Another police shooting - how do they justify this one?

[kherg007]

I didn’t say NOT to teach them. I said you shouldn’t have to. Please read what I actually wrote.

Are you honestly going to tell me that in a proper world, citizens are the ones that require education and training on how to deal with the police????? No. It is the police that should be held to the higher standard and should be properly educated and trained on how to deal with the people.

Yes I am. Absolutely I am. To not do what you can to help clarify situations to reduce likelihood of mistakes is foolish.
As I said we teach kids this now in schools.
None of this takes the cops off the hook. We should be investing a ton to get them the best training. I wrote that earlier. Please note that.
But you walk up on a situation, you don't know who is who, and who is armed, this is where a number of bad shootings happen. Anything a citizen can do to clarify will help everyone.

 

[Jenesis]

Yes I am. Absolutely I am. To not do what you can to help clarify situations to reduce likelihood of mistakes is foolish.
As I said we teach kids this now in schools.
None of this takes the cops off the hook. We should be investing a ton to get them the best training. I wrote that earlier. Please note that.
But you walk up on a situation, you don't know who is who, and who is armed, this is where a number of bad shootings happen. Anything a citizen can do to clarify will help everyone.

You’re pandering to police and you are letting them off the hook when you shift the responsibility of the interaction on the person not the officers. But hey - you are entitled to your opinion.

To be clear - I’m not saying be an asshole to cops either here. But I will just never agree that the people HAVE to be educated on how to deal with police other than being taught how to exercise their rights. People being shot for doing as they are told and getting a license or in this case, following instructions of getting a pot of boiling water off the stove and then being shot.

Let’s keep it to this actual topic. Please review the actual case of this woman and tell me what education she could have gotten to help avoid being shot in the head? She was asked for ID she was getting it. She was asked to get the pot of water off the stove she did. She called police because of someone lurking outside, cops didn’t even look. She made a comment about Jesus can got shot in the head. What magical education would have prevented that????

Sorry you have a kid you have to teach because police are fucked and will shoot your kid but that is not how it is suppose to be and by not acknowledging where the true responsibility lies, you give the police more power to continue shooting people.

 

[kherg007]

You’re pandering to police and you are letting them off the hook when you shift the responsibility of the interaction on the person not the officers. But hey - you are entitled to your opinion.

I'm not. Not at all. But you're positioned this as an either/or argument. I'm saying we do both. It's like saying I should not teach my sons how to carry themselves in a traffic stop. It would be negligent of me to not do so.

I've seen this up close and how it goes bad. And as a citizen I'd like to know what to do to lower the chances of a horrible accident. Whats wrong with that?
One of the fundamental elements of good community policing is to get cops and citizen's to see things through each others eyes. To say one has no obligation to do so? I dont think that's good in the long run for anyone.

 

[Jenesis]

I'm not. Not at all. But you're positioned this as an either/or argument. I'm saying we do both. It's like saying I should not teach my sons how to carry themselves in a traffic stop. It would be negligent of me to not do so.

I've seen this up close and how it goes bad. And as a citizen I'd like to know what to do to lower the chances of a horrible accident. Whats wrong with that?
One of the fundamental elements of good community policing is to get cops and citizen's to see things through each others eyes. To say one has no obligation to do so? I dont think that's good in the long run for anyone.

Again - your opinion. I don’t think we should have “how to interact with police” educational course. Yes, as far as responsiblity is concerned, it is an either/or. The police have the responsibility, not the civilian. That is where the full responsibility lies.

Now because police are incompetent and don’t have enough training and apparently won’t get enough training, then yes citizens have to take matters into their own hands and yes, have to try and figure out how to deal with cops when they get pulled over into traffic stops or any other altercation they may have with police, but bottom line they should not have to, period.

Now please, look into this case and tell me what education she missed that would have helped her not get shot. Show me where she failed in the responsibility you seem to think she has in getting properly educated and how that education would have avoided this shooting.

