After A Sexual Encounter You Find She's Transgender....

[managee]

1 - The person recounting the story specifically said the crime was commited because someone who was transphobic found out AFTER they had sex, and that was the motive for the crime. How can you say "we just can't know that"? I'm not saying there should be a list, I'm not saying (like the OP did) that it should be illegal. I'm saying that the ethical thing to do is for that person to be upfront.

2 - just because YOU can't see the difference, Charlotte, it doesn't mean everyone feels the same. You are welcome to your view that it wouldn't make a difference to you, but that is clearly (by this thread) that many people feel differently. Everyone should be respected, not just the sex worker. Quite frankly, if that is something they are not willing to publicly disclose, then perhaps they should choose another profession where their rights do not trample the rights of others.

3 - Again throwing out "Trans-phobic" like there is some magical rule that if you don't want to have sex with someone, that makes you "phobic" to them. Once again, I have gay friends who i support fully. And i still don't want to have sex with a man. That doesn't make me homophobic. Similarly, not wanting to have sex with a transexual does not make me trans-phobic. The world is not black and white, there are shades of grey (at least 50, I've heard).

Maybe these clients should find another hobby that doesn’t put them at risk of this kind of exposure?

As a client you have the “right,” I guess, to inquire in any way you want before partaking in an exchange. She can lie or mislead you in many ways, and we all agree that it sucks, and many of us have experienced when an ad, or inquiry misleads us into pulling the trigger.

But you have absolutely no real “rights” here in the true sense of the term, except your consumer rights against fraud. The Classifieds section here is full of bait and switch or misleading menus (etc.). It’s the risk we take. If you feel she committed an act of fraud, call the cops, I guess.

Luckily we have TERB, so the same ‘misfortune’ may not happen to two guys.

 

[managee]

That is absolute, 100%, stinky ass bullshit, and a great example of someone who is taking things to the other extreme. Any straight guy is not going to be comfortable with the thought of having sex with another dude. Any gay guy is going to be uncomfortable with the thought of having sex with a woman. What you are saying is that you are either gay or homophobic. There is no middle ground.

I can be uncomfortable with the thought of me having sex with another dude without being uncomfortable with the thought of my friend Dan having sex with another dude.

Maybe you should consider that YOU are the one that is close minded to other peoples views, relationships and preferences.

You’re wrong.

I’m straight, I’m not into guys, and guys getting gay around me makes me no more uncomfortable than anyone else being overtly sexual around me. I have no interest in joining in, as I’m straight, but I’m certainly not uncomfortable, let alone disgusted by it.

Maybe at one time I was, but like most of my straight friends in those days, I was homophobic... Got woke, lit and chilled the fuck out in the decades since then.

But maybe you’re right. Maybe I’m close-minded to homophobic and transphobic sounding arguments.

Have whatever preferences you want, just don’t be surprised or offended when receiving a label like transphobic if you are one, or say something that makes you sound like one.

===

Again, want to protect your “rights,” ask questions before you commit to an exchange. Know that an ad in the women section on Backpages doesn’t necessarily mean “genetically female.” Speak your truth as a straight man who prefers not to engage sexually with transpeople. Then if you’re still unconvinced, perform a thorough examination before beginning the act.

In a world of fake news and alternate facts, you need to do your own investigations to avoid misrepresentation.

 

[TeeJay]

so when a SP/ refuse to see black clients it is her body and her right but a man refuse to see trans SP he is transphobic that's the theme of this thread

But being anti-trans is still socially acceptable
Being racist is not

 

[TeeJay]

And you glaze right over the fact that someone mentions a trans woman was KILLED by someone pissed off she was trans. This is a different and dangerous situation that puts marginalized people in more danger. An sp declining a client isn’t putting him in danger. Terb members saying we need a list of all trans and post op trans woman against their will for their info is dangerous and possibly illegal if it illicits violence and harassment against them.

But she is not a woman? She is a man who raped another man while pretending he was a she.

 

[managee]

But being anti-trans is still socially acceptable

How is it socially acceptable, or do you mean something else?

