Apple and the FBI

[danmand]

They happened, and all that spying illegal and legal didn't help one bit to stop any of it. So the spy agencies are trying to scare us into giving them even more secret power we must never question (and can't question) to spy on everyone, just like the Stasi had. Did they keep the wall from falling? Secret police oppress their society, they do not defend it.

What thwarted plots? Do name some. As for the present case, there's already all the evidence needed to convict the shooters without breaking into their iPhone.

You are absolutely correct, old man jones. It is not the data on the iPhone the fbi is after, it is a backdoor for all iphones. The current problem could easilty be solved by Apple and even McAffee, by putting a team of apple developers in a room and giving them the iPhone. They could surely hack the iPhone and retrieve the data.

But that is not what the FBI is after.

 

[Aardvark154]

You are absolutely correct, old man jones. It is not the data on the iPhone the fbi is after, it is a backdoor for all iphones.

The Director of the FBI has specifically stated that this is NOT what they are asking for and they are content with Apple retaining control of, and not releasing the software to them.

 

[danmand]

The Director of the FBI has specifically stated that this is NOT what they are asking for and they are content with Apple retaining control of, and not releasing the software to them.

Then the problem is solved. There is an offer on the table by McAffee (!!), and I am sure Apple would match the offer. Problem solved, or is it???

 

[Aardvark154]

Then the problem is solved. There is an offer on the table by McAffee (!!), and I am sure Apple would match the offer. Problem solved, or is it???

Not my position to say. If it were I would want the technical experts to assure me that McAffee's hack would not result in the information on the I-phone being wiped. Seemingly there would be far less risk of this with Apple being in charge.

However, from everything I've read Apple is still fighting the court order.

 

[danmand]

Not my position to say. If it were I would want the technical experts to assure me that McAffee's hack would not result in the information on the I-phone being wiped. Seemingly there would be far less risk of this with Apple being in charge.

However, from everything I've read Apple is still fighting the court order.

As McAffee(!) has pointed out, the court have seemingly received poor advice on this subject. That is of course if you accept the FBI's assurances that they do not want a back door.

I refuse to believe that the FBI does not have a lab that is capable of disassembling an iPhone and retrieving any data it needs from memory and storage devices.

 

[Frankfooter]

The current problem could easilty be solved by Apple and even McAffee, by putting a team of apple developers in a room and giving them the iPhone. They could surely hack the iPhone and retrieve the data.

But that is not what the FBI is after.

It sounds like that's not the issue, the iphones password was reset, probably by the FBI, which made access to the iCloud backup impossible.
That's an FBI screwup.
The FBI wants Apple to disable the feature that causes the phone to be wiped clean and reset after too many attempts to crack the password.

 

[danmand]

It sounds like that's not the issue, the iphones password was reset, probably by the FBI, which made access to the iCloud backup impossible.
That's an FBI screwup.
The FBI wants Apple to disable the feature that causes the phone to be wiped clean and reset after too many attempts to crack the password.

It is more complicated than that. The iPhone has a security feature that, after a number of attempts to crack the code deletes the data.

 

[IM469]

It is more complicated than that. The iPhone has a security feature that, after a number of attempts to crack the code deletes the data.

That is my understanding. The iPhone is intact but they know if they randomly try passwords - the data will be irretrievably lost.

It's irrelevant who holds the original 'key' software - once the iPhone has a method to retrieve the secured data - that will make the iPhone vulnerable to any hacker. Software companies have spent millions trying to prevent hackers from getting into their products - it's crazy that they now develop one and 'hope' no one discovers how to use it.

 

[Aardvark154]

That is my understanding. The iPhone is intact but they know if they randomly try passwords - the data will be irretrievably lost.

It's irrelevant who holds the original 'key' software - once the iPhone has a method to retrieve the secured data - that will make the iPhone vulnerable to any hacker. Software companies have spent millions trying to prevent hackers from getting into their products - it's crazy that they now develop one and 'hope' no one discovers how to use it.

Which since the software would remain at Apple under their control, certainly does not imply very good things about the honesty and integrity of the software development engineers at Apple and or Apple's ability to have systems which are physically isolated from the internet.

 

[oldjones]

The Director of the FBI has specifically stated that this is NOT what they are asking for and they are content with Apple retaining control of, and not releasing the software to them.

And if Apple becomes the FBI's unwilling slave forced to do its bidding, won't there be an unending stream of iPhones to be hacked?

Why don't you outline the existing legal machinery that can be used to force you or I to invent something that does not exist to serve the self-proclaimed needs of law enforcement? Examples would be nice.