Show me where her responsibility in her own death should have started??? When they illegally asked her for her ID instead of looking for the prowler? When she followed instruction on removing the boiling pot of water. I want to hear from you, where education would have helped her with these police. I’m not talking generalized situations anymore. I’m talking this case. Let’s deal with this case solely.

 

[Knuckle Ball]

Again - your opinion. I don’t think we should have “how to interact with police” educational course. Yes, as far as responsiblity is concerned, it is an either/or. The police have the responsibility, not the civilian. That is where the full responsibility lies.

Now because police are incompetent and don’t have enough training and apparently won’t get enough training, then yes citizens have to take matters into their own hands and yes, have to try and figure out how to deal with cops when they get pulled over into traffic stops or any other altercation they may have with police, but bottom line they should not have to, period.

Now please, look into this case and tell me what education she missed that would have helped her not get shot. Show me where she failed in the responsibility you seem to think she has in getting properly educated and how that education would have avoided this shooting.

Show me where her responsibility in her own death should have started??? When they illegally asked her for her ID instead of looking for the prowler? When she followed instruction on removing the boiling pot of water. I want to hear from you, where education would have helped her with these police. I’m not talking generalized situations anymore. I’m talking this case. Let’s deal with this case solely.

FWIW…the police did in fact check the area for a prowler and found no one there.

They then went back to Sonya Massey’s home and in speaking with her found that she was speaking strangely. Ms Massey has a history of mental health problems and has been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. It sounds to me like the police were trying to sort out what was going on and whether she was okay…and then things escalated and the cop completely overreacted and killed her.

As far as what @kherg is saying, I believe you are both correct. I would certainly prefer to live in a world where parents with children of colour don’t have to have “the talk” with their kids…but that’s not the world we live in. I believe in advocating for the world you describe but without getting killed in the process.

How did Sonya Massey die?

Sonya Massey called the police to report a suspected prowler outside her home, but tensions escalated quickly.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[Jenesis]

FWIW…the police did in fact check the area for a prowler and found no one there.

They then went back to Sonya Massey’s home and in speaking with her found that she was speaking strangely. Ms Massey has a history of mental health problems and has been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. It sounds to me like the police were trying to sort out what was going on and whether she was okay…and then things escalated and the cop completely overreacted and killed her.

As far as what @kherg is saying, I believe you are both correct. I would certainly prefer to live in a world where parents with children of colour don’t have to have “the talk” with their kids…but that’s not the world we live in. I believe in advocating for the world you describe but without getting killed in the process.

How did Sonya Massey die?

Sonya Massey called the police to report a suspected prowler outside her home, but tensions escalated quickly.

www.aljazeera.com

At the time, I heard they didn’t so thank you for clarifying.

 

[kherg007]

Again - your opinion. I don’t think we should have “how to interact with police” educational course. Yes, as far as responsiblity is concerned, it is an either/or. The police have the responsibility, not the civilian. That is where the full responsibility lies.

Now because police are incompetent and don’t have enough training and apparently won’t get enough training, then yes citizens have to take matters into their own hands and yes, have to try and figure out how to deal with cops when they get pulled over into traffic stops or any other altercation they may have with police, but bottom line they should not have to, period.

Now please, look into this case and tell me what education she missed that would have helped her not get shot. Show me where she failed in the responsibility you seem to think she has in getting properly educated and how that education would have avoided this shooting.

Show me where her responsibility in her own death should have started??? When they illegally asked her for her ID instead of looking for the prowler? When she followed instruction on removing the boiling pot of water. I want to hear from you, where education would have helped her with these police. I’m not talking generalized situations anymore. I’m talking this case. Let’s deal with this case solely.

This case you refer to appears open and shut. But I have not been talking about this case. I started my original post with a disclaimer that I'm not talking about that case. You keep referring back to this case. Not me. Please note that.
And I'm glad we agree that cops need more training, and so do people. And we agree that it sucks that we have to brief our kids, particularly if they are men of color, to be extra careful in situations in dealing with them. We agree we SHOULD not have to. But I would be derelict as a father if I DID not do it. And if it can save my kids lives it can save others. And I'm sure, as you're a kind and thoughtful person, you agree with that. And, as you've noted, no amount of training works if you have some total bone head cop. I get that and agree with you. But most cops aren't bone heads. But they're humans, and armed. Thus painting with a broad brush ...well lets just say if training helps save a few lives....why not?

