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Americans dissatisfied with the way things are going in the USA!!!

maxweber

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Oct 12, 2005
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savagery

This Friedmanite supply-side stuff has been tried, flat-out, in Chile and the ex-S.S.R.s. The result is appalling misery, inequality, and government by organized crime. The Firedmanites invariably respond that the conditions weren't right, or that it wasn't really free matrketeering, or some other patent nonsense.

But the plain truth is that these experiments did work, exactly as they were supposed to. If you had the balls (or the guns) to corner a market in some commodity or service, you got to hang on to virtually all of what you.. earned. That's the sole bottom line for the neo-cons: a just society lets the rich hang on to their dough. As the still-depressing approval figures for shrubble-yoo show, the American people still haven't twigged to this neanderthal reality.
MW
 

langeweile

Banned
Sep 21, 2004
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In a van down by the river
maxweber said:
This Friedmanite supply-side stuff has been tried, flat-out, in Chile and the ex-S.S.R.s. The result is appalling misery, inequality, and government by organized crime. The Firedmanites invariably respond that the conditions weren't right, or that it wasn't really free matrketeering, or some other patent nonsense.

But the plain truth is that these experiments did work, exactly as they were supposed to. If you had the balls (or the guns) to corner a market in some commodity or service, you got to hang on to virtually all of what you.. earned. That's the sole bottom line for the neo-cons: a just society lets the rich hang on to their dough. As the still-depressing approval figures for shrubble-yoo show, the American people still haven't twigged to this neanderthal reality.
MW

Oh boy..now you finally reveal your trueself..so it's about classwarfare right?

I haven't learnedd too mcuh in life and I am certinly not as well educated than some of you are, but rest assure "The rich" always find a way to keep their money. legally, semi-legal or illegal, but they will.

Low taxes for me is not about the rich keeping more money. it's about guys like myself, that are stuck in the middle.
i have worked on both sides of the border here, and let me tell you the middle class Canadain get's screwed here.
I could make 30% less in gross pay in the USA and still walk away with the same "take home".
imagine i could have the extra money for myself? Our gracious leader wouldn't have to provide me with National daycare, because my wife could actually stay home and take care of our kids.


I don't understand people like you(unless of course you work for the goverment), your indifference to have your elected officials rape you, out of your own money, defies all logic.
Your blind trust, "That goverment knows best", is not beyond my understanding.

Lower taxes does not only benefit the rich......it benefit the little guy, like me , too.
 

papasmerf

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Oct 22, 2002
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DonQuixote said:
The poll is obviously crap,and the surveyors had it in
for GWB. All left wing propaganda!!!!!!:D

Don

There, beat you to it arcy and lange.


LOL
Bout time you agreeied
 

arclighter

Guest
Nov 25, 2005
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maxweber said:
This Friedmanite supply-side stuff has been tried, flat-out, in Chile and the ex-S.S.R.s. The result is appalling misery, inequality, and government by organized crime. The Firedmanites invariably respond that the conditions weren't right, or that it wasn't really free matrketeering, or some other patent nonsense.

But the plain truth is that these experiments did work, exactly as they were supposed to. If you had the balls (or the guns) to corner a market in some commodity or service, you got to hang on to virtually all of what you.. earned. That's the sole bottom line for the neo-cons: a just society lets the rich hang on to their dough. As the still-depressing approval figures for shrubble-yoo show, the American people still haven't twigged to this neanderthal reality.
MW
Supply siders aren't the same as monetarists. The rich aren't satisfied to "hang on to their dough", they want to make more dough. Do you know of a more efficient economic system than laissez-faire capitalism for maximizing GDP?
 

papasmerf

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DonQuixote said:
It has nothing to do with cutting taxes.

Well Said

Spoken like a true tax lawyer:rolleyes:
 

arclighter

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Nov 25, 2005
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DonQuixote said:
How do you propose to get a majority in the legislature to
cut spending? I don't recall that ever happening. The major
reason the Clinton era showed huge surpluses is because
of an increase in income resulting in more taxes. He didn't
cut the income tax to generate more revenue. The era
showed remarkable cooperation between the branches,
less the wasted time on the impeachment, where
industries were deregulated that timed with an increase in
technology resulting in more efficient workforce capturing
more markets.

