Air India Crash

[Lifeis2Short]

In the Germanwings murder-suicide, the investigators analyzed the breathing patterns of the murderer, but the cockpit was relatively quiet.

Germanwings Flight 9525 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Perhaps the EgyptAir very likely murder-suicide is more relevant, since it also involved the fuel cutoff switch.

”Between 1:50:21 and 1:50:23, as the captain began to pull back on his control column, relief first officer Al-Batouti moved the start levers for both engines from the "run" to the "cutoff" position, shutting off fuel flow to the engines. Immediately afterwards, the captain pushed both throttles to their maximum position, but this had no effect, due to the engines' fuel supply having been cut off.”

EgyptAir Flight 990 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Interesting to contemplate whether the fuel cut-off switch should be less easily accessible. Not sure where they are located on Airbus planes?

But one has to consider that the possible perpetrator in the Air India crash denies doing a fuel cut-off. Unlike the Egypt Air pilot who said the following:

”The cockpit voice recorder (CVR) recorded the captain excusing himself to go to the lavatory, followed 30 seconds later by the first officer saying in Egyptian Arabic "Tawkalt ala Allah", which can be translated as "I put my trust in God" or "I rely on God". A minute later, the autopilot was disengaged, immediately followed by the first officer again repeating the same Arabic phrase. Three seconds later, the throttles for both engines were reduced to idle, and both elevators were moved 3° nose down. The first officer repeated "I rely on God" seven more times before the captain suddenly asked repeatedly, "What's happening, what's happening?"

It will probably end up being a huge unsolvable conspiracy theory. Boeing will push like hell the murder-suicide theory. The family of the pilot or co-pilot will furiously deny it. Air India will just want everyone to shut the fuck up about it. Air India isn’t a fancy airline, and it isn’t terribly profitable, but it is an important part of aviation networks, including Air Canada‘s network alliance. It would be a shame if the negative publicity takes Air India down (no pun intended).

While we may never know, as this article illustrates, the longer that time passes, the more plausible the murder-suicide theory becomes for Malaysian 370.

MH370: The Devil Is in the Data

Could data gathered by amateur radio operators finally unlock the truth about the doomed Malaysia Airlines flight?

thediplomat.com

Especially since debris was found.

https://www.cnn.com/2017/03/08/asia/mh370-debris-found

I remember watching Docs on both those crashes. I remember the breathing patterns being analyzed in the Germanwings crash. Plus, the FO had to lock the Cpt out of the cockpit, correct? That's why the CPT's passkey didn't work. Am I remembering that correctly?

The Egypt Air seems a bit more straight forward than this, IMO. I have no experience, but I have to think that one of the pilots would notice the other once switching both engines from RUN to CUTOFF. You have to pull up and push down on both switches. I have no idea. Everything seems fishy at this point. That's why I think it's going to be months/years before they figure this one out for sure. I hate to say this, but I'd rather this be a murder suicide vs another MCAS like debacle. If the software glitched and switched both engines to CUT OFF after rotation for some unknown reason???? That's a much bigger fish to fry.

 

[TauCeti]

“ I hate to say this, but I'd rather this be a murder suicide vs another MCAS like debacle.”

I agree, that’s why I’m going to avoid the 787 for a while.

 

[wiskey bravo]

Any action that takes place in a cockpit comes with a voice from a flight crew member. For instance, on take off, you will hear something along the lines from one Pilot " airspeed alive 80kts "". When a positive rate of climb is established one pilot will say " positive rate " followed by " gear up " from the other pilot. On that note, if the engine switches were selected off in attempt to re-light the candle, there would of been one pilot voicing that action or at least one pilot telling the pilot who's not flying to cycle the engine switch's off and on. I realize they only had seconds to work with, therefore, the Captain could of made the executive decision by cycling those switches without saying anything. I don't see a first officer reaching for that switch unless it was asked for by the Captain. Lastly, I don't think the CVR would be able to hear a switch being toggled. Since I haven't seen or heard anyone say the switches we commanded off by the captain, it leads me to believe a crime was committed.

If a crime was committed, at some point I see another survivable box similar to the CVR with a camera, that's capable of recording a flight. For privacy reasons this camera would only be used as a reference in event of a crash only. We have flight data recorders to help understand the parameters of the aircraft at any given state. There's also Cockpit voice recorders to help investigators determine what conditions took place in the cockpit. The only thing that's missing is the visual aspect. If we saw what happened perhaps mystery cases can be solved a lot sooner.