You seem furious that it is even being raised. Me too! Made me sick to my stomach having to find a yellow plastic wallet to put the car registration and insurance card into VS the black one it was in, so as to make sure it does not get mistaken for a gun if my lads get pulled over.

But there is a reality that exists. Teaching people the reality is better than not, which is why what i am advocating is actually being done that in schools right now in the USA! The new "run, hide, fight" trainings (school shooters) given to students in high school and uni teaches them the cops POV (rushing to the scene, shots fired, not knowing who, what, where, etc), and things to do when you break cover so you minimize the chance you get confused with the perp. I think we'd agree that training should continue, despite our disgust we have to do it in the first place. So we agree alotmore than disagree.
Thanks for the robust discussion.

 

[basketcase]

I find this post in poor taste after last nights "gunfight" at Midland and Ellesmere where a young man and woman were killed, with multiple guns and bullet casings found at the scene. This post deals with the US situation, not a Canadian one.

The amount of danger that our neighborhoods are in as a result of guns and gangs is ridiculous. And to focus on a US police shooting today when we should be focused on what makes Toronto neighborhoods safer, including the role of police, is inappropriate.

Who knows what police are facing when they go into a situation when they are facing the type of harm and death that we're now seeing on the streets of Toronto.

I think the attempt to change the topic from an unjustified police shooting to a gun battle between criminals is in poor taste.

 

[escortsxxx]

Sonya Massey: Bodycam shows Illinois deputy shooting Black woman in her home - National | Globalnews.ca

Sonya Massey had called 911 to report someone prowling near her home when she was shot and killed by one of the police officers sent to help her.

globalnews.ca

Clearly when I say “they” in the title, I mean the cops on scene. Arrests have been made and everyone is condemning this.

Furthermore, if the video I am thinking (loading now so I am not sure) its not the cops. One cop is trying to control his partner. The shooting has been fired many times before for bad behavior from other police departments. Systematized incompetence to allow bad cops to be rehired - or in the case in Toronto to flourish and get rich selling drugs and stolen goods, and shack down.

Corruption probe envelops another McCormack son

Another of former Toronto police chief Bill McCormack's sons is under investigation for alleged wrongdoing.

www.theglobeandmail.com

 

[escortsxxx]

I find this post in poor taste after last nights "gunfight" at Midland and Ellesmere where a young man and woman were killed, with multiple guns and bullet casings found at the scene. This post deals with the US situation, not a Canadian one.

The amount of danger that our neighborhoods are in as a result of guns and gangs is ridiculous. And to focus on a US police shooting today when we should be focused on what makes Toronto neighborhoods safer, including the role of police, is inappropriate.

Who knows what police are facing when they go into a situation when they are facing the type of harm and death that we're now seeing on the streets of Toronto.

I partially disagree. Unfortunately, many issues in the USA have parallels in Canada, including two key problems highlighted in this story:

1. Police protectionism: The police often defend and reinstate incompetent or dangerous officers instead of removing them from service. In this case, the officer in question had a history of misconduct and should have never been rehired.
2. Force training: Police training has shifted from de-escalation and helping people to a dominance model, prioritizing officer control over public safety. The woman in this story made a fatal mistake by assuming the police were there to help, as she had called them for assistance. However, the officers perceived her as a threat, demonstrating a misguided and dangerous approach to policing

I teach all young people in my circle that COPS are dangerous and to be feared. They have to be handled like wild animals - that is carefully - no sudden movements, no loud voices etc. Young people have a problem with at least pretending respect as in most situations disrespect has no consequence. A poster said we should teach police survival and I totally agree. We learned it my school though more under you can go to jail rather than you may die.

 

[Robert Mugabe]

Another police shooting - how do they justify this one?


Nice thing about being cops is.....they don't have to.