And let's never forget our close friends an Allies in Beijing and Moscow — to say nothing of Damascus and any number of other strife-torn repressive capitals — are all cheering on the FBI. They may not be able to enslave Apple to their whims, but once the hack is birthed, it's only a matter of time and dollars before they get it and are using it repressively.

Not that any American Acronym Agency would ever do that. But don't Google Pentagon Papers any of you youngsters.

 

[Aardvark154]

Some interesting updates on the ruling in Brooklyn the beginning of this week that Apple did not need to unlock an I-Phone (not the same case as being discussed here).

The judge was a U.S. Magistrate, not a U.S. District Court Judge - this makes it very likely that the ruling will be struck down.

Magistrate Judge Orenstein treated the statutory language as if no court had interpreted it before, and then developed a new theory of what the language should mean. He then applied his theory to reject the government’s application. But the U.S. Supreme Court has already interpreted that language, and the Supreme Court’s interpretation is very different from his.

See the view of Orin Kerr of the George Washington University Law School on all this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...steins-apple-opinion/?wpmm=1&wpisrc=nl_volokh

 

[IM469]

Which since the software would remain at Apple under their control, certainly does not imply very good things about the honesty and integrity of the software development engineers at Apple and or Apple's ability to have systems which are physically isolated from the internet.

It is not Apple engineers that are the worry. Once a back door (yes, what the FBI is suggesting is a software access for all iPhones) has been developed, anyone with the software key - independent if it was Apple or source code developed by a hacker - can access all the information on an iPhone. Your ID, banking & e-mail information could be hacked as you walk by a man with a computer in a coffee shop, use your phone to purchase something, install a new game app, ..etc.. etc.

Just remember all the hacks that were done on operating systems that you read about. These were the result of someone finding a design flaw. Here they are looking for a designed access they know exists.

 

[Frankfooter]

Just remember all the hacks that were done on operating systems that you read about. These were the result of someone finding a design flaw. Here they are looking for a designed access they know exists.

No, the FBI are asking Apple to design a flaw, to disable the feature the wipes out your phone if someone tries to guess the password to often and fails.

 

[oldjones]

No, the FBI are asking Apple to design a flaw, to disable the feature the wipes out your phone if someone tries to guess the password to often and fails.

In other words, the FBI is seeking to compel Apple to design software according to the goals and purposes of the FBI. This software, which the order would compel Apple to assign any number of professionals to 'invent', could then be used against any other same-model iPhone.

While there may be legalistic quibbles in the judicial order Aardvark refers to above, the Magistrate was on very solid ground pointing out that Congress had repeatedly and clearly refused to consider and pass legislation that would require and provide for such access to cell phones by the authorities. If the lawmakers — that'd be 'we the people' — don't want such 'openings', what rightful power can their police have to force someone to build one?

None.

 

[Aardvark154]

While there may be legalistic quibbles in the judicial order Aardvark refers to above, the Magistrate was on very solid ground pointing out that Congress had repeatedly and clearly refused to consider and pass legislation that would require and provide for such access to cell phones by the authorities.

Those "legalistic quibbles" are that the U.S. Supreme Court has applied a different standard to the analysis and hence the ruling by the Federal Magistrate is likely to be overturned on appeal.

 

[IM469]

No, the FBI are asking Apple to design a flaw, to disable the feature the wipes out your phone if someone tries to guess the password to often and fails.

Wow, that means anyone without any software experience can use a brute force password technique to get into anyone's iPhone. That's even worse !!!

 

[Frankfooter]

Wow, that means anyone without any software experience can use a brute force password technique to get into anyone's iPhone. That's even worse !!!

Yes, that's what the FBI wants.
So that they can install it on an iphone as an update and then through brute force hack the phone.

Apple is in the right to refuse to write this code or trust the FBI not to let it out in the wild.

 

[eznutz]

Justice Department accuses Apple of 'false,' 'corrosive' rhetoric
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/03/10/just...-false-corrosive-rhetoric-in-fbi-dispute.html

 

[SkyRider]

Apparently, the FBI might have found a way to unlock the bastard's iPhone. Maybe the FBI is getting more familiar with how the damn thing works. Or maybe Apple is helping behind the scene. And/or a loyal patriot American supergeek(s) (not all Americans are traitors) is helping behind the scenes.

Update: Apparently, an unnamed 3rd party has come forward to help the FBI.

 

[SkyRider]

US Department of Justice drops case against Apple, stating FBI has hacked SB shooter's iPhone, without the company's help.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/03/28/news/companies/fbi-apple-iphone-case-cracked/index.html?adkey=bn

Good. Meanwhile Apple's new operating system is all screwed up. Good again.