It had nothing to do with this argument about taxes.
Wealth is created by efficient workforce and new technology
thereby generating increased tax revenues.

It has nothing to do with cutting taxes.
The income came from the stock market bubble. In the long run lower taxes yield higher growth rates. Before Reagan, the highest marginal tax rates were 90%. Let's say you are a doctor earning $300,000 with a marginal tax rate of 90%. Would you make any effort to increase your income knowing that the government is going to take 90%?

Same situation, but the marginal tax rate is 25%. Would a doctor have enough of an incentive to increase production? Most likely yes.

Why is New Hampshire's economy growing so much faster than that of their next door neighbor Vermont’s. Look at their business tax environments, and you will understand.

For the record, the Bush administration is taking in more tax revenue than that collected by the Clinton administration and taxes are lower.
 

arclighter

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Nov 25, 2005
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zanner69 said:
well said Don

its the hard working people of america that keep the nation going!!
And why do you want to give so much of your hard earned money to our lazy government?
 

arclighter

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Nov 25, 2005
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zanner69 said:
obviously you misinterpreted my point - I was referring to Don's comment about wealth is created by an efficient workforce.
And efficient work forces are motivated by return on their individual efforts. The higher the incentive, the more efficient they become.
 

papasmerf

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10 out of ten people I talked with today feel they are dissatisified with the way things are.

Yes this is hard to believe but 10 of 10 want lower taxes and fewer social programs. Some went as far to say they would like smaller government. THOSE BAASTARDS!!!!!!!!
 

arclighter

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Nov 25, 2005
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DonQuixote said:
Not even close to the truth. The 90% rate went back to during WWII.
The max tax rate before Reagan was 55%. There were also more
itemized deductions allowed then and senior citizens weren't taxed
on their social security retirement benefits. The max rate was higher
but there were other code provisions that gave huge breaks.

Try again. You're obviously fixated on tax rates and not
innovation and production.
Not true. Kennedy cut the highest marginal tax rate from 90% down to 70%. Reagan cut the 70% highest bracket down to 28% (individuals).


Ps Technically, WWII was before the Reagan administration, but I know what you mean.
 

maxweber

Active member
Oct 12, 2005
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Shaving Neo-Con lies with Occam's Razor

DonQuixote said:
Try again. You're obviously fixated on tax rates and not
innovation and production.
OR: my little neo-con recipe really is correct: "let the rich keep it" is the only "principle" these weasels know.

MW
 

papasmerf

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DonQuixote said:
Why did they vote for Bush! :confused:
Never asked how they voted

Just did not see that as an issuse, given the election was in 2004.
 

Gyaos

BOBA FETT
Aug 17, 2001
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Heaven, definately Heaven
Reagan made the Japanese Yen to literally appreciate 50 fold. From 231 yen per $1.00 USD down to 150 yen. Then the Japanese got super rich with efficency and it went to 80 yen. We've been living with super rich Japan ever since, even when they are in deflation. I want 150 yen again, sustained.

1.1% growth for Q4 in the USA. Oops! I guess the Enron folks are getting their's tomorrow, so everyone told the real numbers for once.

Gyaos Baltar
 

arclighter

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Nov 25, 2005
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DonQuixote said:
I just checked and your right.

But, the problem with Reagan's tax policies is that as the
top rates were dramatically reduced the federal deficit
went upward even more sharply. The debt became such
a problem it probably resulted in POTUS41s defeat in
his reelection bid in '92. Ross Perot put a dagger in his
heart when Ross announced his candidacy as an independent
running on an anti-deficit policy.

So, these tax cuts and correspondingly increased debt isn't
good for anyone. These debts are a burden. That's what
Greenspan keeps raising. But, we're spending $6-7 billion
a month in Iraq. Sounds like an LBJ president. Expanded
domestic policies [the great society/homeland security] and
a foreign war ['Nam/Iraq] is the formula for failure.
Because I like you DQ, I am going to help you through this. The federal deficit means nothing by itself. The deficit can increase even with increased tax revenues as long as spending increases at a greater rate. You will find that the Kennedy, Reagan, and George Bush tax cuts all led to increased tax revenue.

