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An Israel too little-known

DATYdude

Puttin' in Face Time
Oct 8, 2003
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Very well-put, very simple.

The opinion mirrors my own experience in Israel and with Israelis, both right and left wing, who I know as not hateful or aggressive people. I would urge anyone who really wants to know a bit about Israel and Israelis to either look for them here in Toronto or even better, go to Israel for a couple of weeks. You won't find any shortage of people willing to talk politics with you.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060821.wcomment0821/BNStory/International/home

An Israel too little known
DAVID HERLE

Special to Globe and Mail Update

There was nothing about growing up in Saskatchewan 30 years ago that prepared me for Israel. As far as I knew, there were almost no Jewish people around. Nor did I know anybody who appeared to me to hate Jews, although I could tell that there were plenty of people who kind of disliked them.

Nor did I know anybody who was Arabic, or who believed in any god other than Jesus Christ. The first thing I ever figured out about Jewish people, as I sat daydreaming in Sunday mass, was that they were pretty messed up to have killed Jesus since I'd never heard a bad thing about Him (I think the Roman Catholic Church deals with this more sensitively now).

Nor could the physical natures of Israel and Saskatchewan have been more different. Saskatchewan has more space than any place could need. The village I was born in had about 800 people. It was seven miles or so down the road from another village of the same size. A string of them spread out like that all along the highway that cut through rich and fertile farmland.

Over the course of my life, the concept of war has been both theoretical and remote. It has never once occurred to me that I might actually have to fight in a military. When Canada did engage in wars, it wasn't in Prelate or Regina, but far-off places like Europe or Korea.

I had the opportunity to spend 10 days in Israel just this spring. Israel is an amazing place. First of all, it is impossibly small: To paraphrase P.J. O'Rourke, you can't swing a cat by the tail without going through customs. This has one immediate ramification — your enemies are close by. Close enough to walk.

That's why, kicking around Jerusalem my first evening in Israel, I noticed that I had seen more machine guns and soldiers in that night than in all the rest of my life. Almost all bars and restaurants "wanded" everybody who came in to check for weapons, because people regularly walk into Israel and blow themselves up in a crowded restaurant or bus. You would think just the possibility of it would incite panic, but everything seemed pretty routine. When I was there, Israel was building a fence to discourage this practice. I thought that seemed reasonable.

The second thing that struck me as remarkable about the place was how committed to it everybody I met was. It seemed as much a belief system as a country. There is a sense, inspiring to me, that they are building a dream. And they make a pretty convincing case that they have more claim to that territory than anybody else, if you take the long view over the past 3,000 years. They have taken barren desert and created lush farmland. They have built a modern competitive economy in a region without any. They have created a democracy, including freedom of religion and expression, and gender equality, in a region where such rights do not exist. They are proud of their citizens army, where every person, male or female, must do two years of military service. The people I met didn't begrudge their service. They were proud of it, because they saw Israel as a collective enterprise and everybody had a duty to protect it.

And the key concept is protection. The Israelis I met — from all walks of life — were not aggressive toward their adversaries in the region. They did not want more territory. In fact, most I met thought the settlements had been a mistake and they supported the current government's plan for unilateral withdrawal. They did not seek to impose their religion or culture on others. They did not want conflict of any kind. They wanted peace. There was much sadness that years of good-faith peace negotiations with Yasser Arafat had come to nothing.

Nobody liked the fence, but they hoped it, along with unilateral withdrawal from the settlements, might bring some peace and calm. Then Israel was attacked, without warning or provocation, its soldiers kidnapped, its towns bombed.

Fundamentally, Israel is always on the defensive. All Israelis want is to exist and be able to live. It is their opponents, including Hezbollah, who seek to deny them that basic request.

Iran is funding Hezbollah. Iran's government wants to wipe Israel from the map. It is in the face of that kind of aggression that Israel has decided to remove Hezbollah's ability to threaten it like that — at least for the time being. You can never feel safe for long there. If Hezbollah is the surrogate for Iran, and other forces and funders of terrorism, Israel is a surrogate, too.

