes you for what you really are: a petty name caller who does not know how to wield information to construct an effective debate.

I mean, come on - criticizing my online handle? Wow, that really bolstered your argument... not to mention your credibility.

But hey, keep it coming. I wouldn't want you to keep all that anti-Israel hate bottled up inside. It's not healthy.

Scouser, thanks for the link, man (although truth be told, none of the chicks in that gallery are as hot as the one in your sig!)
 

solitaria

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Inferno said:
Yeah, I must not be particularly bright, solitaria, because I cannot understand - much less accept - the point you are attempting to make with your quotes (which, as I suspected would be the case, were taken out of context).

Moreover, your post exposes you for what you really are: a petty name caller who does not know how to wield information to construct an effective debate.

I mean, come on - criticizing my online handle? Wow, that really bolstered your argument... not to mention your credibility.

But hey, keep it coming. I wouldn't want you to keep all that anti-Israel hate bottled up inside. It's not healthy.

Scouser, thanks for the link, man (although truth be told, none of the chicks in that gallery are as hot as the one in your sig!)
I knew you couldn´t counter my points.

Why don´t you just admit that you are wrong? You were wrong when you said that only Muslims use terrorism as a tactic and that the Israelis are above terrorism. I quoted 3 Israeli PM´s who expressed very pro-terrorist ideals after you tried calling a bluff and now you got nothing.

I´m so sure I took the quotes out of context. Humanity is all the same it is just the circumstances that are placed on them that are different. The two sides in this conflict are just a reflection of the other.

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.
 

Inferno

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solitaria said:
I knew you couldn´t counter my points.

Why don´t you just admit that you are wrong? You were wrong when you said that only Muslims use terrorism as a tactic and that the Israelis are above terrorism. I quoted 3 Israeli PM´s who expressed very pro-terrorist ideals after you tried calling a bluff and now you got nothing.

I´m so sure I took the quotes out of context. Humanity is all the same it is just the circumstances that are placed on them that are different. The two sides in this conflict are just a reflection of the other.

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.
Again, WHAT POINTS are you making? That Israelis are not above terrorism? That Israeli politicians once espoused terrorism? Please state your case!

If you're so sure you took the quotes out of context - as you state above - why did you do it? Or is that just smug sarcasm masking itself as ignorance?

And while we're on the topic of quotes, since when does quoting (or purporting to quote) text make it actual fact?

Until you can put forward an actual case of your own device - and not just reproduce specious quotes - we're done. There's no point in arguing with someone who can't formulate an argument.

There might be a reason you are 'solitaria'. Look into it.
 
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Away from here.
www.reddit.com
Islam is in a terrible period right now, and the rising tide of fascism that is spreading through the Arab world is terrifying and complicated to unravel.

I've noted in other threads that the destruction of Lebanon was so sad as it represents the very organic possibility of "democracy" that Bush wants to plant through the tip of a gun. So very sad.

The problem is there are so many social, political and religious angles to terrorism that 99% of us are happy to settle in simple truths that make fascism attractive.

I agree that appeasement won't work, but Bush's is just another brand of fundamentalism that is also bound to fail.
 

scouser1

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Cinema Face said:
LMAO When was Islam ever NOT in a terrible period?

ohhh between the 7th and 14th century when books were banned and mud flowed in the streets of Europe, ever heard of the Dark Ages dumb ass!!! Baghdad, Damascus and Granda where centres of learning, read a book sometime that doesnt involve Jill sucking on Jack's knob
 

LancsLad

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scouser1 said:
ohhh between the 7th and 14th century when books were banned and mud flowed in the streets of Europe, ever heard of the Dark Ages dumb ass!!! Baghdad, Damascus and Granda where centres of learning, read a book sometime that doesnt involve Jill sucking on Jack's knob


That was before their current prophet mohammid came on the scene. I had that old question months ago asking what the hell had they done for the last 800 years. Answer pretty much was envy us and want to kill us.


PS. I'd like to borrow the book on Jill sucking Jacks knob, interested in finding out how it ends.


.
 

solitaria

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Inferno said:
Again, WHAT POINTS are you making? That Israelis are not above terrorism? That Israeli politicians once espoused terrorism? Please state your case!
That Islam is not the cause of terrorism and hate. Basically I was commenting on your ridiculous assertions that it was so since no other societies employ martyrdom/terrorism as a means of warfare and that Israelis were peace loving. Obviously you never read history or you would have known about kamikazes as well as been a little bit more familiar with what past Israeli PM´s have stated with regards to terrorism. If what you think is true then why were there kamikazes and Israeli PM´s who were advocates of terrorism?