This may help:

Tax Rates vs Revenue

The Washington Times

The U.S. Treasury has just released some new data that will bring cheer to the advocates of lower tax rates and heartburn to those who advocate higher tax rates.
By way of background, for the last three decades, there has been a fierce debate about which tax rates maximize tax revenue. Economist Art Laffer drew a curve that merely illustrated the well-known concept that at some point a tax rate becomes so high people will find legal or illegal ways of avoiding the tax, and tax revenue actually will fall.
Mr. Laffer was derided by high-tax advocates, who misrepresented his and fellow supply-siders' statements as implying all tax cuts would immediately increase revenues.
In fact, we supply-siders said some tax rates were above their revenue-maximizing point. Cutting these tax rates, would cause the economy to grow faster by stimulating work, saving and investment. There would be less tax avoidance and evasion. Thus, over the long run, tax revenues actually would increase.
The prime example of a tax rate too high to maximize revenue was the capital-gains rate. The capital-gains tax is somewhat unique as many people have discretion whether to sell a particular asset, such as a corporate stock or real estate property. If the tax rate is seen as too high, many people will delay selling an asset they wish to dispose of, in order to avoid the tax. This is known as the lock-in effect.
In the 1970s, Congress increased the capital-gains tax rates a couple of times until the maximum rate was almost 40 percent (precisely 39.875 percent). The combination of high capital-gains tax rates, along with high inflation in the late 1970s, was almost lethal to new investment: Capital gains were not adjusted for inflation, so the effective tax rate on assets sales often exceeded 100 percent.
In 1978, Rep. Bill Steiger introduced a bill, over the objection of President Carter, to reduce the maximum capital- gains rate to 28 percent. Many of us who supported the Steiger bill argued the rate cut should increase revenue. Many in the liberal economic establishment ridiculed us. But after the bill passed, capital-gains tax revenues immediately rose about 30 percent.
Under President Reagan, the capital-gains tax rate was cut again in 1981 to a maximum of 20 percent, then increased in 1986 to 28 percent, with a small additional increase in the early 1990s to 29.19 percent. In 1997, as a result of the Clinton-Gingrich compromise, the rate was cut to 21.19 percent. In 2003 the rate was cut to a 15 percent maximum.
Treasury has now released the data through 2002. As result of the frequent rate changes, we have considerable evidence who was right and who was wrong. When the capital gains tax rate was at its maximum in the late 1970s, capital-gains tax receipts averaged slightly under $8 billion annually.
From 1998 to 2002, the maximum capital-gains tax rate was approximately half the rate of the late 1970s, yet capital-gains tax revenues averaged 11 times higher ($88.6 billion per year), though the economy (nominally) was only 4 times larger.
I have summarized some of the new Treasury data in the following table that clearly indicates how sensitive capital-gains realizations are to tax rates.
It is notable that official government tax forecasting agencies have consistently underestimated gains from rate cuts and incorrectly projected revenue gains from rate increases. I am willing to bet that several years from now, when the data is in on the Bush capital gains tax cut, the critics who opposed the rate cut will again be proved wrong.
If liberals and their media allies would ever take time to look at the data, they would see supply-siders are batting 100 percent [1.000]. But I won't hold my breath waiting for their contrition.
 

arclighter

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Nov 25, 2005
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maxweber said:
OR: my little neo-con recipe really is correct: "let the rich keep it" is the only "principle" these weasels know.

MW
Try to focus MW.

This is the latest data for calendar year 2003 just released in October 2005 by the Internal Revenue Service. The share of total income taxes paid by the top 1% of wage earners rose to 34.27% from 33.71% in 2002. Their income share (not just wages) rose from 16.12% to 16.77%. However, their average tax rate actually dropped from 27.25% down to 24.31%

Think of it this way: less than 3-1/2 dollars out of every $100 paid in income taxes in the United States is paid by someone in the bottom 50% of wage earners. Are the top half millionaires? Noooo, more like "thousandaires." The top 50% were those individuals or couples filing jointly who earned $29,019 and up in 2003. (The top 1% earned $295,495-plus.) Americans who want to are continuing to improve their lives, and those who don't want to, aren't. Here are the wage earners in each category and the percentages they pay:

The top 1% pay over a third, 34.27% of all income taxes. (Up from 2003: 33.71%) The top 5% pay 54.36% of all income taxes (Up from 2002: 53.80%). The top 10% pay 65.84% (Up from 2002: 65.73%). The top 25% pay 83.88% (Down from 2002: 83.90%). The top 50% pay 96.54% (Up from 2002: 96.50%). The bottom 50%? They pay a paltry 3.46% of all income taxes (Down from 2002: 3.50%). The top 1% is paying nearly ten times the federal income taxes than the bottom 50%! And who earns what? The top 1% earns 16.77% of all income (2002: 16.12%). The top 5% earns 31.18% of all the income (2002: 30.55%). The top 10% earns 42.36% of all the income (2002: 41.77%); the top 25% earns 64.86% of all the income (2002: 64.37%) , and the top 50% earns 86.01% (2002: 85.77%) of all the income.


To save time in the future, let's just call this standard response number 23.

Ps Does this data support your claim that "the rich keep it"?
 

maxweber

Active member
Oct 12, 2005
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then & now

DonQuixote said:
Why is it that the super-super rich give their money away to aid humanity?
Make that the old super-rich. I could be wrong about this, because I haven't seen any figures--perhaps niot surprisingly, because if I'm correct, they don't exist. But how much do the Republican wealthy give in charity? I mean genuine humanitarian charity, not the millions Richard Mellon Scaife spent in amassing dirt on Bill Clinton. But how much do folks like Cheney, Shrub, and Conrad Black give every year? (Oh, and let's also exclude "charitable" religious causes like Opus Dei and Pat Robertson, okay? Sorry, folks, money spent on preventing adolescents from having sex doesn;t count as charity, okay?)

MW
 

langeweile

Banned
Sep 21, 2004
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In a van down by the river
arclighter said:
Try to focus MW.

This is the latest data for calendar year 2003 just released in October 2005 by the Internal Revenue Service. The share of total income taxes paid by the top 1% of wage earners rose to 34.27% from 33.71% in 2002. Their income share (not just wages) rose from 16.12% to 16.77%. However, their average tax rate actually dropped from 27.25% down to 24.31%

Think of it this way: less than 3-1/2 dollars out of every $100 paid in income taxes in the United States is paid by someone in the bottom 50% of wage earners. Are the top half millionaires? Noooo, more like "thousandaires." The top 50% were those individuals or couples filing jointly who earned $29,019 and up in 2003. (The top 1% earned $295,495-plus.) Americans who want to are continuing to improve their lives, and those who don't want to, aren't. Here are the wage earners in each category and the percentages they pay:

The top 1% pay over a third, 34.27% of all income taxes. (Up from 2003: 33.71%) The top 5% pay 54.36% of all income taxes (Up from 2002: 53.80%). The top 10% pay 65.84% (Up from 2002: 65.73%). The top 25% pay 83.88% (Down from 2002: 83.90%). The top 50% pay 96.54% (Up from 2002: 96.50%). The bottom 50%? They pay a paltry 3.46% of all income taxes (Down from 2002: 3.50%). The top 1% is paying nearly ten times the federal income taxes than the bottom 50%! And who earns what? The top 1% earns 16.77% of all income (2002: 16.12%). The top 5% earns 31.18% of all the income (2002: 30.55%). The top 10% earns 42.36% of all the income (2002: 41.77%); the top 25% earns 64.86% of all the income (2002: 64.37%) , and the top 50% earns 86.01% (2002: 85.77%) of all the income.


To save time in the future, let's just call this standard response number 23.

Ps Does this data support your claim that "the rich keep it"?
Here you go with your facts again. How dare you destroy his house of cards? Notice how he suddenly got quiet?
He is just an angry old hippie.
 

maxweber

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Oct 12, 2005
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..who help themselves.. [?]

DonQuixote said:
There are today's benefactors. The Gates Foundation is a force.
He took his sweet time starting it, and waited until the wealth he had was literally embarrassing. Not that he didn't do a good thing; but the delay was unseemly, unsettling--and scarcely proof of his moral excellence.

MW
 
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