It’s incontrovertibly socially unacceptable at this point, and has been for some years now.

But she is not a woman? She is a man who raped another man while pretending he was a she.

Wow. That kind of explains why you would think it’s socially acceptable to be transphobic.

 

[managee]

Well, there is one thing, having a baby. Who knows that day may come when a transwoman may be able to become pregnant, albeit, through medical advancements/technology. Maybe at that point in time attitudes may change towards transgender women.

This always seems like a bit of a double-standard for me. If the difference between a ‘woman’ and a transwoman comes down to a womb which allows her to carry a fetus, what happens when we apply the same standard to the ex of mine who had a hysterectomy last week? Is she less than a woman now?

I’m also not sure attitudes will change then. She was still born genetically male and at some point underwent surgical procedures which changed her sex. Would a surgically implanted uterus, really push this crowd to acceptance, let alone understanding? I doubt it, but you never know.

 

[TeeJay]

How is it socially acceptable, or do you mean something else?

It’s incontrovertibly socially unacceptable at this point, and has been for some years now.



Wow. That kind of explains why you would think it’s socially acceptable to be transphobic.

So in your mind a man raping an SP is bad (and there are many threads on this very forum, where things as simple as not wearing a condom, or engaging in a non-agreed upon act is still considered rape)

Yet of a man (trans-woman) rapes another man (same scenario as above) somehow you think it is ok?

That door can't go both ways
It either is rape or it is not

 

[fall]

Sorry, a bit off-topic but related questions. These "bottom part" operations: how complete they are? I.e., will a trans-women have a real-looking functioning (for sex) vagina with two pair of lips and a clitoris? If yes, will she naturally produce lubrication (i.e., "become wet")? If yes, will this lubrication have a natural "women" smell? Basically, my question is: is it easy to spot a post-op person during DATY?

 

[managee]

So in your mind a man raping an SP is bad (and there are many threads on this very forum, where things as simple as not wearing a condom, or engaging in a non-agreed upon act is still considered rape)

Yet of a man (trans-woman) rapes another man (same scenario as above) somehow you think it is ok?

That door can't go both ways
It either is rape or it is not

Are you serious or are you just trolling at this point?

If the John consented to the sex, which it seems like he did since he found out she was trans AFTER the sex, it wasn’t rape.

Even if he consented under false pretences, it’s still very unlikely to hold up against Sexual Assault laws in our Criminal Code.

Under 265(C), fraud is listed as a situation where consent hasn’t been given. That’s shaky ground, as I imagine you’ll need to prove that transpeople are committing fraud by self-identifying, as opposed to living as their assigned birth gender. Seems unlikely to hold up to a SC challenge, as it contradicts previous rulings on gender and sexual identities.

This would need to stand-up to 265(4), meaning a jury would need to agree that handing over money or willfully engaging in sex is not “consent.”

Put one juror on there that isn’t as likeminded as you, and she walks.

That is if she’s charged in the first place. Would you go to the police for this? There are probably better crusades to attach your name to, but whatever floats your boat.

 

[managee]

Sorry, a bit off-topic but related questions. These "bottom part" operations: how complete they are? I.e., will a trans-women have a real-looking functioning (for sex) vagina with two pair of lips and a clitoris? If yes, will she naturally produce lubrication (i.e., "become wet")? If yes, will this lubrication have a natural "women" smell? Basically, my question is: is it easy to spot a post-op person during DATY?

If I’ve seen this, I didn’t know what I was looking at. I’ve heard if done right they’re “fully functional,” but I’m not sure what that means.

I think Charlotte mentioned she wasn’t able to tell when she saw one post-surgery.

And if they can make masterbaters that feel pretty close (I’m told), I imagine getting it to feel right on the inside isn’t the tough part. Can she self-lubricate or squirt? I doubt it, but I could be wrong.

 

[squeezer]

This is amazing, we are expected to reveal our identities yet we are suppose to suck it up (literally) and enjoy are trans experience we had unknowingly because we were duped into believing it was a born at birth woman which is what some of us evil heterosexual males prefer.