While the rockets rain down on Israel, the target is the West — Western values, Western prosperity. To these forces, Israel stands as a lonely outpost of the West. If we don't fight terrorism there, we'll have to fight it here, because the Hezbollahs and al-Qaedas won't be satisfied with defeating Israel — they'll move on to other targets.

I hope the Israel I saw prevails.

David Herle is a partner in the Gandalf Group, a polling and communications strategy firm.
 

Kitwat

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Aug 18, 2006
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You are absolutely right. If the Palestinians put down their weapons there will be peace. If the Israelis put down their weapons they will be slaughtered. It all comes down to the fact that Hezbollah and Hamas do not recognize Israel's reight to exist and are committed to it's destruction. Who is Israel to negotiate with?
It makes me sick that many Cdns. think that Canada should be neutral. We should never be neutral in a choice between right and wrong, good and evil.
There is no moral equivalency here. Israel is not perfect and sometimes responds on the harsh side. But they are always responding. Israelis had not fired a shot into Lebanon in six years till 8 of their soldiers were killed (everyone forgets the 8 who were killed) and 2 kidnapped.
 

toni59

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Jul 24, 2006
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Kitwat said:
You are absolutely right. If the Palestinians put down their weapons there will be peace. If the Israelis put down their weapons they will be slaughtered. It all comes down to the fact that Hezbollah and Hamas do not recognize Israel's reight to exist and are committed to it's destruction. Who is Israel to negotiate with?
It makes me sick that many Cdns. think that Canada should be neutral. We should never be neutral in a choice between right and wrong, good and evil.
There is no moral equivalency here. Israel is not perfect and sometimes responds on the harsh side. But they are always responding. Israelis had not fired a shot into Lebanon in six years till 8 of their soldiers were killed (everyone forgets the 8 who were killed) and 2 kidnapped.

Kitwat, Pals should never put the weapons down. They are under military occupation since 1967 and they have to fight for the most important thing: FREEDOM.
You speak about the 8 soldiers killed. How about the 81 Pals killed (including a whole family during picnic) before the 8 soldiers got killed?
Do you know there are 75 UN resolutions against Israel and 0 against Palestinians?

No justice, no peace.
 

Kitwat

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The family was hit by an iunidentified rocket. Israel didn't fire any shells that day. They were probably hit by a terrorist rocket that went astray. You might want to check on those UN resolutions. If you are right it just goes to show how tilted the UN is. There are 22 Muslim countries and 1 Jewish country. Israel always starts off a UN vote down 22 to 1.
What "freedom" are they fighting for? Arab Israeli citizens have more rights and freedoms than they would have in any Muslim state. They will get their own state, though I doubt it will be "free" whenever they decide to live in peace with their neighbor instead of trying to destroy it.
 

toni59

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Kitwat said:
The family was hit by an iunidentified rocket. Israel didn't fire any shells that day. They were probably hit by a terrorist rocket that went astray.
HOHOHo! you have a nice explanation for everything!! How do you know that Israel didn't fire any shells that day? You were there? You were there? You have information from the Israeli army? :)

"If you are right it just goes to show how tilted the UN is. There are 22 Muslim countries and 1 Jewish country. Israel always starts off a UN vote down 22 to 1."

Another nice joke from Kitwat. There are only 2 countries hostile to Israel: Syria and Iran. In most of the others goverments are puppets of the USA. Israel has US and UK perment members in the UN Sec. Council, givving it priviledges the Pals do not have. The US have used more of 50% of their veto for resolutions that target Israeli aggression.

"Arab Israeli citizens have more rights and freedoms than they would have in any Muslim state"
That's why they were living under military law until 1966? That's why there were ads in the Israeli newspapers "only jews" until 1988? That's why they are the 20% of the population and Israel allows to own only the 7% of the land? And let's see what Israel's big brother says about that:
"Arab citizens of Israel face systematic discrimination, the highest poverty and unemployment rates. Despite they represent more than the 20% of the population of Israel, the state reserves for them only the 7% of the land. Israel also imposes on them very high taxes in order to constrain the Arab population and to control their birth rates “The Israeli government does not provide Israeli Arabs, who constitute 20% of the population, with the same quality of education, housing, employment, and social services as for Jews. In addition, government spending is proportionally far lower in predominantly Arab areas than in Jewish areas” (Human Rights Practices for Israel and the Occupied Territories for 1999, US Department of State, February 25, 2005).
 