Inferno said:
If you're so sure you took the quotes out of context - as you state above - why did you do it? Or is that just smug sarcasm masking itself as ignorance?
I didn´t take the quotes out of context. It was sarcasm but it is quite evident that I am not the one that is ignorant here as you have a propensity to make statements that are hopelessly inaccurate to bolster your views.

Inferno said:
And while we're on the topic of quotes, since when does quoting (or purporting to quote) text make it actual fact?
When it is verbatim.

Inferno said:
Until you can put forward an actual case of your own device - and not just reproduce specious quotes - we're done. There's no point in arguing with someone who can't formulate an argument.
You asked me to start putting forth the quotes dumbass.

Inferno said:
I'd also like to see your quotes from "2 Israeli PMs defending terrorism as a legitimate form of defence". You'll be lucky to pull those out of your ass, because they don't exist, at least not in their original context.
 

basketcase

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scouser1 said:
could we please stop using the term fascist Islamist, the term is nothing more than for shock value used by the Georgie Jr administration to dumb things down, the ideology of Mussolini and Franco has absolutely nothing to do with Bin Laden, and it lends nothing new to the discourse and discussion

kind of like Nazi communists :) (see episode of the Simpsons)
Think about the majority of Muslim states when reading the definition from wikipedia,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
Fascism is a radical totalitarian political philosophy that combines elements of corporatism, authoritarianism, extreme nationalism, militarism, anti-anarchism, anti-communism and anti-liberalism.
Totalitarian? check
corporatism? debatable but I'll give you this one
authoritarian? check
nationalism? check
militarism? check
anti-anarchism, anti-communism? probably a bit out of date
anti-liberalism? double check

more detail (see bolded sections)
Scope of the word Fascism

The term fascism is sometimes (by both supporters and opponents) applied to other authoritarian regimes of the same period such as those of Imperial Japan under Hideki Tojo, Austria under Engelbert Dollfuss, Argentina under Juan Peron and Greece under Ioannis Metaxas. Its use for similar but longer-lived regimes such as Spain under Francisco Franco and the Estado Novo of António de Oliveira Salazar in Portugal is widespread among opponents of those regimes but is often disputed. This trend toward the term being used only by opponents is amplified in the case of more recent authoritarian regimes such as Indonesia under Suharto.

Although the broadest definitions of fascism may include every authoritarian state that has ever existed, most theorists see important distinctions to be made. Fascism in Italy arose in the 1920s as a mixture of syndicalist notions with an anti-materialist theory of the state; the latter had already been linked to an extreme nationalism. Fascism in many ways seems to have been clearly developed as a reaction against Communism and Marxism, both in a philosophic and political sense, although it opposed democratic capitalist economics along with socialism, Marxism, and liberal democracy. It viewed the state as an organic entity in a positive light rather than as an institution designed to protect collective and individual rights, or as one that should be held in check. It tended to reject the Marxist notion of social classes and universally dismissed the concept of class conflict, replacing it instead with the struggle between races, and the struggle of the youth versus their elders. This meant embracing nationalism and mysticism [religion?], and advancing ideals of strength and power as means of legitimacy, glorifying war as an end in itself and victory as the determinant of truth and worthiness. An affinity to these ideas can be found in Social Darwinism. These ideas are in direct opposition to the ideals of humanism and rationalism characteristic of the Age of Enlightenment, from which liberalism and, later, Marxism would emerge.

Fascism is also typified by totalitarian attempts to impose state control over all aspects of life: political, social, cultural, and economic. The fascist state regulates and controls (as opposed to nationalizing) the means of production. Fascism exalts the nation, state, or race as superior to the individuals, institutions, or groups composing it. Fascism uses explicit populist rhetoric; calls for a heroic mass effort to restore past greatness; and demands loyalty to a single leader, often to the point of a cult of personality.
The shoe seems to fit pretty well.
 

LancsLad

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basketcase said:
Think about the majority of Muslim states when reading the definition from wikipedia,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism


Totalitarian? check
corporatism? debatable but I'll give you this one
authoritarian? check
nationalism? check
militarism? check
anti-anarchism, anti-communism? probably a bit out of date
anti-liberalism? double check

more detail (see bolded sections)


The shoe seems to fit pretty well.

Excuse me but the shoe and feet reference are copyrighted by myself and are best used when showing the two faced approach to terrorism practised by isreal.

if someone does it to them they are horrified and cry /whine to the world about the terrible actions of those nasty anti-semetic meanies, yet when isreal is formed following their terrorist acts they say its ok and needed to form the state.

Same shoe/ different foot.
 
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