 

[managee]

This is amazing, we are expected to reveal our identities yet we are suppose to suck it up (literally) and enjoy are trans experience we had unknowingly because we were duped into believing it was a born at birth woman which is what some of us evil heterosexual males prefer.

Oh. Sorry.

I didn’t know that she had implored this guy to reveal his birth gender as part of the scenario. I had just assumed she took your sexuality and gender at face-value. I’ve never been asked these questions that would “reveal our identities,” and actively withhold information that identifies me during the exchange, but obviously you have.

Regardless, she didn’t dupe anyone.

You would seem to be duping yourself by denying your feelings for these girls, assuming your level of attraction to her only plummeted when you realized after the fact that she was assigned a different gender at birth. You wanted to have sex with a person born a man, actually had sex with a person born a man, and possibly even paid for the privilege.

If that changes you as a man, so be it. Doubt it would change me. I’m attracted to what I’m attracted to and don’t care what that makes me by anyone else’s definition. That said, to the best of my knowledge I’m not attracted to men, transgender women or transsexual women.

She didn’t wake up in the morning and say “how can I trick a straight man into becoming gay, which for some reason will happen when he has sex with me, a woman.”

She used her assets, natural and unnatural, to lull you into a sale, just as countless deceptively edited ads and profile photos on websites have done to me before. If you found the ad to be misleading, one hopes you’d tell us about it here. TERB is a place for duper’s and dupes... fantasy is part of the game and always has been.

Beyond that, sorry for your luck, Chuck.

===

Still waiting to hear how anyone here would quantify the harm this caused to you, the victim, in this experience in such a way that constitutes the necessity to create a law to prevent it from happening.

 

[Aardvark154]

And you glaze right over the fact that someone mentions a trans woman was KILLED by someone pissed off she was trans. This is a different and dangerous situation that puts marginalized people in more danger. An sp declining a client isn’t putting him in danger.

Charlotte, respectfully, I find it difficult to believe that being up front about being transexual or transgender isn't safer than hiding the information.

We just can't know that... And being open about it can draw psychos to target them as well just for existing. We see it all the time with extremist groups they target people who are out in the open doing something they don't agree with.
. .

Right there is why I don't believe that this is a good comparison. As reprehensible as the conduct of the extremist group is, there is a difference between a street brawl between two diametrically opposed groups, or a group of thugs coming across a person who obviously stands out and assaulting or murdering them, and someone deliberately seeking out an escort based on their advertisement stating that they are Trans for the purpose of assaulting or murdering them (in the later case it would be clearly a premeditated murder).

 

[managee]

Charlotte, respectfully, I find it difficult to believe that being up front about being transexual or transgender isn't safer than hiding the information.

Right there is why I don't believe that this is a good comparison. As reprehensible as the conduct of the extremist group is, there is a difference between a street brawl between two diametrically opposed groups, or a group of thugs coming across a person who obviously stands out and assaulting or murdering them, and someone deliberately seeking out an escort based on their advertisement stating that they are Trans for the purpose of assaulting or murdering them (in the later case it would be clearly a premeditated murder).

I know this was meant for Charlotte, but I’m stuck in an airport and pretty bored.

If a passable transsexual, a situation similar to where Charlotte and the hypothetical guy in the OP couldn’t tell she was a transsexual, advertises as a woman, she doesn’t face violence.

Unless she tells the guy or he finds out somehow.

So she probably keeps her secret to herself, at-least while earning a living as an SP. This is exactly why being transsexual in the sex industry is generally kept a secret.

Unlike being pre-op transgender, which is tough to hide, and a marketable stat to the right men.

===

I was speaking to a cop buddy familiar with the sex industry about this when the ‘serial killer’ stuff came out. He told me the situations, other than street violence, where transpeople face violence as SP’s:

1) She advertises as pre-op or post-op transgender and is or isn’t really passable. Client knows this, is there to beat up and rob transperson. They’re marginalized, cash holding people that don’t present the problem you might have with many pimped women, or if you have moral difficulty beating up genetic females.