Kitwat

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I've spent a fair amount of time in New York. I don't find the Jews any more aggressive or out spoken than the Italians or the Irish. New York is a tough aggressive city. If you see only the Jews in New York in that light maybe you should write Mel Gibson and join his fan club. I'm sure he would welcome you.
 

DATYdude

Puttin' in Face Time
Oct 8, 2003
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OK I didn't mean THOSE Jews, lol. No seriously, there is nothing in Israel remotely like the murderous hatred that can be seen every day an muslim countries.

And I'm not saying that it's Islam itself, or the government organizing and promoting this crap, becasue I think without some kind of control very few people could muster this kind of hatred. It really has to be ingrained, taught, reinforced, and the haters must be separated from the hated. Because when they see that the hated is a real human being very smilar to himslef, it is very difficult to sustain the hate.

In Israel Jewish Israelis fear Arabs because they know they are hated, and they know that an Arab on a bus could mean grave danger. But in times of calm Israelis don't hate the Arabs.
 

Kitwat

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Yeah, I have information from the israeli army. The rocket that hit that family was not of a type in Israel's possession. But Hezbollah and Hamas have the type of rocket involved.
Qustion....What Muslim country would you prefer to live in ahead of Israel?
 

allaboutben

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Kitwat said:
I've spent a fair amount of time in New York. I don't find the Jews any more aggressive or out spoken than the Italians or the Irish. New York is a tough aggressive city. If you see only the Jews in New York in that light maybe you should write Mel Gibson and join his fan club. I'm sure he would welcome you.
I'm talking in the big banks, investment houses, traders, etc. Very aggressive which is a requirement for the job. I'm not talking the dockyards chumps.
 

DATYdude

Puttin' in Face Time
Oct 8, 2003
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Toni, you are dead right about Israeli Arabs, they are discriminated against systematically. (Note that you fail to distinguish between Arabs in the occupied territories and those in Israel.) But if you can find me a reliable source that shows that the average Arab outside Israel has more freedom or economic opportunity than the average Arab citizen in Israel, I'd be surprised.

Also, Israel was shelling near that beach that day. But if you look back into the aftermath of the deaths that day, you'd see that Hamas/PA did not provide one shred of EVIDENCE that it was an Israeli shell that killed those people. Israel said it was probably a buried explosive that killed the people. If you can find anything definitive (no blogs please!) that puts the blame on Israel I'd like to see it.
 

toni59

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Kitwat said:
Yeah, I have information from the israeli army. The rocket that hit that family was not of a type in Israel's possession. But Hezbollah and Hamas have the type of rocket involved.
Qustion....What Muslim country would you prefer to live in ahead of Israel?

I don't know what else can you think to support the Israeli war crimes!! You just copy+paste silly Israeli propaganda. And how do you know that "The rocket that hit that family was not of a type in Israel's possession. But Hezbollah and Hamas have the type of rocket involved", as Israelis never went there to see what was that type of the rocket you are mentioning!!!!!!!
You know, it's waste of time for me to sit and chat with brain-washed jews and semite supremascists to whom I have to prove that I'm a man and not an elephant.

Israel had the chance for peace. The only thing is to give back the stolen land and let the Pals to have their own country. It is Israel's choise to live under these conditions.

no justice, no peace.
 

DATYdude

Puttin' in Face Time
Oct 8, 2003
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OK then thanks for at least showing us your true beliefs, which of course cannot be changed by evidence and reason.

Who is it exactly who's brainwashed?

It's exactly attitudes like yours that keep the war going.
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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toni59 said:
Israel had the chance for peace. The only thing is to give back the stolen land and let the Pals to have their own country. It is Israel's choise to live under these conditions.

no justice, no peace.
The way I see it, the Palestinians had the chance for peace and their own nation, starting in 1948. There always seems to be some reason why the militants don't want peace.

Unfortunately, they haven't realized that their own nation will happen until Israel is convinced that they can live in peace.