 

[Patron]

Any action that takes place in a cockpit comes with a voice from a flight crew member. For instance, on take off, you will hear something along the lines from one Pilot " airspeed alive 80kts "". When a positive rate of climb is established one pilot will say " positive rate " followed by " gear up " from the other pilot. On that note, if the engine switches were selected off in attempt to re-light the candle, there would of been one pilot voicing that action or at least one pilot telling the pilot who's not flying to cycle the engine switch's off and on. I realize they only had seconds to work with, therefore, the Captain could of made the executive decision by cycling those switches without saying anything. I don't see a first officer reaching for that switch unless it was asked for by the Captain. Lastly, I don't think the CVR would be able to hear a switch being toggled. Since I haven't seen or heard anyone say the switches we commanded off by the captain, it leads me to believe a crime was committed.

If a crime was committed, at some point I see another survivable box similar to the CVR with a camera, that's capable of recording a flight. For privacy reasons this camera would only be used as a reference in event of a crash only. We have flight data recorders to help understand the parameters of the aircraft at any given state. There's also Cockpit voice recorders to help investigators determine what conditions took place in the cockpit. The only thing that's missing is the visual aspect. If we saw what happened perhaps mystery cases can be solved a lot sooner.

What you describe is the most likely scenario, and the one Boeing hopes is the case.

But I don’t believe the cut-off switch is mechanically connected to the hardware that cuts off the fuel.

Likely the operating software of the plane recognizes that the switch was triggered and sends a message to the hardware to cut off the fuel.

The possibility has been raised that the software believed the cut-off switch had been triggered, when neither the pilot or the co-pilot had done so.

Mechanical, electrical issues could also have led to change in fuel switch positions in ill-fated Air India plane: Experts

Experts believe the Air India aircraft that crashed shortly after takeoff in Ahmedabad on June 12 may have experienced mechanical or power-related issues, possibly triggering a change in the fuel switch positions for both engines.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

Here is a very big question. One of the guys flying the plane said basically why the fuck did you cut off the fuel? The other one said he didn’t.

Did the one asking the question look down and see that the fuel cut off switch had been manually enabled, or did his computer screen simply tell him that it had occurred?

We know one of them turned the fuel switch back on, or at least I think that is the case, since the reports say the switch was in the “on” position in the wreckage. But nothing addresses whether the software, recognizing that a cut-off should not have occurred in-flight, issued a correction and told the hardware to allow the fuel to start flowing again, I.e. to restart the engines. In other words, is it possible that neither guy ever touched the fuel cut-off switch at all.

With no cameras, and with the cockpit noise likely not allowing the “clicks” of the movement of the safety and the valve engagement/disengagement to be heard, we may never know.

Many psychologists and voice analysis experts will analyze the “I didn’t” answer to the question of why did you cut-off the fuel for authenticity. It would be nice to know if the other guy would have been alerted on screen that the fuel cut-off had occurred. I am guessing the screen does let him know that this occurred. It would seem to be rather useful information.

What bugs me with the murder-suicide, is that wouldn’t the guy have been more psychotic? The Egypt Air guy did a religious chant while the other pilots tried to save the plane. The Germanwings murderer didn’t respond at all when the other pilot was trying to break back into the locked cockpit, but was psychotic enough to just sit there quietly and breathe normally while steering the plane into the mountain.

I suppose his denial could have been a plan to deny guilt if the other pilot was able to restart the engines, but “I didn’t“ just seems a strange response from someone in the process of a massive murder-suicide.

In spite of the problems it creates, the U.S. legal system would cause the best experts in every field to pore over the possibilities due to the millions in damages that might occur if it was a software or electrical issue. In a system where it is Sorry someone died, here is $500, there may not be that level of scrutiny.

 

[SchlongConery]

What you describe is the most likely scenario, and the one Boeing hopes is the case.

But I don’t believe the cut-off switch is mechanically connected to the hardware that cuts off the fuel.

Likely the operating software of the plane recognizes that the switch was triggered and sends a message to the hardware to cut off the fuel.

The possibility has been raised that the software believed the cut-off switch had been triggered, when neither the pilot or the co-pilot had done so.