2) She advertises as pre-op or post-op transgender and is or isn’t really passable. Client knows this, is into it all during the event then gets violent after the act (usually robbing them as well). VERY crazy closeted guys. Often with history of violence.

3) She advertises as genetically female (no mention of trans) and clearly isn’t passable. He finds out at some point during the experience and gets violent. She may not also get robbed, but sometimes is. Typically happens to a small number of girls, but happens more frequently to the same girl than in #1 or #2.

I truly want to believe #1 or #2 can’t apply to any of us, so let’s ignore those for now.

#3, definitely could be a scenario any of us could find ourselves in during a TOFTT, violence aside. I understand these women are usually well-known to the police, and often pretty clearly suffering from mental health or substance abuse issues. So, if you’re at Hooker Harvey’s or in the Village, or farting around on BP, good luck to ya...

===

If she’s passable to the point of being able to fool/dupe/not raise the suspicions of clients, advertising as genetically female, though fake news, is safer for her than advertising as trans, as she avoids scenario #1 or #2.

 

[IM469]

No one is obliged to give their medical history unless it has a medical impact on the other person such as passable disease. Which is why they don’t accept health cards at bars etc. You all could have been with a trans woman and you wouldn’t even have know it and had an amazing time.

You are assuming post-op (sans penis), I believe we are talking about penis intact. Yes medical history is nice but you should be obliged to answer the request made by the customer and 'sex' is easily determined by the category of the ad he is answering. If I request a slim young asian female - according to your broad brush of acceptable behavior - I could open the door to find a 300 lb 60 year old Polish man in an undersized school outfit and that would be acceptable because he has a good medical history.

Let's put this into your backyard as a buyer. You order your favorite shade of lipstick - you open it up to a completely different shade - disappointed ? You order a skirt and get a pair of pants far too big - disappointed ? I'm sure when you purchase anything with your hard earned cash , you expect exactly what you ordered - guess what - we aren't any different.

 

[canada-man]

No one is obliged to give their medical history unless it has a medical impact on the other person such as passable disease. Which is why they don’t accept health cards at bars etc. You all could have been with a trans woman and you wouldn’t even have know it and had an amazing time.

so you have no problem with bait and switch?

 

[managee]

so you have no problem with bait and switch?

So close to effective trolling. Still....

In no way did she allude to that.

If it’s her in the photo, and airbrushing is subtle, stats line up with reality, and services match her menu, how is that bait and switch?

If she calls herself “DDG” in the ad, and you meet her and disagree, is that bait and switch?

In the OP, John willingly had sex with her. Hardly a sign it was a B&S.

Pre-op or post-op, her gender identity and gender expression rights are protected in Ontario and federally as of 2017, unlike whatever right you feel you have to her medical records, or to live t-girl free while engaging in the sex industry.

If she (any SP you see in the future) won’t provide those records on request, and you still can’t tell what her birth gender is, maybe you should just pass.

Plenty of fish in the sea for a charmer like you.

 

[Jasmine Raine]

I didn't realize this was about an actual encounter reviewed here on TERB. I don't know why I though this was just civilian when I posted.

In this professional setting, I do believe that person has an ethical responsibility to state in her ads that she is trans. Even post-op. There is a higher level of expectation from a professional. I mean it is hard when this industry is not regulated like normal businesses but like any professional in other settings, the bar is always raised from that of civies. Police, for example, should have higher sentences for crimes they commit.

I understand choosing your sexual orientation but clients have the right to choose as well when making their "purchase". I hate putting it like that, but it is what it is.

I will be the first to say that a client has some responsibility in his own appointment but I don't think asking every escort if she is trans should be on his list. This is where the SPs responsibility comes in.

It is certainly deceitful to not disclose to clients. We are not stupid. Clients are looking to hire cis-women. This is the general norm 99% of the time and if they want to venture out to encounters, they will search for that.

In the case of the hobby, with the extra professional standard, yes it should be known first and more so if the client asked directly. If the client asked, and was lied to, that is just wrong on a whole other level.