Until they decide to put down their weapons, there will be no justice or peace.
 

Kitwat

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The Palis have had plenty of opportunity for peace but like the quote goes, "the Palestinians never miss an oportunity to miss an opportunity. "
They had a deal at Camp David till Arafat threw the "Right of Return" on the table unexpectedly thereby moving the goal posts again. There is no interest in peacuful co-existence with Israel.
 

toni59

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basketcase said:
The way I see it, the Palestinians had the chance for peace and their own nation, starting in 1948. There always seems to be some reason why the militants don't want peace.

Unfortunately, they haven't realized that their own nation will happen until Israel is convinced that they can live in peace.

Until they decide to put down their weapons, there will be no justice or peace.
Kitwat said:
The Palis have had plenty of opportunity for peace but like the quote goes, "the Palestinians never miss an oportunity to miss an opportunity. "
They had a deal at Camp David till Arafat threw the "Right of Return" on the table unexpectedly thereby moving the goal posts again. There is no interest in peacuful co-existence with Israel.


Whoh, again the Semite supremascists have their own explanation for everything!

If Pals put weapons down, they will never overthrow the Israeli Apartheid they live. These are the only people in the world they believe that Pals are not under military occupation!

Let's see who is the terrorist:

121 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 775 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.

1,084 Israelis and 4,171 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.

7,633 Israelis and 30,670 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000.

1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 9,599 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel.

60+ new Jewish-only settlements have been built on confiscated Palestinian land between March 2001 and July 11, 2003. There have been 0 cases of Palestinians confiscating Israeli land and building settlements.

And after all these facts, the Semite supremascists still insist that the terrorists are the Palestinian people!!!
 

scouser1

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Dec 7, 2001
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Pickering
anyone who wants to see Israeli democracy I suggest taking a trip to Jerusalem, mostly Jewish western Jerusalem could pass off as any city in the Western world, mostly Arab east Jerusalem well the garbage is piled high and they intentionally get less money from the government in order to keep them down and/or eventually ethnically cleanse the city of the Arabs, yeah a beacon of democracy in the Middle East, of course this is all useless discussing since in about 20 years the Arabs will be the majority when you encompass Israel and the occupied territories, then its bye bye racist Zionist bigoted state with your apartheid.
 

DATYdude

Puttin' in Face Time
Oct 8, 2003
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So numbers alone prove something? Would Israel be right if more Israelis were killed than Palestinians? Your argument doesn't make sense.

BTW, Arabs are Semites too, I think your term "Zionazi" is far more catchy, if equally ignorant...

Please refer me to the Israeli law that prohobits Arab Israelis from purchasing lands in the new settlements. BTW - I don't disagree that they're on stolen land.

Maybe the Palestinians will accept something rather than getting nothing. Nah, they would rather fight forever so that they can eventually take Israel back and turn it back into a desert. Brilliant.

Sorry you make me angry because you're so one-sided, not all Palestinians are like this but the moderates sure aren't looking very numerous or powerful.
 

DATYdude

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Oct 8, 2003
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scouser, you continually make the mistake of lumping in territory that the Palestinians call occupied (i.e. territories which were in Jordan before June 4, 1967) and those that are Israel. Arab east Jerusalem, at least as far as the Palestinians are concerned, are not part of Israel. But when it comes time for handouts, oh right they are part of Israel, they shuld be supported by Israel etc...

So make up your mind, does Israel have a right to be in East Jerusalem and the territories? If they do, just call it Israel, or Judea and Samaria. If not, don't whine about how the Palestinians can't even manage to collect their own garbage, they are so devoid of any institutions that don't have an "armed wing".

It's funny that you say how Israel is an apartheid state in one breath and then rely on Israel being a democracy to self-destruct when Arabs outnumber Jews. Certainly if the Arabs took over you'd see the death of democracy (if every other Arab state is any indication), but Israel one way or the other will not hold onto the territories.
 

DATYdude

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Oct 8, 2003
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scouser you just drive me crazy with your singular hate for Israel, it's as if Israel is the only party in the middle east which does any wrong.

But your sloganeering doesn't convince me.
 
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