Mechanical, electrical issues could also have led to change in fuel switch positions in ill-fated Air India plane: Experts

Experts believe the Air India aircraft that crashed shortly after takeoff in Ahmedabad on June 12 may have experienced mechanical or power-related issues, possibly triggering a change in the fuel switch positions for both engines.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

Here is a very big question. One of the guys flying the plane said basically why the fuck did you cut off the fuel? The other one said he didn’t.

Did the one asking the question look down and see that the fuel cut off switch had been manually enabled, or did his computer screen simply tell him that it had occurred?

We know one of them turned the fuel switch back on, or at least I think that is the case, since the reports say the switch was in the “on” position in the wreckage. But nothing addresses whether the software, recognizing that a cut-off should not have occurred in-flight, issued a correction and told the hardware to allow the fuel to start flowing again, I.e. to restart the engines. In other words, is it possible that neither guy ever touched the fuel cut-off switch at all.

With no cameras, and with the cockpit noise likely not allowing the “clicks” of the movement of the safety and the valve engagement/disengagement to be heard, we may never know.

Many psychologists and voice analysis experts will analyze the “I didn’t” answer to the question of why did you cut-off the fuel for authenticity. It would be nice to know if the other guy would have been alerted on screen that the fuel cut-off had occurred. I am guessing the screen does let him know that this occurred. It would seem to be rather useful information.

What bugs me with the murder-suicide, is that wouldn’t the guy have been more psychotic? The Egypt Air guy did a religious chant while the other pilots tried to save the plane. The Germanwings murderer didn’t respond at all when the other pilot was trying to break back into the locked cockpit, but was psychotic enough to just sit there quietly and breathe normally while steering the plane into the mountain.

I suppose his denial could have been a plan to deny guilt if the other pilot was able to restart the engines, but “I didn’t“ just seems a strange response from someone in the process of a massive murder-suicide.

In spite of the problems it creates, the U.S. legal system would cause the best experts in every field to pore over the possibilities due to the millions in damages that might occur if it was a software or electrical issue. In a system where it is Sorry someone died, here is $500, there may not be that level of scrutiny.

Very astute, interesting perspective. Especially from a non-pilot!

 

[SchlongConery]

If a crime was committed, at some point I see another survivable box similar to the CVR with a camera, that's capable of recording a flight. For privacy reasons this camera would only be used as a reference in event of a crash only. ..... The only thing that's missing is the visual aspect. If we saw what happened perhaps mystery cases can be solved a lot sooner.

I agree with the Cockpit Cam. But as you know, the AIRLINE Pilots Unions will fight that tooth and nail. Like with CVR's

A $400 GoPro or Insta360 in a Titanium/Sapphire enclosure would help a lot in accident analysis. More and more General Aviation accidents are quickly analyzed with conclusive findings because so many GA pilots use them. Although it could also be argued that a pilot's preoccupation with his cameras take away focus from flying the fucking airplane! Arguably, several YouTubers have met a firey end because they were more interested in performing for the camera than flying the fucking airplane!

As you know, plenty, if not all current production bizjets and airliners have external cameras. The 777-300 has them as standard equipment, I don't know of any cockpit camera options on them though.

There is a combined infrared/white light/and virtual imagery synthetic vision system on a Falcon 8X I was in that was astounding. We were in VMC so didn't take advantage of it but the captain said it was magic in a CAT III approach!

 

[SchlongConery]

It's called Falcon Eye. https://das.falconjet.com/apex/f?p=2000:2841:::NO:::

FalconEye and Synthetic Vision Explained:

• Combined Vision System (CVS):
  FalconEye integrates live camera images (visible and infrared) with a synthetic vision database containing terrain, obstacle, and navigation information.
  
  
• Synthetic Vision:
  The SVS component provides a 3D representation of the outside world, overlaid on the Head-Up Display (HUD), allowing pilots to "see" the terrain and obstacles even in poor visibility.
  
  
• Enhanced Vision:
  The EVS component uses advanced sensors, including infrared and low-light cameras, to provide real-time images of the surrounding environment.
  
  
• Operational Benefits:
  By combining these technologies, FalconEye provides pilots with a comprehensive view of the environment, enhancing situational awareness and enabling safer approaches and landings in challenging weather conditions.